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Convection - Bagel missing sheen

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varda's picture
varda

Convection - Bagel missing sheen

I have been trying to learn to use my Cadco convection oven.   This  morning, I made a dozen bagels, baked 9 of them in conventional gas oven, and 3 in the Cadco.  

In the picture above, two bagels in back are baked in gas oven, bagel in front in Cadco.   The Cadco bagels came out larger and tastier.   In fact I'd go so far as to say they are the tastiest bagels I've ever made.   But no sheen.   I don't even know where the sheen on a bagel comes from so no clue how to get it here. 

I baked these as follows:   Preheated Cadco to 500F.   Then put bagels in and reduced to 400F with humidity for 10 minutes, and then no steam for 10 minutes more.   The gas oven bagels were baked in 500F oven with no added steam as usual.  

One more question:   I'm also working on baguettes, so this morning I baked two baguettes in gas oven, 1 in Cadco.   As you can see from this picture the scores on the Cadco baguette are completely flat.   I preheated to 500F then decreased to 400 for the bake, again with humidity for first 12 minutes, and none for next 13.   In this case, I sprayed the bagels before putting them in hoping that would help.   No dice.   The flatter profile of the Cadco bagel was because I just proofed it on a tray, and has presumably nothing to do with the oven.

Any suggestions appreciated.   Thank you.

DavidEF's picture
DavidEF

The sheen on bagels, as well as pretzels, is from dipping in a strong Alkaline solution before baking. I think commercial bakers use lye water. I've never made bagels or pretzels, so I'm really no help at all. But, there is a handy-dandy search box at the top right of this page that magically holds all the answers! Give it a try!

Edit: okay, I felt guilty for saying "over there..." so here is a link to get you started.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10877/lye-bagels

varda's picture
varda

with the search function but thanks so much for pointing it out.  -Varda

golgi70's picture
golgi70

The sheen from bagels comes from the boiling which gels the starch on the outside of the bagel.  I don't think the addition of steam is necessary at all.  As to why they have less sheen?  I'm not sure how you boil your bagels but when I do so it's 20 seconds in and then out of the water and into the oven.  It could very well be the dry bake is better for the final product as that is how bagels are traditionally baked.  Well I wouldn't think added steam would retract the sheen so I'm at a bit of a loss here.  But maybe the added steam is messing up the look?  

As for the baguettes.  It looks like your new oven is much more capable of steaming and holding the steam in so i'd reduce the humidity setting from 12 minutes to something shorter and manually vent the oven at the 12 minute mark by opening the doors for a second..  Then you can release the steam and continue baking.  

In a professional steam injected oven we steam for 3 seconds (which is tons of steam which will stay in the deck and more is produced by the loaves themselves) then just open the vents when we want to remove the steam.  So the cadco isn't a professional steam injected oven but maybe its somewhere in between the way you handle steam in a home oven/pro oven?  I'd tinker with decreasing your humidity timing until you are happier.  Too much steam is just as bad as too little.  

Hope this is helpful

Josh

varda's picture
varda

Hey Josh,   I'll try the bagels again in the Cadco without steam.   I was trying to avoid having the bagels dry out before they could expand.   The Cadco puts up a stiff wind which does have a drying effect.   As for the baguettes, I was thinking the same thing.    I didn't realize that with pro ovens you only steam for 3 minutes.   So perhaps I've overdone it.   Thanks for your help.  -Varda

golgi70's picture
golgi70

All looks fantastic

varda's picture
varda

Thank you Josh.  -Varda

bobku's picture
bobku

I make bagels every weekend I found the sheen comes from the baking soda added to the boiling water, try adding more baking soda next time I think you'll see the difference. I don't see the purpose of steaming when baking bagels they are already wet from being dipped in water bath.

varda's picture
varda

Hi bobku.   The point I was trying to make is that the bagels baked in regular gas oven have their sheen - only the ones baked in the Cadco convection  oven don't.   Perhaps the picture doesn't make this as clear as it is in real life.   The Cadco bagels have what I would call a matte finish.  These were both boiled exactly the same way - not with baking soda but with malt syrup.  I'm happy with my boiling method.   The issue is the difference between the two ovens.   The reason I used steam was to counteract convection's drying action.   It worked inasmuch as the bagels expanded very nicely.   But they lost their sheen in the process.   If I try both yours and Josh's suggestion not to steam will they still expand?   Will they have their sheen?   Only the experimental method will work here.  Thanks.  -Varda

bobku's picture
bobku

For a while I was trying to figure out the sheen on bagels I found if don't use any baking soda I get no sheen adding more baking soda seemed to increase the sheen. I also use both malt syrup and baking soda in the water bath. I've only had experience with an electric oven

varda's picture
varda

Well I'll try without setting humidity, and see how that goes.   I've never tried baking soda, but now you've got me curious.   Thanks.  -Varda

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

when you turned off the steam?   To release all the steam?  as in rotating the pan?

Just asking...  

I remember getting a nice sheen with a steam oven...  10 minutes of it too!  

varda's picture
varda

Hi Mini,   I did not open the door.   The convection is very efficient and no need to rotate.   Also, the oven vents itself very efficiently so once you turn the humidity setting down to zero out it goes.   But I am curious as to what steam oven you used.   Deck oven?   This is not that.   Thanks.  -Varda

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It sure was fun while it lasted but rather a small oven.  The fan was not a wind tunnel.  I just thought, that's the difference I noticed.   Steam is invisible but I was amazed when I opened the door, how much stayed in there and didn't vent.  Like the fan on top.   I would roll my oven away from the wall and it had a nozzle I could aim the steam to vent left or right or straight up.  I laughed when you mentioned the condensation on the wall.  I could see my dripping walls from way back then.  Like your oven by the way.  Take notes!  :)

KMIAA's picture
KMIAA

Have you checked You Tube videos regarding Cadco Ovens?  You might get some ideas there if you can find the video you want.

varda's picture
varda

but haven't found anything that helps me with this.   If you see something good please let me know.   Thanks.  -Varda

gerhard's picture
gerhard

Generally you lower the temperature in a convection oven so that could have an effect on how the sugars caramelize during the baking process.

Gerhard

varda's picture
varda

I may just have lowered too much.   Thanks.  -Varda

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

how much better the spring is in the Cadco oven.  The bagel and the baguette are much larger than the ones baked in the gas oven.   You bake at 400 F. which seems low to me  My bagel recipes bake at 450 F with steam for 8 minutes and then 425 F Convection for 8-10 minutes until they color up.   I use baking soda and barley malt syrup in the water till it looks like tea - 20 seconds a side and some BNS in the dough too.

Don't know where the sheen comes from but I'm guessing it's the BMS and BS in the water.  That Cadco really bakes up breads well..

varda's picture
varda

I have been following Hamelman Bread which uses diastatic malt powder in dough and malt syrup in water and no baking soda.   So sounds like I will have to go higher in temp  and shorter (or not at all) on steaming until I hit the sweet spot.  As soon as I get the kinks out, I think this Cadco and I are going to get along great.   Thanks DA.  -Varda