The Fresh Loaf

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Are there any signif. differences between the 1980s DLX's and the new ones?

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Theresse's picture
Theresse

Are there any signif. differences between the 1980s DLX's and the new ones?

Hi there -

A very nice person loaned me his older style DLX (looks like it's from maybe the 80s and on the front reads DLX 9000 - or maybe it says 3000 - hard to tell).  So today I made a triple batch of cookies using whole wheat flour (and some white flour) and adding chocolate chips, peanut butter chips, pecans and almonds. :) Tomorrow I'll try bread.

My assessment so far is that a quadruple batch would be too much (not that I'd want to make that much!) but I think I heard somewhere the newer ones have a slightly larger capacity and can do quadruple batches. I did have to move the arm a few times to find a location that would make it so there'd be contact with the dough or else so that it wouldn't creep over the edge, so I sort of see what they mean when they say it needs some babysitting (it may be that all stand mixers do though...I've never used one before). I could imagine maybe wanting to go higher in speed when I used this older one, but not necessarily and I know the newer models have a bit more power.  I didn't like how because my fingers were oily from the batter, I had a hard time unscrewing the arm to move it (it would slip and I had to grab a paper towel to get it to turn).  Not a deal-breaker by any means.  I also noticed that at one point the dough was creeping up the scraper (!) but that's probably a learning-curve issue - something I was doing wrong.

Starting to make the cookie dough, I got the butter to room temp and used the roller to mix that with the sugar and that took a long time compared to if I'd used a handheld electric mixer or no doubt something like a Kitchen Aid.  Granted the newer ones have the plastic bowl with whisks so that might have been less of a pain to mix up the butter had I had that...but then I'd have to switch bowls once time to add the flour lest the whisk/paddle thingies break.  But e.g. with the Bosch, a separate bowl isn't needed - and having a metal bowl to do both kneading and mixing/whisking is an option.  I'm annoyed that the Ankarsrum forces us to use plastic (and also - I really wish they'd make a stronger cookie paddle so we could also make pie dough).  Oh and before I forget, someone told me to grate cold butter and add it to the flour that way, for pie dough.  Sounds like a real pita to have to do that though.  But that is one way that she said has definitely worked well for her re. pie dough.

As someone else mentioned on another thread, the lack of a dedicated on-off swtich on the older model at least (do the new ones have one?) was a PITA cause I had to either wait for the timer to turn off or else unplug the machine.  I assume they no longer make it that way?

When I made the speed faster or slower, I heard the motor sort of shift in sound each time consistently - like with a slight delay each time.  This is normal for this machine, yes? 

When I'd put all the dough and nuts and chips in the bowl tonight and the bowl was pretty full, I did feel like there was one point when I was pushing the motor (yikes - not my machine!) and I could swear I smelled some sort of mechanical subtle burning type of smell if you know what I mean.  LIke maybe the motor was getting hot?  But it may not have been used for years - not sure if that matters.  I guess my point here is that I've read over and over how nothing beats this mixer in terms of thick thick doughs and durability, but is that really true?  Are the extra watts on the new ones going to get rid of this problem (the feel like I was pushing it)?  I seriously hate the look of the Bosch (and that stupid blender tower everyone's always trying to hide in so many of the pictures, lol) but I didn't get the feeling it couldn't handle it from looking at videos anyway.

I have the question/concern that if this mixer takes a while longer to beat/mix everything up, is that a problem with some recipes that say not to over-mix or over-knead?  Maybe only an issue with pie dough? 

Lastly, I read a comment that someone who used the DLX/Assistent was used to making challah bread that came out dense and now since using the Assistent, it comes out light and fluffy.  Ok clearly that's a good thing but see for me, I get nervous every time I read people talking about the DLX making bread lighter.  Because I like it very dense and moist with a tighter crumb I guess you could say - at least when making sandwich bread and probably a few others.  Like Dave's Killer Bread if any of you know it.  Dense is a good thing.  E.g. when I eat fluffy cake, it's usually from a cheaper Safeway bakery type place.  When I eat heavy, moist, dense cake, it's from a higher-end bakery.  If I were to get an Ankarsrum (Assistent, DLX, Electrolux, Magic Mill, whatever you want to call it) - and don't laugh at such a stupid question - can I still have dense breads or will everything be super light and fluffy all the time?  Hahaha I know I sound ridiculous...

