The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

GF Experiments #3

  • Pin It
Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

GF Experiments #3

Yay, That's It! Or so.

/* Update: Photos of the finished panned loaf at the end */

This is the crumb I am looking for! Quinoa sourdough bread, gluten free!

Unfortunately -

closer to the centre of the bread I get this crumb:

The gummy bit near the bottom tells me that something is wrong with my baking. Right now I have another Quinoa loaf in the oven, panned, on a lower heat. We'll see what happens.

But first about the bread above.

The formula is on this Google spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkcYHhPxccKtdEVQSXJJUWt4ZVdQa044dlkyQzhNZ2c&usp=sharing

or here in cleartext:

Quinoa Sourdough #1
   
Expected Yield600 
Factor2.521008403 
   
 Bakers %Weight
Straight Dough  
Quinoa60151.26
Tapioca2050.42
Potato Starch2050.42
Psyllium615.13
Salt25.04
Water130327.73
Yield238600.00
   
Psyllium Soaker  
Psyllium615.13
Water100252.10
   
Quinoa Sour  
Quinoa3075.63
Water3075.63
Mature Quinoa Sour615.13
   
Final Dough  
Quinoa3075.63
Tapioca2050.42
Potato Starch2050.42
Salt25.04
Psyllium Soaker106267.23
Water00.00
Quinoa Sour60151.26
Yield238600.00

The quinoa sour ripened for about 8 hours at room temperature. The mix is quite quick, once the ingredients (photo below) are well incorporated and the mass gets smoother we're done.

Shaping works best with wet hands. I wanted to proof and bake this loaf freestanding - maybe not the greatest idea. 

The bread proofed on a baking sheet for about 1.5 hours.

It then baked in a preheated oven (240C) on a baking stone, the oven was turned down to 210C immediately. Baking time 50 minutes.

Here a photo of the finished loaf (1100g), glazed with potato starch roux just before and after the bake:

It spread considerably, turned out tobe quite flat and sank even more in the middle while cooling. You saw the crumb in the photos above.

I had similar issues with the Black Bread from ITJB, which makes me now believe that the fault is in my baking process.

I think that this very wet bread drains my baking stone of heat faster than my oven manages to replenish it, with the net effect of undercooked bottoms. I don't have this issue with drier, well aired breads.

Therefore I started another bake, same formula.

This time I took the quinoa sour a bit earlier, after 5 hours. It tasted and smelled more fruity at that point.

This time I panned the loaf (500g) and proofed at 26C for 2.5 hours, see the following photos.

The panned loaf:

And here the proofed loaf:

This loaf is in the oven right now, starting at 210C. After 30 minutes I turned it down to 175C. I intend to bake well over one hour.

Stay tuned.

Juergen

/* Update */

Almost there. 

I baked this loaf, starting at 210C, finishing at 175C, fot about 80 minutes. After 60 minutes I unpanned the loaf.

After torning off the oven I let it cool in the oven for another hour.

The crust was very beautifully brown and crisp

but for Quinoa almost at the burnt side.

After unpanning the sides of the loaf started to cave in. You will notice it in the crumb shot, where there are some gummy patches.

 

All in all I am very pleased with my progress. For Quinua I will try baking longer at even lower temperatures. I might also try reducing hydration a bit. 130% seemed to be OK for the yeasted variant, but the sourdough feels quite different.

 

Comments

GAPOMA's picture
GAPOMA

Fingers crossed, Juergen.  Looks GREAT at this point!!

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Loaf #2 looks beter.

Thanks a lot,

Juergen

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Lovely!

Can't wait to see your loaf pan.

-Khalid

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Thank you,

Juergen

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Success!

Great resluts, Juergen. I love the crust and crumb. So, how was the flavor?

-Khalid

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

rich, definitely Quinoa, but not overpowering.

My family love it.

I changed the recipe and process a bit to get a more even crumb without those gummy bits.

Will post toon.

