The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Same Dough Two Ways with a Pizza Crust Later

  • Pin It
dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Same Dough Two Ways with a Pizza Crust Later

We wanted to use Josh’s 4 day, 4 feedings, 2 retard levain method and compare it to our normal 3 day, 3 feeding 1 retard method for flavor and sour.  The levain rose well using Josh’s method.

 

We also wanted to cut down on the long retard times we have been using of late to develop flavor and sour.  They have been 18 hours or more but the dough was over proofing to 100% or more in the fridge while Lucy was goofing off and or asleep.  So we cut the retard back to 11 and 12 hours for these two breads and got much better results doing so.

 

This recipe was very similar to last Friday’s bake except we added a multigrain scald to the 20% whole multigrain flours for one loaf and added pecans and cranberries to the other.

 

We have wanted to try to duplicate the fine Pecan and Cranberry Sourdough that Mediterra Bakehouse, in Coolidge AZ, sells at Whole Foods.  There’s is a batard and this one was an oval. 

 

The formula shows a 3 stage levain build but it was 4 stages and if you divide the last one in half then you get the 3rd and 4th stage.  Josh’s levain build is to feed it twice and let sit on the counter for two hours then into the fridge it goes overnight

 

Then you take it out of the fridge and do the same thing again including the over night retard.  Then take it out of the fridge and let it finish its last doubling before using.  I made 2 separate identical levains for what turned out to be two very different breads.

 

We did the same autolyse, 3 sets of slap and folds and 3 sets of stretch and folds as last week.  For one loaf we used the scald soaker water for the liquid and incorporated the multigrain berries on the first set of S&F’s.  We used the cranberry re-hydration water for the liquid on the 2nd loaf and incorporated the cranberries on the frist set of S&F’s and the pecans on the 2nd one.

 

The color of the cranberry liquid tinted the 2nd loaf a little bit maroon and it became more so after the cranberries were added and folded it.  The sugar from the cranberry water added some color to the crust and, as a result, when it baked up the color was much darker mahogany than the loaf with the scald but with smaller blisters.  The other loaf baked up a beautiful large blistered brown with its tic- tac- toe slash.

 

Both the loaves were baked in the big GE between 2 stones with steam starting at 550 F for 2 minutes then 2 minutes at 500 F then 8 minutes at 475 F.  The steam was removed and the bread continued to bake a 425 F convection this time for another 25 minutes until it reached 205 F on the inside.


We caught both of these loaves at 85% -90% proof so they sprang and bloomed beautifully.  From the outside these are two of the best looking loaves Lucy has managed of late and the 12 hour mark for the retard is the way to go – no more 18-24 retards for Lucy - no matter how much better they might taste.  We will have to wait on the crumb shots and the tasting until later.

 

We held back some of the levain to make a pizza for tonight or tomorrow’s dinner and this amount was deducted from the formula below.

The crumb on both breads was open, very soft and moist,  The  scald, more plainer bread bread was very open and glossy.  Both breads are about as good a bread as Lucy can make right now.  We just love them.  The cranberry pecan bread was perfect for the pastrami lunch sandwich and the white bread was the foil for the sun dried tomato and mushroom bruschetta for dinner.  The sour came through but no more than our normal SD breads.  Got to go I'm wanting some more bruschetta.

Formula

Pecan and Cranberry Sourdough

 

 

 

 

 

Build 1

Build 2

 Build 3

Total

%

Multigrain SD Starter

15

0

0

15

2.56%

Whole Rye

5

8

18

31

5.29%

Whole Kamut

5

8

18

31

5.29%

Whole Wheat

5

8

18

31

5.29%

Whole Spelt

5

8

18

31

5.29%

Water

20

32

72

124

21.14%

Total

55

64

144

263

44.84%

 

 

 

 

 

 

Multigrain SD Levain

 

%

 

 

 

Whole Multi-grain Flour

112

19.01%

 

 

 

Water

112

19.01%

 

 

 

Hydration

100.00%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Levain % of Total

21.84%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dough Flour

 

