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CHALLENGE FOR ALL MULTIGRAIN BREADS FANS

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hanseata's picture
hanseata

CHALLENGE FOR ALL MULTIGRAIN BREADS FANS

Dear fellow TFL bakers, I have a challenge for you!

During our recent trip to Germany we spent a few days in Potsdam, to visit Frederick the Great's Sanssouci. We stayed at Schlosshotel Cecilienhof, a wonderful hotel right inside another historic site, Cecilienhof Palace.

Cecilienhof Palace

Named after a crown princess, this palace was also the place where those three jolly old guys met:

Churchill, Truman and Stalin at the Potsdam Conference

To honor the history and importance of this heritage, the hotel's pastry chef came up with the idea to create a special bread for the guests' breakfast buffet:

Bread buffet at Schlosshotel Cecilienhof

An ancient grain bread, "Urbrot", a rye sourdough with a lot of different grains and seeds. To educate their guests, the hotel had placed a little brochure on the table, with informations about the bread: "Taste meets Tradition", including a list of the ingredients:

Ingredients of the Cecilienhof Ancient Grain Rye Bread

Rye meal

Water

Sunflower seeds

Ancient wheat meal: emmer and einkorn

Wheat flour (white or medium, not whole wheat)

Rolled spelt

Chestnut flour

Rolled oats

Barley meal

Barley malt extract

Vital wheat gluten

Rolled barley

Flaxseed

Steel cut oats

Spelt flour

Potato flakes

Sea salt

Vegetable fat (shortening)

Whole spelt sourdough

Table salt

Yeast

Unfortunately they didn't supply the bakers' percentage!

We really enjoyed the bread, and I think it would be wonderful to have another bread in my repertoire, associated with an important historic event (like the wonderful Wild Rice Sourdough - The Bread That Ended The Cold War.)

A moist, very flavorful loaf - created to honor the history of Cecilienhof Palace

I couldn't stop thinking about it, and see this as a challenge worthy of my talented fellow bakers at TFL. Certainly not all ingredients will be available for us, and we have to come up with a formula, but that is the fun part of it.

WHO WANTS TO JOIN ME AND TAKE UP THE CHALLENGE?

Happy Baking

Karin

Comments

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

This is right up her alley  but I wil have to stop her from 2 things  Adding to the ingredient list and DaPumperizing it.  Are these listed in order by the amount used like in the USA? It looks like to but you never know.  I'm really shocked this fine looking commemorative bread from Germany doesn't have a dark beer in it :-(  Where do you get chestnut flour?  Italy?

Sounds like fun supplied by the Queen of Seeds!

hanseata's picture
hanseata

I'm pretty posititve they are listed in order of their weight, with rye meal the most, and yeast the least amount. I can get chestnut flour (or meal) at our local natural food store, whole foods might carry it, too.

I'm very happy to hear that Lucy is in!

Karin

SCruz's picture
SCruz

I'm not running the race but I'll cheer from the sidelines. Can't wait to see how the race ends up.

Jerry

(Queen of Seeds... I like that.)

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

hooked on hemp seeds before you know it - if you aren't careful - so beware.   My poor apprentice has never been the same and has been trying to build a greenhouse in the back yard for over a year now :-)  Thankfully, Lucy is more of a baker than a builder!

hanseata's picture
hanseata

I do hope for several people joining, and I will definitely feature the recipes, or the links, on my blog.

Karin

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

and I see that he's already raidng the pantry!

This looks an awful lot like a vollkornbrot, which makes me wonder if the fermentation process and baking profile is similar.  How big was the loaf, Karin?  In the photos, it looks like it might have been baked in a 3x3 inch, or 75x75 mm, pan.  Is that about right?

I'll stay in the bleachers with Jerry for this challenge but it looks like it could be a fun show.

Paul

hanseata's picture
hanseata

This is certainly a kind of vollkornbrot. I would tend to make it like my Friesisches Schwarzbrot, with an intermediate dough, and no added yeast.

Your eyeballing must be pretty accurate, it was a long loaf, but no large diameter.

Karin

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

stuff is in the crumb shot?  There are only flax and sunflower seeds listed and the rest of the stuff is either ground meal or rolled stuff that disappears?  I think something is missing from the list that is some kind of nut or fat seed and I'm guessing some kind of nut, not walnuts or pecans - maybe chopped chestnuts?

Chestnut flour is only $10 a pound with shipping :-)

hanseata's picture
hanseata

No, these aren't nuts, these were sunflower seeds, there were a lot of them in the bread (third ingredient right after rye meal and water).

I don't think, Lucy would find it a sacrilege to substitute chestnut flour with some nut meal.

Karin

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

they had to be sunflower seeds too but I use them a lot and never had them ever look that big or white like that in the crumb.  They must be using gigantic bleached ones!