Thank you!!  

Oh one last question!  Anyone have any of those cool colors?

Aaargh - sorry so long!!!

Theresse's picture
Theresse

Going to try mashed potatoes in it and bread of course, too.

Suza's picture
Suza

Don't know if you have made your decision yet, but I know the "pain" you are going through.  I hope some of my observations will help.

I'm a bit frustrated right now.  I have typed responses to your questions - twice - and inadvertently hit a key and lost my post :(  Don't know where they went.  Can't find them, anywhere.

It sounds like we are very similar in our needs - and we are almost neighbors!  My first objective was to facilitate bread baking.  I, too, refuse to pay $4-5 for a loaf of quality bread when I can bake it for much less.  I also suffer from tendinitis and will most likely develop arthritis in the near future.  What I did not know was how hard it would be to choose the "perfect mixer" and the wealth of information afforded us by the Internet.  Wow!

It sounds, from your recent posts, that you are leaning toward the Ankarsrum.  If you are still undecided, here are some thoughts that influenced me and some answers to your questions (which were amazingly similar to mine!)

Mashed Potatoes: Personally, I would not base my decision on mashing potatoes.  We do not eat many mashed potatoes, but I agree with Gary.  The best way is to mash them by hand.  I agree with comments that it would be very easy to over-beat the spuds into a gooey mass.  These mixers are powerful.

Pie Dough: IMO the only way to make pie crust is in the Cuisinart or by very careful hand mixing.  I know the appeal of "a machine that does it all", but I don't believe this translates to "a machine that does it all well".  This might also apply to the many optional attachments these mixers offer.  Where kitchen "real estate" is an issue, this might be a compromise you have to make, but I wouldn't expect these add-ons to perform as well as the (high quality) appliances they are meant to replace.  The blender might perform as well as a $20 stand-alone, but don't expect it to stand up against a Blendtec or Vita-mix.  I have a 20-something yr old Cuisinart DLC7 that is still serving me well (although I did have to recently replace a cracked bowl) and a smaller "Made in France" Cuisinart that I inherited from my step-mom.  I use them for pie crust, pasta dough, and grating large quantities of cheese and vegetables.  These machines were built to be work horses.  I'd hate to see you give yours up.

Attachments: Another factor in my decision was attachments.  Not the optional blender, food grinder, pasta maker, grain mill, etc, but the add-on, "must have" thingies.  The DLX comes with everything you need - SS bowl, roller/scraper, dough hook, whipping bowl, whips, whisks, and bowl scraper.  The Bosch comes with plastic bowl, dough hook, whips and whisks and splash shield.  Optional are cookie paddles (though one vendor is offering these at no charge), SS bowl, SS bowl with attached dough hook and dough glide (to eliminate dough getting into the center column of the regular bowl), bowl scraper ( so you don't have to scrape the bowl as often), mini bowl with dough hook and dough divider (to facilitate smaller batches of bread).  These add-ons, to me, are just remedies to design flaws.  I believe some serious thought went into the original design of the Ankarsrum as it has seen very few changes since the 1940's. 

Ease of Use: For the past 30+ years, my mixer has been a Hobart built KA5SS.  It has been a great mixer, despite its shortcomings in the way of mixing bread dough.  What I don't like about it is the inconvenience of accessing the bowl during mixing.  If you need to scrape the bowl you have to turn it off, lower the bowl, move the splash shield out of the way and then try to get the spatula between the beater and the sides of the bowl.  KA has remedied some of this with the Proline 7 qt mixer, which I understand is more capable of mixing bread, though not in large batches.  The bowl is wider and the splash shield can be removed with the beater in place.  It also has the improved spiral dough hook.  My KA has the old "C" hook with the collar at the top.  The collar was supposed to prevent the dough from riding up the hook.  It I made more than 1 loaf of bread, I was constantly having to stop in the middle of kneading to push the dough down as it got up into the drive shaft.