%

 

 

 

AP

475

80.99%

 

 

 

Dough Flour

475

80.99%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Salt

11

1.88%

 

 

 

Re-hydration Water

330

56.27%

 

 

 

Dough Hydration

69.47%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Total Flour

587

100.00%

 

 

 

Re-hydration Water, Water

442

75.28%

 

 

 

T. Dough Hydration

75.28%

 

 

 

 

% Whole Grain

19.01%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hydration w/ Adds

73.40%

 

 

 

 

Total Weight

1,204

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Add - Ins

 

%

 

 

 

Dried Cranberries

75

12.79%

 

 

 

Pecans

75

12.79%

 

 

 

VW Gluten

15

2.56%

 

 

 

Total

165

28.13%

 

 

 

By replacing the cranberries and pecans above with 75 g of dry weight scald you have the recipe for the 20% multigrain SD with scald bread.

Comments

golgi70's picture
golgi70

What a crust you got there.  Great steaming.  Did the new method of rye feeding play any effect as to your normal way of doing?  Again you gotta mail me some of these cured/smoke meats as they make me very hungry when I look at your posts

 

Cheers

Josh

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

two feed with a retard worked really well and the sour came through.  Sadly i'm not good enough to tell if the bread was more sour than the 3 feeds and one retard  Both methods nake for the most sour bread possible.  With 20% of the total levain the retard of 11-12 hours was much better for spring and bloom.  The 18 - 24 hour retards require a smaller 10% inoculation and we will try that out on the next bake to see if that produces good flavor yet not over proofing.

I've got a top sirloin ending pastrami cure today for drying out and smoking on Monday.  Never done a steak before but this time the steak was cheaper than the brisket.

I used a 9x13 Pyrex pan with lava rocks half full of water and 1 of Sylvia's steaming Pyrex loaf pans with a towel rolled up, also half full of water, for the steam.  Put them in at the 450 F mark,  By the time the bread went in, the oven was in full Mega Steam mode.

Glad you like the post Josh.

bakingyummies's picture
bakingyummies

Perfect shape, color and crust

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

like this bread too!  The taste is the best part for both.  Everything came together this time !

Happy baking

Casey_Powers's picture
Casey_Powers

DA,

These bakes are so creative and beautiful.  The additions and process are almost like a science experiment as you write about your explorations.  It is fascinating to read about the thought going into changing various variables.  I enjoying your baking travels.  

Warm Regards,

Casey

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

gone back and fixed most of the typos and grammar errors Lucy's though processes are almost understandable.  She is on a quest to figure out this bread baking thing and likely won't ever stop experimenting since she can't remember the outcome of the last experiment :-)  Age has its privileges and advantages!  Glad you enjoyed the post Casey and

happy baking.

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Beautiful all around baking.  Love those nut and fruit loaves.  Your Great looking sandwich is sending me to the kitchen for a late snack.  Whole Foods has some stepping up to do : ) 

Sylvia

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

that a cranberry pecan SD with dijon mustard , hot pepper jack cheese and pastrami that is micro waved on high for 35 seconds would be such a great tasting sandwich.  Just yummy!  These breads are real treats to eat and rise up to their good looks with a fine taste too.  We just love everything about these two breads.

I have the Mediterra Bakhouse in Coolidge on my list of winter motorcycle rides.  All of their bread looks fantastic at Whole Foods which carries about 6 of their 20 breads.  It should be a nice road trip here is their web site

http://mediterrabakehouse.com/

Pinched off some of the levain to make out favorite SD pizza dough with EVOO, a bit of honey, garlic, sun dried tomato and rosemary in the the dough - then refrigerated it for 48 hours - sure smells terrific but Lucy is still missing that fine WFO you enjoy so much.  Glad you liked the post.

