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Just payin' my dues...KA vs Bosch

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Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

Just payin' my dues...KA vs Bosch

So when I tripped and fell in the back yard and messed up my shoulders, the least of my worries was what brand of mixer to use to make the Swedish Tea Rings at Christmas for my family. Never, never start a tradition with sweet bread...

The KA 600 Pro I got is growling and snapping, so I call the warranty seller and, after veiled threats, they honor the current warranty (full replacement) rather than the warranty taking force in December ( 75% of purchase price). So much for KA's fabled warranty. Gone. "So sorry, not my problem".

So I buy the Bosch Universal Plus. I'm male, need more power. To make my two loaves of whole wheat per week, fed through the Brod&Taylor folding proofer in a perfect man oriented process. And the Swedish Tea Rings on my cut down cooling racks on carriage bolt legs to do two at once.

Problem: the Bosch U P won't knead two loaves...7-8 cups flour. Now what? The new (after market) small batch set up http://www.fykitchen.com/Details.cfm?ProdID=1690 ? Void my warranty? Break the plastic hook with Bob's Red Mill flour?

Any suggestions out there? I come before you as a neophyte pleading for help from the gurus.

Tom

 

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

I haven't used a BoschUP, but I don't recall hearing of problems with so little flour (about 3# of low hydration dough?). I trust someone will pop up and help you around whatever is causing the issue.

If it happens your mixer is not fit for your use, an alternative is the DLX/Assistent, which will easily handle twice that amount of flour at just about any hydration level. I just know that's what you were hoping to hear.

cheers,

gary

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

I took it as the amount of flour is too little for the Bosch to knead effectively, not too much.

gary.turner's picture
gary.turner

As I re-read the OP, I believe you're right. I am just as surprised that small amounts of dough  are an issue. Well, I'll shut up now.

cheers,

gary

pjkobulnicky's picture
pjkobulnicky

So why not just use the factory bowl and metal dough hook? If it is too little dough, make double. The Bosch is fairly powerful and should knead that dough.

 

Paul

Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

Thanks for the feedback.

I should admit I'm frugal, OK, cheap. I haven't tried a two loaf batch of bread because I hate wasting food. Thanks Ma and Grandma. Let me try it and I'll get back here with results.

I had a fine, repeatable process with the KA until it cried foul. Two loaves of whole wheat and bad gears. Then KA's extended warranty people tried to avoid honoring their warranty.

My challenge is finding a warm place in a centrally heated, gas oven house to raise bread. The folding proofer solved that but two loaves is it's limit. Gas oven gets too hot and cools quickly.

I'll try a two loaf and report back.

 

Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

Well I got two loaves out of the Boxch with my normal recipe. The kneading was as expected, the dough hung onto the dough hook as much as the dough hook kneaded the dough. If that makes sense. The mixer is designed for larger batches, no doubt. Anything less dense than Bob's Red Mill flours will probably not work.

So double batches it is. Cinnamon rolls for everybody.

I sure would like a quality review of the after market small batch dough hook ( link above). The only info I found said two but not three and I suspect the hook isn't sturdy. For $80 I want sturdy.

Any body with suggestions kindly post them.

fotomat1's picture
fotomat1

I had the same problem with small batch dough in the Bosch. I switched to the stainless bowl with the dough hook on the bottom. No more complaints ,no more PIA center post, no more dough creep and good for 2 to 6 loaves. IMHO it is the only solution but at the cost of 140 it puts the price of the complete machine close to the Electrolux. I thought and still think it was worth the investment...perfect results from high hydration to bagels!!

FreshGoose's picture
FreshGoose

Does the KA Pro 600 really suck that bad? I was considering getting it. 

Pilot baker's picture
Pilot baker

you need an attachment called the "dough divider".  I have a bosch mixer and have used it to make very small batches with awsome results.  You can get it at pleasanthillgrains.com or anywhere that sells bosch and it will make ur mixer awsome!  i also use it for large batches and it cuts the kneading time in half.

incidently, I haven't used my bosch since getting a kitchenaid commercial 7 quart mixer (nothing like the pro600 junk).  it's a really stout, quiet, qnd efficient machine that the whole family enjoys using! Model ksm7586p.

good luck with the bosch and hope this solves your problem.  Bosch makes a really reliable machine that should last you for ever!

