The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Enriched Bread

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ghazi's picture
ghazi

Enriched Bread

Hello all

I have been trying to make a good sandwhich loaf which in turn i can make hot dog and burger buns out of the same batch of dough. Everytime i make it i use more whole wheat flour than white. Its all purpose im using no strong flour included.

By the second day the bread is very crumbly and does not hold its shape, can anybody give me some advice please?

 

Thanks

Ghazi

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Hi, Ghazi

Could you tell us what ingredients you used? Was there a preferment, or was it a straight dough.

-Khalid

ghazi's picture
ghazi

Hi Khalid 

Heres my recipe

300g whole wheat flour (which i soak the night before with 300ml water and very little dry yeast )

 

next day i add 200g white all purpose flour

10g salt

1/2 TSP dry yeast

TBSP olive oil

In the past i have tried it with milk, butter, eggs etc.. still get the same outcome of crumbly bread the next day that doesn't hold its structure. Will preferment help hold the bread together ? Or do i just need to use high gluten flour?

Thanks

Ghazi

 

 

 

Mebake's picture
Mebake

I believe that the Wholewheat sponge you have prepared the night beofre has over fermented, and thus overacidified. An over acidified sponge , especially one being a big part of the overall formula, will lead to a crumbly bread.

My advice would be to reduce the whole wehat flour in the sponge, and add it to the final dough instead. I suggest 100g of wholewheat with 100g of water with salt (1/4 tsp) and NO yeast will do the job.

-Khalid

ghazi's picture
ghazi

Ok thanks Khalid i will try this and let you know.

Ghazi

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Ghazi,

I very much agree with Khalid's advice about using white flour in the sponge and using your wholewheat in the final dough.   And I would make that white flour a "strong" flour, or bread flour too.

My further advice in relation to the type of dough you are trying to make is to use a stronger flour.   It doesn't have to be high gluten, but an All-Purpose flour is not ideal for making enriched bread...as you have found, it ends up like cake as the strength in the dough is difficult to develop.   Use at least a portion of bread flour, or, strong flour.   If you have taken out all the ingredients you mention, then it is no longer an enriched bread!

Best wishes

Andy

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

The soaker is more like a poolish, which is a preferment. However, the hydration appears to be low for such a high percentage of whole wheat; my own recipe is close to 80%.

And I use a 100% whole wheat poolish all the time; works fine.

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi tgrayson,

I agree that the soaker is indeed a poolish.

I stand by mine and Khalid's advice to use white flour in the pre-ferment and put the wholewheat in the final dough.

But, don't you think passing on advice to hydrate an enriched dough at 80% is not helpful at all to the OP?   He wants to make Burger Buns out of this.

Best wishes

Andy 

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

Hi Andy:

I didn't actually advise him to hydrate at 80%, merely said that this was what I used. I think his 60% is a pretty dry dough for something with so much whole wheat. As for whether 80% would be excessive for buns, well, I don't know. I haven't made buns with my whole wheat dough, but I bet they would maintain their shapes OK. My main point is that he probably needs more liquid; the exact quantity would be determined by experimentation. He surely could get into the 70% range without having shaping problems.

An excess of acidity doesn't seem plausible for his problem; it can't be as acidic as a sourdough, which doesn't suffer from the same issues. Using the whole wheat in the poolish is actually a good idea, because it softens the bran, making it less damaging to the gluten. I would label this practice as "recommended". If he is overproofing the poolish, he just needs to use less yeast.

I do agree that he should be using stronger flours, but not because the dough is enriched, but because it contains so much whole wheat. When using white flour, I will normally use AP when making sandwich loaves or dinner rolls. For my whole wheat dough, I used bread flour along with the WW, and I had some vital wheat gluten.

Taylor

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Taylor,

we need to know more about the anticipated fat and other enriching levels in the formula to make truly informed comments.

But for an enriched brown roll dough I would anticipate somewhere between 64 and 68% hydration...assuming fat level of around 5 to 7%.

i'm in the UK so comments about All Purpose flour don't apply.   UK plain flour is too weak for bread.   I don't believe in using vital wheat gluten; why not just use better quality flour?

Wholewheat flour ferments too quickly for my liking and breaks down the dough structure as a result.   It's more to do with the mineral content of the flour acting as yeast food than it is to do with acid impinging on dough strength as far as I'm concerned.   I much prefer to use a white flour in the pre-ferment, don't go with you on using wholewheat, sorry.