While testing the DLX, I was impressed with how easily I could access the bowl.  And ingredients did not splash out when added during mixing - no shield needed.  My only problem will be resisting the urge to sticky my hand or a utensil into the bowl while it is mixing :( 

I attended a bread baking workshop recently where a Bosch was used.  Flour splashed out, even with the shield in place.  And, the baker had to stop the machine several times to inspect the progress.  Apparently it is very easy to over process bread dough in the Bosch.

Versatility: During my test of the DLX, I made a couple of batches of bread and one batch of cookies.  I was impressed with the way the roller kneaded the bread; very effective.  I found I had to make a double batch of cookies using the stainless steel bowl and roller/scraper, but the smaller whipping bowl would have worked to cream the sugar, butter and eggs.  Once I get accustomed to the unique way this machine mixes, I feel I can perfect small batches as well.  I know other reviewers have said it does a better job with small batches than the Bosch. 

Babysitting: Comparisons say the DLX requires more babysitting than the Bosch.  I'm not too sure about that.  The demonstrator at the bread workshop mentioned that you really need to watch while mixing bread as it is easy to over knead the dough.  I think, once you get used to how the roller/scraper mixing process works, you can watch the DLX less than stated.  Some have said the bread dough tends to ride up the roller.  This is easily remedied by locking the roller a bit to the left so there is more room for the dough ball to move around the bowl.  Both machines are reported to have very little problem with "walking" even when making several loaves at a time.  Unlike the KA which has been know to walk right off the counter if left unattended.  30+# hitting my tile floor is not what I want :)

Learning Curve: Some shy away from the DLX due to the "learning curve" imposed by its unique method of mixing.  I don't think it will be too difficult to learn.  But, then, I am an intuitive person who has baked enough to know what different doughs should look and feel like.  And, it will be a fun, new adventure.  I believe there is a reason so many kitchens in Sweden have been and still are using the Assisent/Original/DLX.

Switch: I believe I am the one who mentioned the lack of a dedicated on-off switch.  I don't know if the older machine I tested lacked this function, or I just wasn't setting it properly.  I did get it to stay on all the time by turning it just a bit to the on position, but there wasn't a definite "click" when it was on.  I read the manual for the new version, and it states there is an "on" position as well as a "timed" on function. 

Durability: I have seen both machines and the DLX is by far the most durably built.  And most aesthetic.  I chose an orange one to match my "Flame" Le Creuset pots.  To me, the Bosch just looked like another white plastic countertop appliance.

In answer to a couple of other questions you had:

Which machine is best for different hydrations of bread?

I can't really say, as I have not used the bread hook in the DLX and haven't used the Bosch.  I do know that mixing bread with the roller/scraper in the DLX requires less flour to properly develop the gluten.  If I'm correct, less flour results in a chewier, moister bread as opposed to the drier product that results from adding more flour as is needed in the Bosch.  At any rate, you do have the option of either a dough hook (which is supposed to be better stiffer dough) or the roller/scraper, for softer dough with the DLX.  I have never baked according to hydration.  For one, the humidity in Oregon is so variable, it's rather a moot point.  I rely more on the look and feel of the dough, experience and gut feeling.

Off subject, but you asked about grinding your own flour:

At first I was skeptical.  Flour is flour - right?  Well, we did a taste comparison at the bread baking workshop and the same bread, made with fresh ground flour tasted so much better.  This led me to do some research.  As with the purchase of a bread mixer, I've go to justify spending that kind of money on another kitchen machine :)  All I can say is this:  Check out the Bread Beckers website.  I'm not a fanatic on health, but when Sue Becker (a certified nutritionist) tells how the nutritional value of wheat drops within 24 hrs of grinding and to only 10% of the original value after 72 hrs, I was hooked. She presents so much other information like what is actually in "whole wheat" bread off the grocery shelf.

Well, I hope you haven't already ordered your mixer and that this info helps.  Please let me know if you have any other questions.  Either the Bosch or the DLX are quality machines.