I got some fresh water chestnuts at the Chinese market  to sub for the chestnut flour in a pinch.  Hey, they sure look like chestnuts from the outside even if they may not taste like them.... Oddly, chopped up they would look just like white bits in the bread. I'm thinking an Italian market might stock some chestnut flour.

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

That's why the seeds look so big, proportionally.  I doubt that they are anything like mini's Chilean pine nuts for size.

Paul

hanseata's picture
hanseata

It must be whole oat kernels, soaked and probably cooked.

Karin

 

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

Karin,

I love the picture of the breads on the table.  It shows baked goods receiving proper reverence and respect.  Something not always found in the U.S.  Actually, it is almost never found in the U.S.  Good luck with this project and I have no doubt about the outcome in hands as capable as yours.

It looks like a great formula other than the vital wheat gluten which I personally would leave out. (that's my 2 cents)

Jeff

hanseata's picture
hanseata

I agree, the vital wheat gluten is probably not even necessary, especially if you use bread flour for the unspecified "Weizenmehl" (which is not whole wheat).

Karin

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I would bet that the white bits are steel cut oats. It looks like they are almost completely whole. Added uncooked?

And some sunflower seeds.

Chestnut flour may be available at an Indian Grocery store, if you have one nearby. Singada or singhara flour?

hanseata's picture
hanseata

You might be right, I translated Haferkerne (oat kernels) with steel cut oats.
The only argument against it would be that the oats is more at the bottom of the list, and the crumb looks like there is a lot of the "white bits" in the bread.

Karin

run4bread's picture
run4bread

what is the purpose of the vegetable fat(shortening)?

I might give this a try, without VWG and the chesnut flour. It looks very interesting. Hard to imagine the flavor.

It is frightening to realize I have almost all these ingredients already! All but einkorn and potato flakes.
I don't have a pan the right proportions. Would it be a pullman or just a square loaf pan?

Paula

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Paula, I wouldn't use shortening other than in pie crust (part) anyway, and I'm not sure what it is supposed to achieve other than softening the dough. I would probably leave it out, or replace it it vegetable oil. 

Since the bread has a little dome, it can't have been baked in a pan with a lid. I would bake it in a loaf pan, covered loosely with aluminum foil during the first part of the bake, then turn it out, and bake it free standing.

Please, give it a try, with all the tweaks you think necessary.

Karin

 

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Add me to the cheering crowd, Karin. No runs to the organics store for me, i'm too lazy after work. Furthermore, chestnut flour is not available anywhere in Dubai. Very inspiring breads and post , of course.

-Khalid

hanseata's picture
hanseata

It would have been so nice to have you on (and you can always substitute chestnut flour with some nut meal), but I will be happy to see your knowledgeable comments on future posts.

Karin

 

Foodzeit's picture
Foodzeit

inspiring breakfast table, look at all those breads and bread rolls. Give me enough ideas for a few months worth of baking. I have never been to Sanssouci but seeing this, I should (not worry to much - "faire trop des soucis" and) go there once.

But like Khalid, there is too many ingredients that I can not get here in China, so I am sorry I also cannot join this challenge. But I will be eagerly looking forward to see the results and the beautiful bread shots...

hanseata's picture
hanseata

I will not get everything here in Maine, either, never seen barley or spelt flakes around. But I don't think it would suffer from some substitutes.

Karin

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

but rolled barley and was too tough for her.  So she ground up some of each medium to coarse, threw them on the kitchen floor and then, on command mind you, rolled over them a few times and called that close enough.  After striking out at the Indian and the Chinese market, she gave up on chestnuts and will go with the water chestnuts instead :-)  She swears they are the white things in the crumb.  Once she gets something in her head she has a hard time giving it up like so many determined apprentices of German extraction.......... 

Oddly, this spell checker says spelt is not a word and suggests replacing it with spelled :-) Another example of how technology really just makes people more stupid and lazy in the end.

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

I'm in.

Haferkerne = oat groats? I got some in the cupboard ...

Viele Grüsse,

Jürgen

hanseata's picture
hanseata

I don't really know, but I think you can give your creativity free reign with this bread, nobody will be able to make an exact copy, and it will be interesting to see what people come up with.

I hope you will participate!

Tschüss,

Karin

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Karin,

To my surprise I had most of the ingredients in my cupboard...

I am still musing about the chestnut flour - whether it's role is just as a starchy filler or if it adds flavor.

Platano comes to mind as a possible substitute ... Never used it in bread before. 

I definitely won't use potato flakes ...

Hope to bake this on Sunday.