FreshGoose's picture
FreshGoose

I am looking at the Pro 600.  Is it really Junk?  Also is this the commercial as well?

http://www.kitchenaid.com/shop/-[KSM7581MS]-401496/KSM7581MS/

I know this model is not NSF certified but it seems pretty similar.  Which do you have?

Pilot baker's picture
Pilot baker

The pro 600 is junk. Period.  Don't get it unless u only make cake.  

I have the ksm7586p candy apple red.  Same as ksm7581 but has 5 yr warrany, ksm7581 has a 1 yr warranty I believe.  According to kitchenaid they are identically the same machine, cept the 7586 is the newest model with a better warranty.  

I have noticed u can buy the ksm7581 on ebay for 399 which is a pretty good deal!  

I would suggest these machines to any breadmaker.  The design is unbelievably quite, strong, and efficient.  I believe it will last forever.  they are called the proline but they're same as the kitchenaid commercial models ksm7990 and ksm8990 used by bakeries and such.

finally kitchenaid got it right!

good luck!

FreshGoose's picture
FreshGoose

Great advice.  I went ahead and went with the pro line.  Didn't even know it existed since they don't show up under regular stand mixers on the KA site.  Hopefully it's good.

chris319's picture
chris319

A mixer for the home is supposed to be white, period. White is the only acceptable color. An exception can be made if it is a heavy-duty mixer available only in gray or a metallic finish. Candy-apple red -- I'm afraid not. It's a home, not a whorehouse. You don't live in a whorehouse, do you? No, you don't. Candy-apple red is OK for a race car or a dragster, not a mixer.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I remember when my Mom's Hamilton-Beach White was replaced with a shiny stainless version.  We found out that the dusty layer of white flour on the mixer kept us busy.  We probably didn't see it on the white machine and cleaned it less often. 

Colours are great!  Inspirational and stimulating.  Colours don't make a whorehouse, people do.  The modern race cars are so plastered with advertising, their original colour is covered up.  If we are talking classic colours, don't forget Coka-cola (Santa Clause) '64 cherry red mustangs and fire extinguishers.   I've had white mixers, orange, navy blue and beige.  Orange was my favourite, I made simple repairs on it three times and it always seemed to find its way back to me over the years.  (long travel story)  New choices include black and red, classic colours and like cars, the darker colours show the dust more.  Didn't I see a Pearl finish once?  With a carnival glass bowl?  OR was I only dreaming?

Perhaps many mixers are tied to the colour of the bowl.  White glass or plastic and stainless steel.  I've had coloured mixer bowls but the easiest ones to see ingredients inside were either clear glass, white, off white or metal.  Mixers would then be coloured to match their bowls?  That is one reason I suspect the larger machines tend not to drift too far into different colours.  So they match the kitchen when the wall paper gets changed or match the major appliances.   More variety is seen in hand held mixers and smaller machines.  I love the look of red mixers by the way and think they say more to celebrate the work done with them than to say they have sex for sale.  You may be over sensitive to a narrow interpretation of the colour red.  

Excerpt from the just thought of mystery in progress, "Crime on Sourdough Lane" ....

Detective Gray ponders on the now dark long drive back to district office...

...thoughts kept coming back, the baker, something suspicious about the baker, the red mixer.  Where did it come from? Mom's was white. But this red one, It had a hold of my very soul, the red mixer held the secret to the puzzle, the tell tale heart beating like a beacon fixed on cold granite.  What had happened in this room?  What witness giveth this scarlet batter beater?  

A well of heat quickly rose throughout her body as she thought about the mixer speeds, the turning of sweetness in it blades.  One flick of the window switch let the cool night pour into the sedan as she loosened her jacket and scarf watching the steam clear off the windshield.  Darn these hot flashes!  I will put off buying a red mixer until they settle down.  

Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

Ah yes, the lure of candy apple red...my first girl wore candy apple red lipstick or she wore nothing at all...

Meanwhile, the stainless bowl with dough hook would be marhvelous, but blows the budget (any body else here with a budget?). The dough divider is somewhere in the USPS system.

KA will earn a new look from me when the 5 year warranty is in place for all their mixers. I got a mixer to mix stuff, not to shop warranty's and argue color. The KA Pro lasted 20 months and the extended warranty company KA sold the business to was less than honorable up front, but eventually did the right thing. The new extended warranty on a Pro, and I suspect other top of the line products, ain't what I want.

As a side note, under my warranty settlement the KA Pro 600 is sitting on my workbench. Awaiting repairs. Did I mention I'm frugal? And I fix stuff.