 

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

What an absolutely wonderfully informative post. If only more posts in all the various forums were as good.

cheers,

gary

Suza's picture
Suza

Thanks, Gary.  It sounds like you have used your DLX extensively.  I'll most likely have questions for you, once mine arrives and I've had a chance to do some baking with it.

Susan

 

Theresse's picture
Theresse

You ROCK! :)  Thank you so much for going into such detail.  Glad I'm not the only one who has a lot to say/ask! ;)  Where are you located if you don't mind my asking?  I'm in Portland in the Irvington neighborhood.  Yes our humidity's all over the place.

Did you get yours yet?  I assume so since you said you chose orange.  WAY cool color.  I have the Le Crueset pots too (well, only a couple) but they're not kept out so no one sees them most of the time.  I'm stuck between cream and pink and even light blue has my attention (okay as does matte black).  Damn I'm screwed in the color department!  Oh and did I mention I also like green?!!!  There's actually a new cream color out but it's not in the u.s. yet - it's called "light creme."  It's a bit less yellow.  I'll tell you a fabulous "secret" I just discovered.  I could buy the mixer at Sur La Table which offers it over the website only.  They have a 1 year no-questions-asked full-refund return policy.  Ahem.  Yeah.  Uhuh.  That's right.  And if it needs to be returned for any reason it could be returned locally which means no shipping.  Uhuh, that's right too.  I could also in theory order a couple of colors, peek inside the box to see which one I like and then return one without ever really opening it up.  I think that would be fair for them to sell it as new in that case but I'm not sure if that's truly fair since they wouldn't actually know if I'd dropped it for instance (?).

Re. the hydration issue I just want to make sure I can have that dense, closed-crumb kind I like so much.  Sounds like I could, but no one has actually verified that yet.  I'm too inexperienced with bread to know (e.g. is it a matter of how long or roughly it's kneaded or about how much flour or what).

I don't mind a learning curve - as long as I eventually learn it!  Space is an issue in my kitchen.  It's a hundred-year-old kitchen and I'm one of the only people in the whole damned neighborhood who hasn't expanded it and torn out the wall between it and the mudroom, making a larger room.  My cupboards are as old as well (and beautiful, I might add).  I use a Cuisinart food processor for pie dough and of course chopping/grating, and a Vitamix (would never want anything else) for blending.  I've been using an electric hand mixer for whipped cream and mashed potatoes.  While I don't mind having to use the DLX mainly for bread and cookie dough only, I sure like the idea of being able to get rid of one of the other space-hoggers if the DLX could do so but it sounds like it simply can't.  Or, it sounds like if it could replace anything it would be the smallest appliance which is the handheld mixer which doesn't take up much space as it is.  Re. the Bosch, people have had great success using the cookie paddle for pie dough and the food-processing attachment (either slicer-shredder or else the tiny food processor that goes over the blender tower) for food-processing which can include pie dough.  But that said, I'm sure its food processor can't hold a candle to a dedicated Cuisinart.  Oh, to have a big kitchen (and a fat wallet)!

For me, this all started from guilt, which is so funny cause I'm so prone to it.  I feel so stressed out and distracted (long story) from my kids and I've been wanting to be a better mom.  I don't want them to grow up and say "my mom didn't cook enough" haha.  I want them to come home and smell baking bread or cookies more often than they do (almost never).  Health is a concern in general, meaning all those carbs and sugar wouldn't be good... blah blah we've heard it all.  But they eat healthily for the most part and besides I can choose to make VERY healthy bread as you know.  Even the cookies I made last night were whole wheat and they loved them.  The whole baking thing is just something all kids have the right to experience and remember about their mother, I feel like. ;)

I would absolutely love to eventually do the wheat berry grinding at home.  Where on earth I'd put that thing is beyond me though!!!  Maybe on top of the fridge?!

I took a picture of the older style DLX sitting on my counter which I'll upload and show you later.  I think I could leave it there permanently if the new one's not too much bigger!  I read 19" deep and that just can't be right.  That would be massively, massively huge.  I think that was a typo on the website I was reading.

Thanks again!!

