The Fresh Loaf

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Preferment dough in warm water "bath tub"

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sunhana's picture
sunhana

Preferment dough in warm water "bath tub"

Does anyone know this method of SOAKING a prefermented dough in WARM WATER? i came across this method from the video clip (http://vivalafocaccia.com/en/2012/03/15/ricetta-croissant-cornetti-sfogliati-fatti-casa/). The prefermented dough is left in a tub of warm water and let it slowly ferment. Once the dough floats to the surface of the water, it will be used to mix with the remainder ingredients.

I wonder what is this technique? wonder if by using this method, it will give better texture to the bread.

Will give this method a try as i love to try out new method to achieve better bread texture (without the use of bread conditioner/improver).

Joyofgluten's picture
Joyofgluten

Hello

The Richmond school of baking in Switzerland, mentions this technique as being a fast preferment used to start the swelling process and that it makes for a more plastic feeling dough. They warn that the dough piece takes on a unknown amount of the soak water and that adjustments have to be made for this.

I believe that this technique is rarely practiced, using the well known hydrolyse method is much easier and in my opinion would yield the same or even better results

cheers daniel

 

sunhana's picture
sunhana

Thanks Daniel for your info. Do u think hydrolyse method is better than preferment dough (kept in fridge overnight)? I normally modify the recipes i like to do preferment as preferment to me is better than straightdough and water roux method. although recently i started making water roux method where i cooked oatmeal with water to get the roux. to my surprise it is better than just flour cooking with water to form roux.

Joyofgluten's picture
Joyofgluten

In the german text book i have here it's called a "Schnellhebel"

I've only done bulk overnight fridge ferments on 3 occasions, always with bagutte type doughs, so i can't speak with any authority there. There are so many possible variations in dough handling, almost all yield better results than a straight dough method, that's what makes this hobby so interesting. The trouble is when more than one element at a time is changed, it's hard to know exactly what to a attrubute the results to.

Perhaps you should give the waterbath a go and let us know and report back

cheers

sunhana's picture
sunhana

Thanks for sharing the german name of this method. I love to play around with different fermentation method. Will definitely fry this new method out. 

So daniel, what is your favorite method then? Have u tried water roux? This is almost like straight dough but need cooking of flour with water to form paste. It is the quickest method to improve the texture, better than straight dough. 

suave's picture
suave

What, pray tell, is hydrolyse?

Joyofgluten's picture
Joyofgluten

i was just refering to the practise of taking a portion of the wheat flour and water (without salt or yeast) and letting it rest for 20 to 40 minutes, sorry for any confusion.

What's being discussed here is not a simple test of whether the yeast is vital or not, it's a technique were the entire preferment is submerged naked in a water bath.

Fatmat's picture
Fatmat

My immediate thought would be that it would be difficult to control your hydration level... although you could weigh the started before and after soaking in the bath, assuming that too much flour isn't lost to the water. 

Sometimes I place my jar of starter in a water bath to hurry it along, although I suppose that the warmth will result in proportionally less LABs

sunhana's picture
sunhana

thanks fatmat for the tips to measure before and after soaking. This way i can adjust my hydration level without end up having a wet dough. i like my hydration level around 65%.

suave's picture
suave

This just a traditional way of determining the readiness of the dough which in the olden times was used by housewives all over the place.  There's nothing special about it.

sunhana's picture
sunhana

hmm...this is interesting. i am trying to find out more about this method but since i do not have exact name for this method, it is quite hard to research more about this. wonder if any baker does this too. does it produce better texture?

suave's picture
suave

I am sorry, but texture is mostly a function of skill.