Juergen

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

oat groats after you and Karin mentioned it.  Lucy had some in her secret kennel pantry - had the entire list really not including he 2 odd rolled spelt and barley that she claims she has ever seen anywhere before - even in the old country.  They sure turned out nice and white on the inside and puffed themselves up to about the right size after 20 minutes of boiling.  Lucy is now convinced that is what those white spots are in the crumb, even if not listed in the ingredients and threw them in the mix before I could stop her.

She's too fast for me these days and takes advantage of other people to pet her all the time too.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

as far as the water is concerned if listed by weight.  It should be #1 on the list by a wide margin.  Usually with a multigrain bread with this much variety, my experience tells me the water would be much more than twice the weight of the rye meal which in this in case which I pegged at 31% of the total flour ....I am at 84% hydration. just to get this dough to come together and have a consistency like my apprentice's formulas.

Lucy also likes a lot of grain variety when she claims it to be a multigrain not just 2 or 3 different ones adn shee added to this list as well.

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Maybe they didn't want to list water as first ingredient for all those non-bread-baking guests, who would have wondered about a "water bread".

I will go by what I think might work - and what I like.

Karin

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

what else might be out of place or named wrong?  Oat groats comes to mind!

Ok!  The (2) 500 g coctail loaves went into teh fridge for an 18 hour retard.  The dough tasted wonderful. I don't know if i am the only one besides Lucy who  tastes the dough right before it is shaped - but we do. 

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Wow! I have a sprouted grain bread started (the sprouts), so I have to do that first, and the my husband's birthday cake (Bohemian Hazelnut Torte), before I can get started.

Can't wait to see your results!

Karin

Skibum's picture
Skibum

which must taste excellent!  Despite dabrownmans encouragement to step in here, I simply do not have the high % whole grain baking experience.  Now this rolls right into the Dman's sweet spot. It will be most interesting to see the final breads of this project.  Perhaps after I see some successful loaves I may try one.

Regards, Brian

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

before you go to the dark side Brian:-)    I look at these breads like I do banana bread.  It is sort of a mix and dump with a little bit of work.

Make the levain, autolyse the rest, dump it together, do some slap and folds to mix it up, do some S&F's to incorporate the add ins.  Let it rest,  Shape it as best you can and dump it in a tin, put it in the fridge till it doubles 12- 18 hours, take out of the fridge and bake under foil to steam at 425 F for 20 minutes, take off foil and finish baking at 275 F convection to 205 F on the inside.

Next time!

Much easier than a Tartine loaf any day where you have to worry about gluten development and shaping, slashing etc....  Even bough they are so easy, they are just full of flavor, texture and the some of the best bread going.  It really should be much harder for bread that good :-)

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Are you really able to S&F a high percent rye bread like that? I mix them with the paddle attachment, because a kneading hook would only rotate futilely with the dough sticking to the walls of the bowl.

Karin

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

with breads up to 40% rye and S&F's to incorporate the seeds and scalds.  I did 3 sets fo slap and folds with this recipe 6 min, 4 min and 2 minutes.  After the first set the dough wasn't sticking to the counter any more.  It came together really well but still quite sticky.  The 3 sets of S&Fs were a sticky mess too but I don't know how else to incorporate the add ins after the gluten of the other 70% is developed :-)  It did form a nice small batard for the tins though.  They look very nice after 18 hours in the fridge but today is clean the house day so they will be in there another 6 hours or so,  Retirement isn'tt all fun in the sun by the pool with a limoncello:-)  One day, every three weeks, there is some work to do:-)

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Alas, I have to refrain from too much dough slapping.

When I made some of Bertinet's breads, my husband accused me of being "slap happy", and having a much too intimate relationship with my dough ("The Other Man").

After that I can only gently stretch and meekly fold my doughs, not to rise suspicions again....

 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Karin,

Late to this one.  I don't often check out this 'room' and only knew about your challenge from another post directing me here.

Looks like a fun one to toy with so I will begin crunching numbers and see what I come up with as a finished loaf.  Will have to do this between my fall bakes - I have gotten bitten by the baking-with-oatmeal-apples-and-maple-syrup-bug of late brought on by our rains and flooding.  The damp and cool reminded me of the cold San Francisco mornings where the only thing to take the chill off was a nice hot bowl of oatmeal.  One thought leading to another loaf :- )

Love the post and write up as usual.  Amazing photo of C.T. and S…..

Take Care,

Janet

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Please, do, Janet.

It's a pity that with the new format there is no information in the daily mails about new comments on a subject anymore, so that fewer people see it. I basically would have to send a private message to anyone who I think might be interested.

I usually only look at what I get in the daily mail, and not in the home page.

Karin

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

The loaves are done and distributed.  I made 3 of my mini loaves and gave them to 3 of my 'regulars' to taste test for me.  One already reported back.  Her comment was that she would have preferred one dominant flavor to come through.  She did like the texture but just thought there were too many 'competing' tastes present….(I will let you know what my other 2 testers think when I hear back from them.)