Suza's picture
Suza

Hi, Theresse

I just checked my e-mail.  My new, orange Assistant left Troutdale at 1:05 this morning and was loaded on the truck at North Bend at 7:30.  Needless to say, I am anxious.  My husband said I can have it before Christmas; Wednesday is his birthday, so I threatened to give it to him for a present so I could make his cake!  My ploy worked :)

We live in Bridge, a small rural community about 50 miles west of Roseburg and 40 miles SE of Coos Bay on Hwy 42.  I'm not real familiar with Portland.  I know how to get to IKEA, Powell's, and Clackamas Town Center.  One of my sons and his family live in Sandy where he teaches 7th grade science; my youngest son lived in the Hollywood Dist for a year when he was between undergrad and grad school at OSU.  We tend to stay close to home.

I ordered my mixer from Pleasant Hill Grain, as they were highly recommended on this (or other ?)forum.  I ordered mine last Thursday; it was shipped the same day and will receive it today.  5 days from Nebraska.  Not bad!   Prior to my purchase, I corresponded, via e-mail, with PHG customer service.  They were very courteous and answered my questions well.  I also purchased my grain mill from them (Komo Classic). They are an authorized dealer for Komo, but also sell Wonder Mill, Nurtimill as well as all kinds of other kitchen goodies.  They have a 30 day, no questions asked, return policy.  That's long enough for me to decide if I like it, but I'm sure I will.

Storing the grain mill is not so much of a problem.  It measures 8Lx8Wx14H and sits nicely on the shelf at the end of the kitchen island.  It's beautiful, so needs to be out on display!  I have a pic, but can't seem to imbed it :(

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r753/suzahuff/Kitchen%20Living/Komo_zpsc999bd6e.jpg

What you do need to consider is where you will store the wheat.  I buy mine from Azure Standard.  They drop ship close by, once a month.  Our kitchen includes a large, walk-in pantry where I store different types of wheat berries in 5 gal buckets.

When choosing a grain mill, I knew I wanted an electric.  I looked at Wonder Mill, Nurtimill, and Komo (my son has a Komo).  Differences are: 

1) the first two are steel burr while the Komo is stone

2) Komo price is higher

3) Komo is a bit quieter than the impact mills, and seems less messy during grinding.

I chose the Komo because it would produce a wider range of grinds from very fine flour to coarse ground oats (like steel cut).  And I looks good.  It will not, however, grind popcorn (as the other two can) but you can grind regular corn.

One thing I need to add about the Assistent: I discovered (don't recall where) that the plastic whipping bowl contains BPA, but it is being replaced, sometime the end of this year, by a non-BPA bowl.  I asked PHG about this and they confirmed my belief.  Rather than wait for the new bowl to be offered with the machine :( I went ahead and ordered one now.  PHG has agreed to e-mail me when the new bowls are available and I can purchase one for $25.  Good to have an extra and I can dedicate the BPA bowl for whipping egg whites.

I don't know what to tell you about how to produce your desired chewy sandwich loaf.  Like you, I am not an expert.  I suppose it has a lot to do with gluten development and the type of flour used.  I would check with your local extension service and see if there is someone who can coach you or suggest some workshops.  Do you know any avid, seasoned bread bakers?  It would be nice to have one-on-one, hands on training; someone to look at the bread and tell us what to do to achieve our goal.  Or, perhaps a local bakery.  Have you visited Dave?  Just kidding.  He might not want to give out his secrets :)  I have been successful at producing what I would call a chewy, moist sandwich bread. The problem with my baking is, I tend to experiment, but without a good scientific approach.  I need to get my DIL to bake with me.  She's the scientist in our family and would keep tabs on what she did and the results.  One hint: do you add vital wheat gluten to your whole wheat bread?  I find this improves texture as well as rise.  The amount depends on the protein content of the flour (that's where the gluten is).  I usually add about anywhere from 1 tsp to 1Tbsp per loaf, the larger amount if the bread is 100% whole wheat.

I also purchased a 2# bag of King Arthur Flour Harvest Grain Blend

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/harvest-grains-blend-2-lb

It costs a bit ($10), but you apparently use just a small amount.  I haven't tried it yet, but am hoping to get something like Dave's Good Seed or Power Seed bread.  I looked on DKB website, and they give an ingredient list for each bread.  Maybe this will help.  I'll report back and let you know what I come up with.  Have you had any luck with making a "moist, chewy, seedy bread"? 