Much of it has to go on flour strength.   Here in the UK wholewheat bread flour performs very well indeed.   Plain flour is rubbish!

Best wishes

Andy

tgrayson's picture
tgrayson

"I don't believe in using vital wheat gluten; why not just use better quality flour?"

The term "quality" in this context comes across as a bit judgemental; why is using high gluten flour superior to using vital wheat gluten? Truly high gluten flour is hard to find in the US; I'd have to order it. About the best you can do locally is King Arthur's Bread Flour, which is 13.7%.

I also don't accept the idea that whole wheat ferments too quickly; use less yeast. Seriously, I've never heard anyone ever discourage the use of whole wheat flour in a preferment. It's done all the time and works just fine.

 

 

 

 

proth5's picture
proth5

I am rather curious about what you said about whole grain pre ferments.  Are you just referring to breads where you were intending to use a portion of white flour - and if so then you would prefer to use white flour inthe pre ferment.

I understand the faster rate of fermentation, etc, but I (and other bakers that I respect) do use whole wheat pre ferments, both commercially yeasted and levain based in both home (and commercial) baking.

I'm quite interested in your reasoning so let me know.

Pat

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Taylor, Pat,

I am looking at the formula and trying to help the OP here.   There is 60% pre-fermented flour, all wholewheat, and the resulting problems have led to the omission of all the enriching ingredients when making up the dough.   Omission of these ingredients has the affect Taylor identified, that the dough lacks hydration, although I agree that with 60% wholewheat, the water quantity is short anyway.   But extra water alone isn't necessarily going to lead to the correct formula.

My personal preference in a wheat pre-ferment is to use white flour.   I am not saying that using wholewheat is wrong.   And when I do want to use a wholegrain flour as part of the pre-ferment, I have a wonderful wholegrain rye sourdough culture to use.   Wholewheat ferments do break down quicker, and especially when used as a liquid pre-ferment.   I've been using stiff pre-ferments with white bread flour for a long time now, and that is because I find it an effective way to control fermentation.   For an enriched dough, a white wheat-based pre-ferment would be my preference, and i would add any wholewheat flour in the final dough.

Yes, soaking wholegrain flours is a good idea, but I use autolyse to accomplish this.   Using a stiff pre-ferment means I can give full hydration in the autolyse before pulling it all together as a final dough.

This is my preference, not gospel.   However, I think that my reasons are pretty sound.   And that does not mean I am avoiding wholegrain in bread formulae; far from it.

I could name numerous bakers who maintain white wheat-based pre-ferments in the main; the same ones, I believe, who you most respect Pat.   I'm not really sure what more you want me to say on faster fermentation of wholewheat.   Surely it's a matter of personal preference given that we seem to agree on the affects of using wholegrain flour in pre-ferments?

I am trying to help ghazi to come up with a formula for enriched dough which can be used for making sandwich bread and burger buns; the original topic for discussion.   I'm happy with the advice I've offered and would really rather stay "on-topic" here than get dragged into technical discussions which belong elsewhere on the TFL pages.

Respect

Andy

proth5's picture
proth5

Thanks for the reply.  I thought that it might be a "situational" response (the formula in question being the situation) - although it didn't quite read that way - which is why I asked.  From time to time I do seek deeper undertanding.

I have experience with the faster fermentation of whole wheat - no explanation needed.  I, too, tend to use only firm pre ferments for whole wheat for that exact reason. Better control.

I appreciate the clarification and in no way intended to hijack the thread. (See? We all can be misunderstood in this medium)

I believe we are in violent agreement.

Thanks again.

Pat

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

As txfarmer and JMonkey (and possibly others) have pointed out in other posts, extended kneading of WW doughs is also helpful in developing a soft-textured crumb that is less prone to crumbling.

If we summarize the suggestions so far, things to try would include:

- additional hydration

- WW autolyze, rather than WW sponge

- additional fat content

- higher, rather than lower, protein content in the white flour used

- longer kneading

Some, or maybe even all of those suggestions, should help the the OP's quest for a crumb that doesn't crumble after the first day.

Paul

ghazi's picture
ghazi

Wow, thank you all so much for the advice. I have been feeling bad lately becuse my bread hasn't been turning out the way i would like it, in the past i always used organic bread flour. In Bahrain where im from its difficult to come accross a "good" high gluten all the time so i have switched to local AP which is showing less than happy results.

I will take all the info into account and thnks to everyone for their input.

Of course will update with pictures when i do another batch over the weekend.

Best regards

Ghazi