Happy Baking Sylvia

isand66's picture
isand66

Wow! Wow! These are 2 of your most beautiful breads yet.  Picture perfect crust and crumb.  These must taste great and I'm in love with that pecan cranberry one....perfect for the holidays.  Just a great bake DA all around.  The food spread looks amazing as always.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

These are two beautiful breads that taste great and look so different - even when using the same dough!   They are the best Lucy can manage and not bad for a baking apprentice.  That cranberry pecan SD is a good holiday bread and would make a great bring to the party bread.  The 20% whole grain white bread reminds me very much of David's SFSD - but with a soft seedy scald.  Very sour and perfect for bruschetta, sopping up stuff and cleaning the plate.  have to make some kind of chili infused, Vietnamese soup for lunch today to sop up the broth.

One thing is for sure, Josh's levain build with 2 retards really brings out the sour and works perfect with the 10-12 hour dough retard.

Happy baking Ian an Lucy sends her best to Max and his 5 cohorts.

gmabaking's picture
gmabaking

blisters and rings and ears with nuts and berries peeking through. This is really a picture of perfection, Lucy did herself proud. The sandwich looks delectable and the pizza will be wonderful I'm sure! Doing the double fed sweet levain from Ken Forkish this morning, now if my breads could just look and be half as great I will be happy.

Thanks for sharing another benchmark bake

Barbra

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

bread Barbra.  You have excellent taste!  These have to be the best pair of breads to come out of Big Old Betsy - ever!  They taste as good as they look.  Lucy has much to be proud of too besides being runner up for the Halloween baking contest - she keeps working hard at the bread making craft and it is paying off.  I just had to promoted her to 2nd Baking Apprentice in Waiting today from the 3rd Baking Apprentice level.  With a little luck she will make 1st Apprentice, twice removed, before you know it but she is going to have to stop burying our discards in the back yard before then :-)

So what is a double fed sweet levain?  Sounds like in belongs in a dessert like panettone!

Happy Baking Barbra.  Its time to get ready for the Holiday's and winter too!

CeciC's picture
CeciC

it's prefect inside out! Love your crumb that is so soft and moist! 

What is the key to make a bread that gives this kinda crumb? Mine is always chewy like French bread so frustrating.  

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

what recipes you are using for your bread but I'm pretty sure if you follow any of mine you too will get a similar crumb.  I do home mill some of the flour so my dough tends to be thirsty.  Hydration is so important and getting that right makes all the difference,

If I had to pick one thing that helped me the most to make decent bread was Eric Hanner's advice to do slap and folds  Not to learn how to do them or develop gluten but to get the feel of the dough, each one, and know what it is supposed to feel and look like with various amounts of whole grains and different grains - all at various stages of gluten development.

Now, after a couple of minutes, I can tell if I need more water or not and getting the hydration right is the key to an open, moist and soft crumb and the other to make sure you bake to 205 F on the inside.

2nd would be patience that teketeke said was required to make bread - her way of saying watch the dough not the clock.  Long cold retards of starter, levain and dough would be 3rd and baking at higher temperatures while under steam reducing as you go from 550 F to 475 over 15 minutes would be 4th.

It is matter of gaining more experience baking bread.   There is no substitute for making 50 different loaves of bread by hand with different and various recipes and flours.  It is good to start making one recipe till you get it right just to learn the processes and mechanics of bread making.

After that we rarely made the same recipe twice, unless it was really good and top 5 bread by our standards, because Lucy is a Floozy and likes variety in her life more than anything else:-)

Hope this helps.

CeciC's picture
CeciC

Thanka DB,

For my last loaf the hydration was around 75%+, when I handle the dough it feels like a 6x% hydration of a white dough. With no enrichment the crumb is soft but chewy. Nothing like a soft sandwich bread and the crumb looks different to yours.

Sorry im still very new to bread baking, may I please clarify a few issues that I came Across?

1) when I do a few rounds of slap and fold after the initial mixing stage, sometimes it's so wet that it sticks to the broad like a runny mess. this kinda dough normally turns into a disaster, even after a few stretch ands fold it still wouldn't hold it's shape and ended up like a flat stone. This happens all the time in super hot and humid days, do u think it has something to do with temp and humidity? should I add more flour instead of using wet hands? 