Good luck with your mixer purchase.   And, potentially a grain mill too :)  There's always room for another appliance in the kitchen.  BTW: I'd love to see your 100 yr old one.  Hope you can get a pic posted.  I need to inquire as to how to imbed photos.  I've done this on other forums, but no success here yet.

Happy Baking

Susan

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Theresse,  I have only had my DLX for a short time, but I have done whole wheat bagels which are very dense and dry at around 58% hydration ( IIRC ) and have made some fabulous ciabatta closer to 95% hydration .  I have not found a hydration that gives the DLX a problem.  I also tried mixing a soaker that was only 1 cup of flour and the DLX had no problem, so small batches are not an issue.  I had the Bosch Universal, and have the Concept, and they both use dough hooks with the same design as the Universal Plus.  For very small amounts of dough, or even much larger amounts with very high hydration like ciabatta, the dough will wrap around the center column and the hooks will barely touch it.  I was never able to make my whole wheat ciabatta with 450 grams flour, and nearly that much water, in the Universal, and could do no better in the Concept with the American Heavy duty dough hook.  ( the Concept also has a different dough hook which solves the column wrap problem )    So, which the Bosch Universal Plus is great a making most typical hydration breads, and is plenty strong for full time kneading, I am a big fan of the Assistent because I haven't met a combination of size or hydration that stumps it.

As to grinding wheat, hopefully you have a garage.  Most grinders make a very loud racket - the impact grinders make a loud motor whine until you dump in the berries, then the noise increases dramatically when they explode the wheat berries.   Stone grinding motors are usually induction motors which can be quieter, but once they start grinding, the noise is extremely loud.   I can't swear the taste is that much better, but do a google search on the health benefits of home ground whole wheat and you will be a convert.  You may wonder why store bought whole wheat is not as good, and the answer is that they don't refrigerate it, so the take out the things that would spoil, which in turn decreases the health benefits.  There is a separate forum here on grinding, and you will find lots of info there on different machines.  

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

This really  belongs on one of  your other threads, but what the hey!

Last night I made a sour dough starter consisting of 60g (20%) bread flour, 15g (5%) white rye, 60g (20%) water and 15g* of 100% hydration mother right out of the fridge. I let it mature overnight at room temp (~73℉).

Today I added the rest of the water (127g) to the starter and the IDY (3g 1%) kicker and mixed it in the DLX with the roller against the rim at a medium high speed for maybe 30sec.Not much, is it?Notice the both roller and scraper rest on the bowl's floor.

The balance of the flour (225g) and the salt (6g 2%) were whisked together and dumped into the bowl. The arm was adjusted so the roller was ~½in from the bowl. Mix for 2 or 3 minutes at low speed until it all comes together. Then raise the speed to medium-low, dial at the 3 o'clock position, and knead for ~8 minutes, give or take. You want a strong gluten development for sandwich bread.All come together and ready to raise the speed and develop some gluten.

I think this is the first time I've made so little dough in the mixer, but I wanted to show you the DLX's capabilities. Since I don't have pans for so small a loaf, I shaped as an oblong loaf and baked on the stone. Hole size depends on hydration to some extent and mostly on your shaping methods. I broke the bubbles up pretty well and shaped firmly. Notice there's no place for the jelly to drip through.

I usually make an enriched dough  for shelf life and to soften the crust, but my oh my does this ever taste good. I may need to eat faster. ;-)

Total dough:

  • 300g flour (95% bread flour, 5% white rye) About 2 cups
  • 187.5g water (62.5%)
  • 6g salt (2%)
  • 3g IDY (1%)

cheers,

gary

* The amount is small enough that I ignore its value in relation to the total dough. If you want to be fastidious about it, its flour is 10% of the  starter flour.

Theresse's picture
Theresse

Thank you so much for explaining all that, Barry and Gary!  