This repartee is fun, but to return to my original post: has anyone added the plastic dough hook to their Bosch Universal Plus mixer?

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Tom, sorry there was some slippage off your question.  Here are some tests with the dough hook and bowl http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23760.msg243354.html#msg243354  - note that there are 2 pages on that.    There have been a number of posts on the metal bowl with hooks at the bottom -  it can handle all volumes.  Your experience, however, is different than mine ( I had the Universal - which is essentially the same bowl, and have the Concept , which is similar, but different hooks )     While I had problems with the Universal and small amounts of dough - I was using 200 grams of bread flour, which is less than a cup and a half, and had the wrapping around the column problem http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25855.msg260516.html#msg260516   I had no problems with a standard size loaf - and used primarily whole wheat ( The KABF was just for test purposes)  When you say it won't knead 7-8 cups of flour - what do you mean?  Does it wrap around the center column and just sit there?   If so, it is probably too high a hydration,  not too small a batch.  One workaround, suggested by Hamelman, it to withhold some of the water, knead it in the machine until you get a window pane, then add the remaining water and give a short mix, since you have already developed gluten.  I have used that in making a very wet ciabatta, and it works well.  If instead of wrapping around the column, it just isn't mixing, are you adding the water first, and then adding the flour bit by bit?  The Bosch likes it that way, and if you do it in reverse, the outside of the dough is very dry and it just slides around the bowl and doesn't get any mixing action.  With the water first, the outside of the dough is sticky, and the hooks stretch it and turn it over as they go around, which gives the kneading action.   I don't use her method, but in this video, she kneads a whole wheat with just over 8 cups of flour - starts at about 3 minutes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7miu8n0Yf2A     Here is a video of someone kneading 4 cups in a Universal - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fod_ClAGhk&noredirect=1    the video isn't that great, but you can see it is a pretty well kneaded ball.   I am pretty sure you don't need the small bowl and plastic hooks for 6 to 7 cups of whole wheat flour.  You should be good to go with what you have. 

 

Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

Thanks barry. That 's the response I was looking for. I'll need to read it a couple times and look up hydration, but apparently my fears were unjustified.

I bought a 10 lb bag of Gold Metal unbleached to play with so I can save the Bob's Red Mill flour.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions. Even the candy apple trip to left field!

Bob Marley's picture
Bob Marley

I hear that the Ankarsrum Mixer (aka Electrolux) is a monster.  Really well designed for dough mixing and kneading.  My KA 600W "Pro" mixer bombed out just before the warranty expired.  Were I to get anything similar to that one, I'd get a Hobart N50, 5QT mixer and not a Kitchen Aid.

Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

After struggling through "customer service" lines and google searches, I sent an email to the lady I bought the Bosch U P from and sang my sad story.

She said "send the recipe and I'll try it". Over the weekend and here comes an email with a slightly modified recipe and high domed golden brown loaves.  Five small loaves from the two loaf recipe.

Fred, we have lift off. Or at least she does.

I have run three batches and I suspect my yeast is bad, even though I have tested it twice. My loaves just don't get the 1 inch (or more) oven bounce I expect.

I have two packages of Red Star and one SAF , all current stock, and tested recently. I might have to make a pilgrimage to Bob's Red Mill for the high priced stuff.

Maybe baking is  women's work.

Please forgive me for my Duck Dynasty moment.

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

Do you see the dough double in size during the bulk fermentation?  If so,  I doubt the yeast is a problem.   IIRC, you are working from a recipe that used to work for you,  and you have a proofer,  so times and temps should be the some. Are there any changes other than mixer?  Have you changed the size of the pan or the flour?

Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

Well, sorta yes, sorta no. The Pillsbury recipe I have been using is a typical mix-knead-rise-punch down shape-rise-bake. The Bosch recipes mostly follow a add sugar to warm liquid and let yeast activate-add dry ingredients-mix/knead-shape/rise and bake procedure.

That makes some sense, I hope, the process skips the first fermentation. The process is across the map with Bosch utube video. Makes me wonder, to say the least, why the vendor's loaves came out brown and round.

I have three samples of yeast: they all test out fine... I have a gas oven, vendor has a convection electric oven.

The attempts I make are edible, so I have lots o' bread. Just none with a nice tall shape.

Any help or suggestions welcome.

Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

So Sorry, computer illiterate here.

The Bosch video's all claim the dough hook mixes so well that no first fermentation is needed. The shape and pan rise is normal (?)- just above the pan, there is no oven bounce.