 

I loved the color but realize I could have gone heavier on the rye.  I 'assembled' all of the grains and flours according to the method I use when baking Andy's Borodinsky or Moscow Rye breads.  The coarser grains all got cooked in a hot scald while the flours went into the sour (rye and spelt combined) and the final dough.  I baked at 350° for an hour after 10 minutes of steam.  (These were mini loaves consisting of 350g of dough apiece hence shorter bake time for a dough this dense and wet.)

Had a very nice aroma while baking and is certainly what I would call a 'hearty' loaf.  A meal in itself with a bit of cheese and fruit to lighten things up :)

Fun challenge to do.  Thanks for the inspiration.  I am glad I found out about this in time to participate.  

Take Care,

Janet

hanseata's picture
hanseata

not complain, if I sampled one of those.They look great!

What formula did you come up with in the end?

Thanks for participating in the challenge, Janet!!!

Karin

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Thanks for the complement Karin.  I am curious to see what the other 2 people think of it.  I am trying not to bug them so I am sitting on my hands.  All were intrigued by the story behind the bread which I loved too.

Formula:

Sour

1.5% Seed               8g 

 25% Rye              125g    

  5% Spelt               25g

 30% Water           150g

I let this ferment overnight on the counter. (70%)

HOT SCALD

20% Rye - Coarse               100g       

13% Kamut - Coarse             65g

2% Spelt - Rolled                  10g

2% Oats - Rolled                   10g

2% Oats - Steel Cut              10g

1% Barley - Rolled                 5g

1% Barley - Steel                   5g

5% Honey Malt                     25g

10% Flax                              50g

100% Water                        500g

I cooked this all like a pot of oatmeal until grains softened and then let it sit until morning.

SPONGE

In the morning I combined the sour and the soaker and let it ferment for 3-4 hours before the final mix.

FINAL

40% Whole Wheat Flour    175g

12% Eikorn Flour               60g

4% Potato Flakes               20g

20% Sunflower Seeds      100g

3% Coconut Oil                   15g

These were added to the sponge and mixed to combine all ingredients.  I let it bulk ferment for about an hour and then, with very wet hands, I shaped it into 3 loaves which took several hours to proof prior to baking.  

After seeing my final results I would increase the rye a lot and maybe do all the scald additions at 1% each to make up the difference while decreasing the final whole wheat addition too.  This would give the loaf a much more pronounced rye flavor rather than a blend of all the flavors. I just tried to use what was marked as 'meal' and 'flour' in the sour and the final dough which didn't include a lot of just fine flour.  I had to adjust the water in the scald which required me to adjust the final flour too so this formula reflects those 2 changes in the ingredient #'s but not in the overall %'s which I will have to reconfigure at some point….

 I used my KoMo to grind the grains so the ones marked 'steel' were milled at a setting beyond 'coarse' coming out practically whole.  For the ones marked 'rolled' I milled them at a setting about 3/4ths of the way to the coarse setting.  Makes kinda a flake but pretty chunky flour too. The honey malt was in powder form and used in place of the Barley Malt Extract.

Take Care,

Janet

 

hanseata's picture
hanseata

that this would not taste good!

Take care,

Karin

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

multigrain while grain sunflower seed bread Janet.  Well done as usual.  We don't see enough of your fine baking posted on TFL Janet.  You cam out with about 5% more rye than i did.  You are famous aroiund here for your gruel technique and have to admit I was tempted to use it too:-)  This bread has to taste great!

Happy baking Janet

Skibum's picture
Skibum

I just looked at your Friesisches Schwarzbrot post and since I have all ingredients but the molases on hand, I have started the starter.  I may even have to add in some 'toadies' and perhaps buy some steel cut oats to keep in the spirit of things.  This will be my first try at a all grain bread and should be interesting.

Regards, Brian

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Brian is going to the dark side and now there is no hope for him of ever baking a decent Tartine or fine Forkish loaf agian :-)  No DO required now! 

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Great, Brian, the more, the merrier!

Karin

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

two 500 g coctail loaves after 24 hour retard adn 2 hour warm up on the counter.. Will wrap them when cool and cut them in 24 hours.  They sure smell good.  Crust is nice and crisp now.

hanseata's picture
hanseata

They do look very nice, and I'm sure they taste good, too.

Karin

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Correctomundo!  Just delicious.  Thanks for thinking up this challenege.  i'm sure my  apprentice would have never ever thought up a recipe like this one - not ever - and that is saying something :-)

hanseata's picture
hanseata

but I'm sure everything Lucy puts her paws in must turn out well :)

 

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