Barry, I've heard that about the wetter doughs not working well with the Bosch (didn't care much though as my main intent was to make lower-hydration doughs but you never know - I might change my mind at one point so why not get one that does both?)!  That's great that you were able to make whole wheat bagels!  I'd love to see a picture of anyone's bagels - any kind - after using the DLX.  So curious if they come out like the good ones e.g. from New York.  We had a great bagel shop here in Portland and all my East coast friends raved that they were the closest Portland had ever had to N.Y. bagels but then they got bought out by another company who changed the recipe back to mediocre at best!  Everyone's upset about it lol.  So it would be fun to try to make them the proper way, not that I really know it myself, being a NW native.  I didn't realize the flour mills are so loud!  The one that I keep getting drawn to is the NutriMill.  That one really loud too?  

Gary, Mmmm that looks really yummy.  Those pics are really helpful, thank you (as well for the recipe)!  I've yet to read the bread books I bought (well I bought one a while back which is The Bread Bible and then just got as a gift the one called Flour Water Salt Yeast).  That makes sense, what you wrote about how it's not just hydration but how well you get the air out of the dough.  So is it fair to say that the faster one sets the speed for kneading, the more dense the (less holes) the bread will be, or am I wrong about that?  I think I'd read that about the Bosch - that because it's so tough and fast and powerful, it produces a finer crumb.

That brings up something else I read in the past that had me worried about one last thing about the DLX - though please understand I may have misunderstood what I read or I might have read it on the pizza forum which has a bias toward the Bosche's.  I read that - yes I think on the pizza forum - that these people weren't able to get a good enough window pane which was required for their perfect pizzas.  I know you mentioned getting a strong gluten development for sandwich bread but have you been able to get good window pane as well (if there's even any difference) with the DLX?

Thanks!

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Theresse,  I think there is some confusion about the window pane issue with respect to pizza dough.  While there are numerous recipes and methods for making pizza dough, it is pretty common to use a retarded proof for pizza dough, often up to 4 or 5 days.  As a result, many pizza dough recipes don't want you to develop much gluten in the mixing, and don't want a window pane.  Instead, the gluten develops over time in the bulk retardation.  At this post, Scott describes his method for a New York style dough with a 2 day cold bulk fermentation, which I have made and it is very good, and he suggests that coming out of the mixer it should look like cottage cheese, and that windowpaning is too far http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639.

Either the Bosch or Dlx, or even a KA with smaller amounts of flour, will have no problem getting a window pane in a suitable dough.  When you read Flour Water Salt and Yeast,  he does not use a mixer, and instead uses what he calls a pincer method to mix and stretch the dough.  Don't let anyone know you are reading FWSY, or they may question why you are buying a mixer at all ( just teasing )  

Theresse's picture
Theresse

That was very helpful, thank you! 

Ok duly noted about the book! ;)

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

"That makes sense, what you wrote about how it's not just hydration but how well you get the air out of the dough.  So is it fair to say that the faster one sets the speed for kneading, the more dense the (less holes) the bread will be, or am I wrong about that?"

It's not so much about getting rid of the bubbles of CO₂ as it is about making the larger bubbles into a lot of small bubbles. This is especially true of the shaping process. The sandwich bread target is a goodly supply of gas in thousands of tiny, evenly spaced bubbles vs the same amount of gas in fewer, larger and unevenly spaced bubbles for a country or 'artisan' loaf. If I had made double the amount of dough, I could have divided and shaped one half to have fewer, larger holes, and one as sandwich bread with more, smaller holes. Both loaves would have about the same volume, but the character of each crumb would be quite different from the other.  For better results, though, I would have kneaded the country loaf for less gluten development by kneading for less time. I would not change mixer speeds.

Regarding gluten development: It  is my experience that the DLX will reach a given level of gluten development in less time than the KA, Or for the same kneading time, will reach a fuller degree of development. I cannot compare to the Bosch, big or little. The DLX will develop gluten to the full extent the flour is capable.

cheers,

gary

Theresse's picture
Theresse

Ohhh... fascinating!  Thank you - I love all this info I'm learning!