Thanks a lot,

Juergen

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Khalid, 

these came out of the oven just now. I'll post in greater detail later, but here the important bits:

Reduced overall hydration to 110%; used stiff quinoa starter (60% HL)

The lower hydration affects the look, can't get it that smooth properly, but the stability is better and the crumb is more even.

Cheers,

Juergen

 

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Excellent results, Juergen! The color of the crust is attractive. They rose tall too.

Let us see the crumb.

-khalid

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Bread still warm. Oh well... I feel bad ...

Here it is:

Crumb needs to set. 

The crust develops flavors like those boldly baked San Francisco sourdoughs. 

Mebake's picture
Mebake

The best crumb yet, Juergen.. Given the flavors you describe, the bread must be very delicious.  I think you have a winner!

-Khalid

RobynNZ's picture
RobynNZ

Hi Juergen

When 'pysllium' appeared in Gluten Free Gourmand and Laura T's posts my ears pricked up, and I have followed with great interest your experiments. The quinoa bread looks great. Thank you for such a thorough record of your work. I've no idea what quinoa's proteins' properties are, but one wonders if its high protein level has contributed to the excellent results you have obtained with such a simple formula (no eggs, no vinegar etc etc).

My sister-in-law has  a problem with store bought bread . She's ok with the occasional slice of my sourdoughs, but I live on an offshore island and only take sourdough to her from time to time. I have made a range of gluten free breads for her playing with various flour combinations, using dry yeast and their bread machine.  I keep trying in the hope that I can come up with a combination that tastes good and thaws well. She eats it as 'treat' food, so stores it in the freezer. All the breads I have made to date do not thaw well (they crumble). All of them have included eggs, honey, oil, vinegar, xanthan gum or guar gum - formula found online or in the numerous books I have had from the library invariably include all these ingredients. Actually the one she likes the flavour of best was introduced here on TFL by Sonia:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/27096/really-good-glutenfree-flax-bread

Tomorrow morning I'm to be 'mother helper' at my niece's pre-school and will take her back to their home for the afternoon, so tomorrow we will give a yeast version of your formula a run. I will use the breadmaker, because I want to come up with something my S-I-L can easily make in the course of her busy, busy schoolteacher , mother of three life.

I checked prices online at the store I can get to today, it sells organic quinoa flour for $NZ14.60/kg, sounds so expensive when compared to my wheatflour at around $NZ2/kg. But costing out a loaf and adjusting it for finished weight (using 20% baking loss), a loaf of equivalent weight to that on sale would only cost 40% of the most prominent line in the supermarket. Their various gluten free breads are 520 ~ 580g and sell for $NZ8.39. Their regular range products sell for  $NZ4.99 and weigh around 720 ~ 750g depending on particular bread. You might be interested to see they too use pysllium:

http://www.vogels.co.nz/products/Bread/Gluten-Free-Bread?c=1&r=2

How long til you start playing with adding seeds, I wonder......

The test here will be how well it performs when thawed. But great to have a different flavour profile for her too, even if it does crumble.  Am wondering if the acid contribution of your starter has a functional role in your bread.... maybe I will need to add a bit of vinegar but I'll try the 'naked' formula first.

Will report back

Cheers, Robyn

 

 

 

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Robyn,

Thank you very much for your comment. 

I am a bit in a hurry now,but - 

the sourdough version behaves quite differently. I thik that Quinoa sourdough is very rich in enzymes and has different needs.

If you want to make a yeasted version, PLEASE use the formulas here:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/33651/some-gf-experiments

and here

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkcYHhPxccKtdG5aRV96RVY3TUkzdWM1R0tWcndmaXc#gid=0

and select the Quinoa tab near the bottom.

I will paste the yeasted formula later today when I get a chance.

This needs a long bake, the 500g loaves need about 80 minutes starting at 190C, I then turn the oven lower every 15 minutes to arrive at 120C. Unpan and put them back in the oven for another 5 minutes. This is to avoid shrinking.

