The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Tourte de Siege

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golgi70's picture
golgi70

Tourte de Siege

So I gave PiPs formula a go as I'm interested in upping my whole grain/rye chops.  I did miss the salt he has added to the levain so I came up a bit short on salt which is noticable but nonetheless very tasty.  In addition I opted at the last minute to increase the batch size and needed more seed to build the levain and made it up with white starter so its probably a 95% Rye opposed to 100%.  Along with those changes i used whole Rye opposed to medium Rye. 

I used a machine mixer on speed 1 for about 15 minutes and then finished using wet hands.  I'm not totally sure what I'm looking for as far as development with this type of bread.  Once the dough cohesively gathered together using wet hands I called it done.  divided using flour and then used wet hands to round and flatten.  I think I could have flattened them less during the shape and gotten a slightly higher profile.  None the less it accompanied my tuna salad with wonder.  Great crunch, simple flavor.  And as was mentioned this bread is just great with some high quality butter. 

Any feedback as to mixing, proofing is greatly appreciated.

 

josh

I cut this too soon as I really wanted a taste and needed some bread for dinner.  There are a few more that are uncut. I'll slice and add improved crumb shot tonight. 

Josh

Comments

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Tourte de Siege but your post is the only one that came up so I don't know what Phil's recipe was exactly,  Were you making tortas out of one of his bread recipes? Perhaps you could provide a link?

Usually a 100% rye at 100% hydration or so would be tinned since it has little gluten and loves to spread otherwise.  Usually after a couple of minutes of mixing to get everything incorporated that is all you need.

I would think that no pushing down on the (rolls?) would be required as it will flatten all by itself.

For proofing Phil told me to cover the tin with bran and when it cracks it is time for the oven.  I'm not sure this would work with a roll that is spreading,  Your after baking cracks look like it was ready for the oven and it had some oommph. 

Perhaps Phil, Andy or Mini will chime in.

Nice rye!

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Tourte de Siege and your post was the only one that came up.  Do youhave a link to Phil's recipe? 

He told me to put bran on top of the 100% rye dough at near 100% hydration when in a tin and to bake it when the bran starts to crack.  if baking this dough free form as a roll, i'm not sure how that would work.

I would think no pushing down is necessary though sine this dough will spread if not contained at a high hydration.  Your cracks tell me that the dough still had some oomph left in it and was not over proofed t- he bane of rye breads.

A nice rye all in all.  Maybe Phil, Andy or Mini will chime in,

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Hey dabrownman,

The link to the torte I did is here.

This bread is not that high in hydration. The idea is to proof it seam side down with a even coating of flour on the surface then proof in a relatively warm and dry environment and allow the dough to crack as it expands. It is a bit tricky to judge to proof length ... 

I have made this bread a few times since that post and had even better results when I didn't flatten the dough as much before proofing. It had a nicer shape.

Cheers,
Phil

golgi70's picture
golgi70

As Phil already filled you in its written as 77% hydration if my memory serves me right.  After mixing with wet hands I'm sure that creeps upwards of 80% but I didn't weigh my hand water.  The first thing I thought was next time I'd just barely flatten the top and let the rest of it come from natural spreading.  It's actually quite a nice bread sliced thin with tuna, butter, egg salad.   I will certainly try this again.  I imagine its a bit softer with medium rye and maybe even a touch more open.  But I really like the flavor so I'm stickin with the whole rye.  If my loaves just stood up a touch more it'd been picture perfect.  A hard sell here in the states.  Gotta convince them to try it and how to eat it.  Then you get a few that fall for it.  

Gotta love Rye

Thanks for the formula Phil

 

Josh

PiPs's picture
PiPs

No worries Josh,

Your bread looks great ... The crumb is a bit darker due to the wholegrains ... I like it.

i would love to sell these types of bread here, but like you, I think it would be a hard sell.

Are you selling these at the markets?

cheers

Phil

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

as it should from Phil's post.  The cracking is perfect.  77% hydration is pretty low for a 100% whole rye but at least it wouldn't spread as much being proofed uncovered seam side down.  I don't think i would push it down any like Phil does now.  Heck, it is hard enough getting a rise out of rye :-)  I don't think i would let it proof uncovered either being that low hydration and would worry it would dry out adn not puff up like it should.  I'm pretty sure my apprentice would sneak some YW in it too - to open the crumb some but then it wouldn't be or taste the same either.  Another great bread to trybout.

The site has been acting weird of late.  First I get no hits when you do a search.   When I made my first comment and hit save, the site came back right away and said that the comment filed is required and I can't leave it blank - even though i had typed the comment in.   I went back to your post and sure enough there was no comment.  So I typed on a 2nd reply and it went in fine and was the only one.  Now the first comment shows up.?  Very weird.

Phil got me hooked on 100% rye about a year ago  - it is by far my favorite especially if it is baked pumpernickel style.  it is nice to have another Phil rye to to try out.   I think I will make flat rolls out of some of it for some smoked meat sandwiches too.  That crust is too gorgeous to pass up.

Happy baking.

golgi70's picture
golgi70

No this was a first time bake Phil.  I'm certain this would be a fine trade at the market but I think the true way to sell this would be to offer it thinly sliced and take all the hard work out of it.  I think in a bakery setting if you had it sliced with some good toppings (butter, tuna, mustard and a slice of pastrami)  you'd convince some how good it is.  Probably cost you as much to market it as you'd make from it.   

I don't know if making rolls out of this formula is a good idea Dab.  The crust is really hard, like chip your tooth crunchy.  This is a good thing when sliced thin but i think a roll would be tough to eat.  

 

Good Days All

Josh

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Josh,

My best advice with this type of loaf is to concentrate most of the fermentation time into your primary ferment [sour dough build].   I then add in a secondary ferment, which is carried out over a 4 hour period at a relatively warm temperature; adding a scald at this stage is great, for example [you could apply this to your grains and chops!].   When it comes to forming the final paste, that means there is little need for extensive fermentation causing the rye paste to break down.   You might aim for just 1 hour in bulk, and 1 hour maximum [probably less] for final proof.   But if you have carried out sufficient, or, more complex fermentation prior to mixing the final paste, then you should achieve sufficient volume to avoid any solid and gummy crumb.

I do realise you've got whole grains and chops in there which reduce volume potential.   I would avoid using all wholemeal rye if you can.   Try to find a lighter grade of rye to use in the final parts of mixing the paste.   We have a Light Rye 997 here in the UK which is great.   If not look for a white rye...it only needs to make up 20 - 30% of the total flour, but it will help the end quality of your bread.

There should be no problem with the hydration level that Phil used.   You use wet hands to shape the final form, and if you go any wetter, the paste will not keep its shape in that final proof time.

All good wishes

Andy

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

as it set for a day or two in linen?  Maybe the low hydration really made the crust too hard....100% rye hard rolls that break your teeth would be the hardest sell of all time :-)