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Help need using pastry knife attachment

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Magoo's picture
Magoo

Help need using pastry knife attachment

Hello,

we are a small commercial kitchen that doesn't specialise in pastry.

i have bought a hobart 30qt mixer and have ordered a pastry knife attachment to suit.

we currently make use of a large mixer with a fixed dough hook to make our shortcrust. As this is not suitable we purchased the above.

i need assistance from anybody who uses a large mixer utilising a pastry knife in regards to the speed used etc when cutting the fat/flour also when incorporating the liquid. Also the benefits of shortening vs butter ( or combination)

our products are savoury tarts, pies and quiches.

many thanks Aaron 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Aaron,

Do you mean one of these?

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1149&bih=653&q=paddle+beater&oq=paddle+beater&gs_l=img.12..0l3.7246.10536.0.13317.13.11.0.2.2.0.143.1048.9j2.11.0...0.0.0..1ac.1.17.img.FiCHOSCW3xo#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=P1iJCPETeZQ_1M%3A%3B0EQWyTA404okPM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi18.ebayimg.com%252F01%252Fi%252F07%252F4b%252Fb7%252Fda_1_bl.JPG%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fitm%252FNEW-60-QT-ALUMINUM-FLAT-BEATER-PADDLE-FOR-HOBART-MIXER-%252F200614985700%3B260%3B400

If so, then you would usually use second speed on a Hobart mixer and mix flour and fat until it forms a crumb.   So get rid of any lumps of fat, but do not allow the mass to form any sort of dough.   Shortening has no water content and is specifically designed to make tender shortcrust pastry.   Butter has water content of c. 15-20% which has a bearing on toughening in the finished paste if you mix it too much.   But, the flavour is way better; it also costs a lot more too.

Regarding mixing, the real key is not to crumbing, but once you add the water.   At this point you need to keep mixing to a minimum, and use first speed only to avoid any toughening in the paste.   It would be good practice to chill and rest the paste post mixing.

Best wishes

Andy

Magoo's picture
Magoo

one of these

So I should not mix fat / flour untill crumbling but just untill bread crumb like?

 

ohh and the benefit of vinegar With water?

Magoo's picture
Magoo

ananda's picture
ananda

I can't open the image Aaron,

Can you give me a link so I can view it online without having to download it please?   But, I should warn you that the paddle beater I showed you is the only attachment I have direct experience of using to make paste on an upright machine.   If you have something different, I might not be able to help further.

I don't understand the difference in your descriptions of crumbed fat/flour.   I've been as precise as I can on the end of a pc.   You appear to be over-complicating things.

If you add vinegar it will strengthen the gluten.   It depends how much pliability you require in the paste.   The best eating paste is the most difficult to work with as it is "short".   I don't add any acid, and instead adjust the mixing to suit the paste.   Sheeted paste might need a little more mixing for instance.   The savoury paste you are working with will most likely be sheeted.   But, the more mixing, the tougher the paste, and subsequent reduction in shortness regarding the mouthfeel of the paste when eaten.   Be sure to keep the liquid cold when added to the crumb.

Best wishes

Andy

ananda's picture
ananda

Yes, that does the same thing Aaron,

Regarding acid, it is more common to add a relaxant to paste.   Acid may achieve more of the opposite effect, in that it tightens up the gluten.

A more effective additive is probably something like L-Cysteine, even a touch of Sodium Metabishulphite.   But if you use these, added quantity is 75 parts per million on flour maximum...and I doubt you would be able to weigh that out accurately at your workplace.   Any overdosing is of course fatal, and the paste will fall to pieces.

My preference is to use other means....look at the strength of your flour, your mixing times, and the amount of resting time before you process further.   Also key is your choice of fat level in the formula, of course

A

Magoo's picture
Magoo

our current batches have been as follows

12kg flour

6 kg butter

1.8 liquid. (Egg and water, both very cold)

we do have shortening but a small hand batch was very fragile when we substituted for the butter.

we preduce the all the following from the above 

-8cm savoury tarts

-10cm savoury tarts and pies

-12.5 quiches

the concerns thus far are

-8cm tarts fragile and we are having losses each week during packing (2k pieces produced on average)

-pies need to have a more tender shell

-quiches must have minimal shrinking when bblinding I press with

http://www.angelequipment.net/pie-and-tart-presses.html

sorry foall the questions and your assistance is aappreciated ;)

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Aaron,

Would it help if you mixed the paste for the tarts separately?   If the paste is too fragile for these products, could you try reducing the fat level?   Say 40 - 45% on flour?

Shrinkage is best avoided by working with paste that is fully relaxed.

I'm looking at your formula and thinking the paste must be a high cost item for your business.   For a shortcrust formula for quiche, I would use 100% plain flour, 50% shortening, 1% salt and 25% water.   That may not produce the type of paste you are looking for, so just ignore this if you are happy with your current formula.   But 15% liquid in a savoury paste is asking quite a lot in terms of performance.   And butter plus egg is very costly compared to water and shortening.

Take care

Andy

Magoo's picture
Magoo

Thanks Andy

ill have a play and let you know

Aaron

FlourChild's picture
FlourChild

Acid in bread helps firms gluten strands- yes. But acid (like cider vinegar) added to pastry doughs actually helps relax the gluten (make it more extensible) without weakening it, which can be very desireable for pastry that will be rolled, like flaky crust (pate brisee). It isn't necessary for a pate sucree that you are pressing into the pan. Even if you are rolling the pate sucree, the sugar in it should help provide tenderness and so vinegar isn't normally included. I know this to be true, both from my own test baking/recipe development and from the writings of experts, but am at a loss to explain it. Any explanations, comments, musings are most welcome :)

Agree with Andy that your formula has a lot of liquid, which can make a pastry crust tough, both because it will form more gluten and because it will require more flour during rolling.  Is the reason you have so much liquid because your flour has a protein content that is too high?  Anything much over 9% protein in the flour is likely to produce a tough crust unless you really work hard to counteract it with extra fat, a dry dough, minimal handling, long refrigerated rest, etc.

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi FlourChild,

This is savoury paste.   So I was suggesting that liquid levels are too low in Aaron's formula, not too high!

Maybe I'm just being a cheap skate?   But sheeting savoury paste will be challenging if liquid is low and flour is very weak as well.   Maybe blocking for all products would be more effective; then some could be made with hot water to try to de-nature some protein and confer shortness that way?

Yes, I've seen citric acid, or, lemon juice listed in formulae for puff pastes, so your comments make sense.

Best wishes

Andy

FlourChild's picture
FlourChild

Sorry, Andy, hope I didn't complicate matters!  I was thinking of a savory pastry crust as an unsweetened flaky crust, which I would use for both sweet and savory fillings.  But upon re-reading I realize that you may be talking about something more like a savory cookie crust, with no flakiness intended.  Will read more carefully next time :)

Magoo's picture
Magoo

Hello flourchild,

not a cookie pastry but a shortcrust for quiches/pies and tarts

Cheers Aaron

Magoo's picture
Magoo

Ohh and no rollin etc. Pastry is mixed and then pressed with a pie/tart press press. I need a slightly flexible pastry that has minimal shrinkage when blinding.

A

7607dottie's picture
7607dottie

I have very similar set up. We mix all our flour salt shortening mixture let it set in cooler and add cold water, form and press into shells tins. I just got my pastry cutter for our hobart, and was wondering how yours turned out. Any tricks and or no nos would be greatly appreciated! Can you go straight from the crumb stage to the paste and straight to the press or do you have to have the setting stage in the cooler, and do you notice any difference using the pastry cutter vs. just a plain old paddle on the mixer?