Best Wishes,

Juergen

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

This is for a 550g loaf

Psyllium soaker:

Psyllium husks 13.8g(6%)

Water 276g(120%)

Final Dough:

Quinoa flour 138g(60%)

Potato starch 46g(20%)

Tapioca Starch 46g(20%)

Water 23g(10%)

Salt 4.6g(2%)

Instant Yeast 1.6g(0.7%)

Psyllium soaker 289g(126%)

Total Yield 238.7%

 

RobynNZ's picture
RobynNZ

Hi again Juergen,

I did go back and recheck your earlier yeast formula. As I'll be experimenting with their bread machine, won't be able to do the dropping oven temp procedure, but I will put it in their oven if it still needs some more finishing once the bread machine cycle is over, thanks for the heads up.  Unfortunately, if required, that will count against it being a relatively easy bread for my sister-in-law to manage. I'm going with a 3.5 times factor to make a final dough of 835 grams. I have been scaling to 837ish grams because I know that works well in the capacity of the bread machine. A larger loaf will contribute to timing calculations as well. I'll try and figure out the best cycle to use on the machine.  

I dashed out this afternoon for quinoa flour between hail downpours, NZ is in the grip of a nasty winter storm - sleet, snow, hail, gales. My niece and I will enjoy being inside and  baking together tomorrow - our version of batten down the hatches as the met service has been telling us to do.

Will report back tomorrow night.

Cheers, Robyn

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Enjoy your winter baking session!

We here in the UK enjoy the first hot days of the year ...

Cheers,

Juergen

Samantha M's picture
Samantha M

Wow! I'm impressed! I'm not sure if I understand your formulas? Are these like bakers percentage formulas? I'm still learning about BP and adapting for gluten free. Can you share with me your knowledge. Also I'm about to dive deeper into my practices of gf sourdough and would appreciate any info you could lend me that you have learnt. If you can email me samanthamatete@hotmail.com or just share on here.....

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Samantha, I am impressed with your blog (I didn't have time to read in-depth yet).

 Your discussion of sourdoughs is very interesting.

My GF experiments got a bit stuck due to the general demands of everyday life ... 

But I am very happy with my rice sourdough bread, it has become a family favourite despite the fact that we all are wheat eaters.

I'll contact you with more details.

I found that both rice and quinoa cultures are very resilient. My quinoa culture has lived in the fridge for 2 months now and didn't change at all.

When experimenting with rice (brown wholegrain) I found that starting a sourdough with rice flour was difficult with purchased ready milled flour, but quite easy with home milled flour. I use purchased rice flour to maintain it without any problems.

In my experience quinoa bread as above is a bit tricky to bake, but the process for my rice sourdough is very similar to my "Russian Rye".

Temperature during fermentation is quite key - it should be around 28C.Ihad 25C in my kitchen when making my latest batch, and it didn't rise as well as usual. 

That's it for the moment.

Happy Baking,

Juergen

PS.

A picture of my rice sourdough

dosco's picture
dosco

Juergen:

I made a batch this morning, it is in a loaf pan in the fridge right now. I'll bake it this evening.

More later!

Regards-
Dave

 

dosco's picture
dosco

I forgot to add the commercial yeast. Also, it had to sit for awhile after final mixing ... end result was a large "bubble" that looked like a loaf ... but when I cut it in half there was a puddle of gooey sludge at the bottom and a large hollow cavity.

Fail!! Photo (apologies for the lame quality) below.

Will try again...to avoid this again I presume that one is to mix it and promptly bake?

Cheers-
Dave

 

Sourdoughty's picture
Sourdoughty

Wow that is just .. brilliantly epic ..

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Dave, 

I hope this doesn't discourage you.

I had several breads like this when I experimented with my Quinoa sourdough formula.

I found that Quinoa retains a lot of water, and it is very challenging to bake that water off. 

Also I tried to mix in other flours - the changes to the finished bread were rather unpredictable. 

This is the main reason why my GF experiments got stuck - I have a rice bread which everyone loves, and I have a quinoa bread which is great, but simply too expensive. And for the other possibilities I would have to put in a lot of time to experiment, and Ican't do that at the moment.

Anyway, I wish you good luck, and if you have any more questions please ask.

 

Cheers,

Juergen