sunhana's picture
sunhana

I do find by using prefermented dough or water roux method, the storage duration is longer (in term of the moisture and texture) compared to straight dough where after the next day, it is rather dry. I use a semi heavy duty machine to knead my bread to get good texture. Maybe this will help in terms of training the moisture of the bread. I must say water roux is the fastest.  This maybe we'll take at least 30 mins to get the dough floating in water. Preferment of course needs longer time.  I am just ring out different method and see in tend of preparation time, how much it can improve the bread texture and moisture. 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

looking under:  floating dough   or floating starters  or floating loaves  or Russian river bread floating test.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20928/floating-dough-check

 

sunhana's picture
sunhana

Thanks for the link. Now we know where it is x originated. This is the wonder of bread making. It is not just a straight forward as cake making. There is always 101 ways to change one simple bread recipe but get different results. This is why I love break making. So much science behind it

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

technique to know when to boil bagels.  Fi teh loittel dogh ball floats thsn the bages are ready to boil. my grand mother used this for bread to know when the SD levain was ready.  I think joyofgluten was talking about 'autolyse'..  They must call it hydrolyse in Switzerland.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

letting the dough pick up extra H molecules while it is deteriorating.  In this case under H2O.

Cool word.  

SteveB's picture
SteveB

Mini,

The word 'hydrolyze' (or hydrolyse in the UK and elsewhere) has a very specific chemical meaning.  It means 'to cleave using water'.  No hydrogen molecules (H2) are involved.

SteveB

www.breadcetera.com

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

if the dough is taking on any water and there is a weight change.   Nice to see you posting again, Steve.  :)   

SteveB's picture
SteveB

Mini,

Thanks for the 'welcome back'.

If the dough is taking on water, it is absorbing water (H2O), not hydrogen molecules (H2), which together exist as a flammable gas!

SteveB

www.breadcetera.com

sunhana's picture
sunhana

Just glanced through your blog. Very interesting and beautiful bread made. :)

sunhana's picture
sunhana

I guess this is just to let the dry ingredient incorporate well with moisture. Almost like why we do not eat the cake after u have spread the cream and also do not eat macaron after u just pipe the filing, the dry and wet needs time to gel well together. Like recently I just made macaron. I ate the macaron straight away after piping the filing. Somehow it is very off.  But to my surprise after letting it sit in fridge overnight, the macaron just balance out beautifully. 

Joyofgluten's picture
Joyofgluten

I indeed meant "autolyse", i should in the future be sure to drink at least two espresso's before posting.

sunhana's picture
sunhana

We know what u mean when u described the procedure. I guess autolyse is the common term used. Thank you anyway to introduce a new term hydrolyse to us. :)

snugglebunny686's picture
snugglebunny686

In the 19th and early 20th century my family in Essex, England, used this method especially on Tuesdays. It was know as Peggy Tub Bread (a peggy tub being a washing tub). Mondays were wash day and the entire day was used to washing the household clothing and linens (a family of 9 kids). Tuesdays were reserved for ironing and the making of peggy tub bread. The freshly washed tub was filled with fresh well water and set in the kitchen. the bread dough was made and tied very loosely in a heavily floured linen cloth. Several batches were made. The kitchen was warm, due to heating the sad irons on the aga all day. As the ironing was finished the dough was placed in pans and set for the last rise. Then baked. My Great Aunt always claimed Tuesday's bread was crustier and more tender than the rest.

As far as I know the recipe was the same as used for a regular white loaf.

Not much science in this post.

sunhana's picture
sunhana

I also suspect it will produce tender bread. Will definitely try it soon. I normally use a recipe that I like but will play with it by changing to prefermented dough method to improve the bread. But for preferment dough, it needs at least 6 hrs (to my preference) to preferment in fridge. But as I am working and want to produce good bread in the shortest time, I am always looking for other method that can cut down the time but still produce God bread. Guess I am just one crazy fellow to even try changing the recipe method. 

sunhana's picture
sunhana

The link shared by mini oven has a lot of bakers that did this method. Indeed the bread produce is better. Will definitely try this soon. Once again thank you mini oven.http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20928/floating-dough-check

Mini oven, do u use this method all the time since u find it better?