Just to confuse things, I repaired my KA with a new gear and used it for my Christmas baking, it still growls a bit ( wants more grease probably), so the Bosch is only for whole wheat bread.

I suppose I should try a white bread recipe...the loaves would probably triple in size in the oven.

I should go back to brain surgery while tap dancing...

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I have seen the Youtube for the Bosch, and never understood the skip of the bulk ferment (it brings to mind the scene from My Cousin Vinny - Do the Laws that govern the time to cook grits not apply in your kitchen).  I don't see how kneading thoroughly can substitute for the flavor development of a bulk ferment,  though IIRC, they add sugar or honey to help with flavor.  If you get a good window pane,  the other common issues that cause not much spring are too large a pan and over proofing.

Dreasbaking's picture
Dreasbaking

I wonder if she used the same flour?  I am a home demonstrator of the universal.  If thats how you bought your Bosch! then she is most likely milling her own flour...  Also, many of the home demonstrators use a dough enhancer in the demonstrations.  It's a part of the equation to get the 100% whole wheat breads to work so well. the enhancer is mainly citric acid and lectin, nothing super special, but is there a chance she might of used that in her replication of your recipe?  Regarding the single rise on the Bosch YouTube videos, yep, it's crazy, but it works.  I attribute it to the fresh milled flour (has better flavor than most store bought stuff).  

also, check your pan size.  A smaller/ narrower pan can make the loaf have a better support for that nice round top.

Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

My vendor has a store front and has been a real jewel in helping me with the conversion to the Bosch. I emailed a copy of "my" recipe and the only ingredient change was from 2 1/4 tsp yeast to 3 tsp yeast. She got Bob's R M whole wheat flour ( she might not have found his unbleached white). We discussed enhancer and extra gluten, but she didn't use any.

I believe she used smaller pans than my 9X5 and when I need more bread or maybe for grins, I'll try some white bread for the Mrs. in the little pans.

I got some more SAF today to retest the yeast collection. One SAF and three Red Star; they all tested the same. 

The Mrs. decided this was a good time for gall bladder surgery, so things are a bit scrambled right now. I appreciate the help and interest in my baking activities...gives me something else to think about. A visit to the surgeon today got a clean bill of health, so on we go.

The fresh milled flour is a nice thought but we are only 18 miles from Bob's Red Mill World Headquarters and I'd rather not get more stuff for the kitchen...I'm not a end o' the world type so I think I'll avoid that. Not that another layer of weird would surprise anybody, my 30 gallon air lift compost tea brewer is the talk of the neighborhood.

And a Happy New Year to All!!!

barryvabeach's picture
barryvabeach

I hope things go well with the surgery.  Either use a smaller pan, the same size are your vendor, or increase the recipe.  The correct sized pan can make a big difference in oven spring.

Dreasbaking's picture
Dreasbaking

i concur, must be the pan.  Try a narrower width, often a wider pans can't support the whole wheat.  i use 4 inch wide pans. Hope all is healthy in your home!

Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

Just for grins, I made a two loaf batch of ( oh the shame ) of "old Dutch" recipe white bread. Truly white bread, all purpose ( it was unbleached, at least) flour, water, Crisco. 9x5 pans, usual suspects.

Splurged on a 8 ounce bag of Bob's Red Mill Yeast ( $5.79).

The Mrs. has almost devoured the whole first, tall, brown, domed loaf.

The whole wheat flour was the bottom of a 50 pound bag, has been in a freezer since I got it home...

so I guess old flour is to blame. After I eat the three loaves surviving the experiment ( or if I toss them in the yard for the birds, raccoons) I'll try the new bag.

I also made a couple batches of sweet bread in the bosch, small batches, and that turned out fine. As in gone in sixty seconds.

Maybe I'll just add more bread flour to the whole wheat recipe. Only I will know...

 

 

Dreasbaking's picture
Dreasbaking

Bread baking is a constant science experiment.  Got to love it.  Sadly, store bought whole wheat flour is often already a little off, even before you get it into your freezer.  Once you find a good whole whest flour, I'd recommend try a batch of your whole ewheat bread I different sized pans.  I'd love to see your results in that.  Happy baking!

Plantaholic12's picture
Plantaholic12

I've got a photo but no way to post it.

Two loaves next to stacked pans.

The loaves are on a cooling rack, but still match the height of the pans.

I'll eat to that!

Thanks for everyone's help.

Tom