Suza's picture
Suza

For anyone looking to purchase an Ankarsrum mixer: According to this vendor, the Ankarsrum Original is now available in the new "crème" color.  They also are selling, at a $75 discount, the previous version, Assistent Original.  I don't believe there are significant changes from the Assistant to the Ankarsrum, other than the name and available colors, but that would be a question to ask.

Theresse's picture
Theresse

What vendor?  I know one place that is (or was, the other day) selling their last Assistent in white for $100 off.  Are you referring to the canadian company?  Cause as far as I know, no one in the U.S. has the new cream color yet (?).  That's the one I'm leaning toward - I was afraid the regular cream was too yellow looking (in some pics it is).  The new "light creme" is a typical cream without as much yellow and I think the combination of the warms and cools looks nice.  I wish wish wish I could see these colors in person! : - /

Suza's picture
Suza

It is the Canadian company that says they have the new crème models in stock

http://jalyns.ca/

Not sure what shipping would cost to US.

Mine just arrived this afternoon.  Yes, DH had me open it, immediately

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r753/suzahuff/Kitchen%20Living/P1040359_zps613f1696.jpg

Whew, glad that's done!  Now I can get down to some serious baking :)

I know what you mean about wishing you could see the actual color.  I was hesitant, about choosing a color.  I was beginning to think white or black would be safe, but then figured I could always return it for exchange, if the color wasn't what I wanted.  But then I asked PHG and they said the orange would be a great match for my Le Creuset "Flame" pots.  The were right.  It's perfect.

 Hold out for the new crème color you want.  Did you check with Pleasant Hill Grains to see if they have one?  Shipping is free!

Good luck.  I'll let you know how the bread comes out.

Susan

Theresse's picture
Theresse

Hi Susan - yes about a week ago I called all around (Breadbeckers and Pleasant Hill etc.) after first seeing that light creme color on the Jalyns website - which I think I was led to after seeing a notably lighter color from googling images!  At first I thought I was imagining things but then I was sure the color was different!  Nope - no one did except the Jalyns. 

So..... I did it today!! : - /  I took the plunge!  I splurged.  I made the leap of faith.  I...well you get the picture.   Light creme it is!

Theresse's picture
Theresse

I don't know how long it will take to get to me.  She thought maybe 4 or 5 days IF there's not a delay at the border.  10 at the most.  Lynn at Jalyns was so friendly and helpful, I gotta tell you.  Really excellent customer service there.  Ashley at Bread Beckers was very helpful too.  Such nice people connected to this mixer, lol. 

All that said, as I was saying on the gardenweb forum (where I've also been discussing this), I feel gross about being so self-indulgent when I think about what's going on in the Philippenes.  I hope anyone reading this will seriously consider how quick and painless it is to donate to the Red Cross if you haven't already.  Every little bit helps - even $10.00:

https://www.redcross.org/donate/index.jsp?donateStep=2&itemId=prod4650031

Thank you!

Suza's picture
Suza

Theresse: Glad you are finally getting your mixer.  I know you are going to love it! 

One thing that has changed over the older models, at least the one I used, is that the control knobs are no longer back lit.  This makes it harder to see the speeds and times on the knobs.  I checked with PHG to make sure the knobs were not supposed to be lit (in case it was a defect in my machine), and they said "no, they are not back-lit".  I did discover, when my kitchen lights are on, I can see the controls quite well, as the setting markings are reflective.  Once I get used to this, it will be fine.

I'm waiting for wheat berries to arrive tonight from Azure, so haven't tried bread yet, but I did make a birthday cake for DH.  I used the "single wire" cake whips with the whipping bowl.  It did a great job with no flour splashing out like with my KA.  The recipe, from The Pioneer Woman, was different that any I have ever made.  Instead of creaming the butter and sugar, you melted butter, cocoa powder and water and boiled them briefly, adding buttermilk and then pouring this warm mixture into the combined dry ingredients, mixing until blended.  The cake is very moist and fudgy.  I froze it for tomorrow.  It will be frosted with chocolate whipped cream.  Should be good (considering the amount of calories it has!).

Enjoy your new mixer when it arrives.  I like the crème color; glad you found one!