2) your formula always contains a high amount of mixed grains which is quite difficult to get a hand on. can substitute I them with wholewheat flour instead? 

3) my little oven temp doesn't go as high as 500f the Max it would go is around 220c. when i bake my loaf I leave it atthe max for the whole baking time (around 40 min). would this high heat draws out all the moisture? 

thank you so much!! 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

climates many things about bread making are different even from a hot dry climate like AZ and my AC keeps the temperature inside int eh kitchen at no mkore than 85 F in the summer.

First thing is that your flour is already has more water in it from the humidity so less water in the mix may be required. If the dough is still sticking to the counter after 10 minutes of slap and folds ( not stretch and folds) then the dough is telling you 1 of 3 things or a combination of them.  Either the dough is too hot, there is too much hydration or the flour is very weak in gluten, - or some combination.

I would start by cutting h back the hydration some to say 70%-72% (you can easily add more water in the slap and folds if it seems too dry)  My rule of thumb is if it is too wet after 10 minutes of slap and folds and still sticking to the counter, then it needs more flour or you will end up with ciabatta instead of a a boule - not a bad bread but not what you want.  So just add it in as you do slap and folds till it feel right and no longer is sticking.

You can use cold water in the mix to try to keep the temperature down and do the autolyse in the fridge too.  After mixing you can take the temperature of the dough with an instant read thermometer to make sure it is in the 72-75 F range for the slap and folds.

You can also refrigerate the dough between sets of slap and folds or the later stretch and folds to keep it at the right temperature.  All my dough starts out as a gloppy mess and it takes some getting used to it flying all over the place and sticking, but after 6 minutes of slap and folds it should start coming together and by 10 minutes not sticking tot he counter.  I like to do 6, 4 and 2 minute slap and fold sessions and then follow them with 3 sets of stretch and folds just to keep the gluten together as it ferments.

I use home milled grains for the wholemeal portion of my bakes so the flour is called 'green' and very thirsty.  You certainly can substitute whole wheat for the whole grains in my recipes but if not home milled then it won't be as thirsty so cutting back the hydration for that would be good idea too.  Just make sure to autolyse it for at least a couple of hours so it can absorb as much liquid as it can before mixing.

I don't have any problems with the dough spreading since it is proofed in baskets in the fridge adn baked right out of the fridge so it is pretty stiff and not likely to spread.

Last but not least, if you flour is low protein then you need to add some with vital wheat gluten but I'm thinking that the hydration and gluten  

Your mini oven's top temp of 428F is not the best thing.  Hard to get great spring and resulting crumb with that.  But you can try to compensate some.  i would make sure to get as much steam in there as possible.  I have tried all kinds of things but settled on 2 of Sylvias pyrex steaming cups half full of water and a dish towel inside each one.  They put out a lot of steam and the space is small.  Just heat then up to boiling in the microwave before loading the bread.  If you put them in opposite corners this still leaves room for the bread diagonally of you have a 12" x 12" space like mine - otherwise just use 1 and throw 1/4 C of water in the bottom of the oven as you close the door - I throw water in the bottom of mine each time too.

Since you temperature is low i would steam for 20 minutes no fan and then bake without steam (and fan if your oven is convection like mine) until the dough hits 96C on the inside.  It won;t be too dry.

I think you just need to keep baking and see what hydration works best for you first and really get that gluten developed.  Start at 70% hydration and work your way up till you are satisfied with the outcome using your flour and oven.

Happy experimenting CeciC

CeciC's picture
CeciC

thank you DA

ive tried out the steaming method and baking time 

the crumb is moist with a chewy crust. Although the spring isn't the best still it's tasty! Thank you very much for ur advice!

i wish I can be your apprentice there must be so much to learn from you.

happy baking !

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

of bread!  Well done.  Some great shaping to get a crumb as open and even as that one.  The outside is blistered and well browned too!  A soft moist crumb too.  For an oven that oly goes to 428F that is some fne baking CeciC.  Now you are well on your way to all kinds of great bread baking.  Glad I could help.