The Fresh Loaf

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Bagel Experiment: Proof in Fridge with Parchment Paper and Without / Sticking Problem Still Continues

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DulceBHbc's picture
DulceBHbc

Bagel Experiment: Proof in Fridge with Parchment Paper and Without / Sticking Problem Still Continues

Hello. Based on the suggestions I got from the thread I posted about the massive-sticking problem with my bagel production lately, I did a little experiment with my next batch of bagels.

Prologue: I'm using Peter Reinhart's recipe.

When I set the bagels to proof, instead of resting them on my baking pan in the fridge, I lined the pan with parchment paper. This proved to make a major difference in the appearance and rise of the bagels.

This photo shows the bagels after boiling. As you can see, there's a marked difference between two of the bagels on the upper right and the rest of the batch. Those two bagels were proofed in the fridge directly on the baking pan, while the rest were proofed on parchment paper. 

The bagels proofed on parchment paper looked better already, even before baking!

This is how the bagels looked after baking (about a minute too long!):

The bagels proofed on the parchment paper had a much better rise, and overall look better. The ones proofed directly on the baking sheet look more blistered and were a bit flatter.

Then the problem with sticking came up again. I blotted/dried the bottom of each bagel after their boiling on a thick piece of paper towel. While the sticking wasn't as bad as before, it was still not ideal by any means:

 I am guessing that two things caused this:

1. The bagels were still a bit wet after the water bath, despite blotting the majority of the water off the bottom.
2. I need to use something like a Silpat or grease the bottom of the pan.

One thing I realized was that when I took the bagels out halfway into baking to detach them from the bottom of the pan before they could fully lodge themselves, they didn't end up sticking after they were done baking. It's kind of a pain in the ass to do this, though.

Despite all of this, the texture and bounce of the bagels were magnificent! I'm glad I did this experiment. Now I know to proof on parchment!

Here's one of the bagels used to make a breakfast sandwich this morning:

 

Many thanks in advance for any additional thoughts or suggestions.

sunyfun's picture
sunyfun

You can solve the sticking problem by using the same sheet of parchment paper you used to proof in the fridge to bake those bagels.

isand66's picture
isand66

Yes, bake them on the parchment paper...problem solved.  I bake almost everything right on the parchment paper.  That breakfast sandwich is making my mouth water!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

semolina on parchment and put the boiled bagel on it after slightly drying them.  Nothing sticks to parchment with semolina but baking them on a cookie sheet that isn't lined with parchment is courting the sticking gods :-)

Here is a picture

Happy bagel baking

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/30300/22-whole-multigrain-sd-yw-bagels-%E2%80%93-stan-ginsberg-method#comments

DulceBHbc's picture
DulceBHbc

Looks like the resounding recommendation is to use parchment paper. I'll give it a go next time! I remember using it back in the day, and my bagels still stuck. I didn't blot them before putting them onto the surface of the parchment though, so perhaps the combination of parchment + blotting = NO STICKING!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

all by itself.   I just put semolina on it to make the bagels authentic. 

Happy baking

MichaelH's picture
MichaelH

I have had problems with parchment paper sticking and burning at temps as low as 425*. I tried King Arthur and have never had a problem since. I usually am able to reuse it 3-4 times before repalcement. I'm sure there are other reliable brands, but I don't know how to tell the difference, so I stick with KA. I don't spray it or sprinkle anything on it, and I often line my dutch oven with it for no knead beads,

DulceBHbc's picture
DulceBHbc

but will also try with Reynolds. Will report my findings.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

at th grocery by Reynolds work great too - very expensive though.  I get 100 1/2 baking sheets at the Bosch deeler and they work great too.

trailrunner's picture
trailrunner

I use Susan at Wild Yeast's sourdough bagel recipe. I use it weekly and have for more than a year so a lot of bagels !  Proof over night in fridge  on parchment that is heavily sprinkled with cornmeal or semolina...either is fine. Remove from fridge just before boil. Place in boiling water and then  on to a cooling rack for just a minute or so then place back on the same parchment that they were retarded on. Before you place them in the water to boil you dust off the loose cornmeal/semolina. Bake as is on the parchment. There is NO way you will have anything stick.it isn't possible. Also I buy my 1000 sheets at time of parchment from ebay..she is a wonderful merchant and the parchment is the best I have used yet. Good Luck...susan's formula is better than any I have ever tried ! c

sourdoughnut's picture
sourdoughnut

After I boil them, I put them on a wire rack to dry - never have any need to dry them manually. Bake on parchment . To prevent the parchment from burning, trim the sides closer to the bagels. I've found that the only time mine burns is when I have excess hanging over the edge or sticking up off the sheet. I'll even reuse my parchment until it is so brittle it crumbles.

Elagins's picture
Elagins

I retard my bagels on a piece of 1/4" plywood dusted generously with cornmeal, then boil and bake them on bagel boards, flipping them directly onto my stone after setting the tops/bottoms for 3 minutes. Result: nice, round cross-sections, with nary a flat bottom in the bunch. Also, incidentally, have never had a sticking problem, as long as the plywood is perfectly dry when I put the bagels on. Also, the cornmeal drops off during boiling, so no yellow flecks. I've used Peter Reinhart's recipe and, with all due respect (I know Peter and like him immensely), I think his preferment technique is redundant, given the 12-18 hour retardation all proper bagels have.  I suggest you take a look at the NY water bagel recipe in "Inside the Jewish Bakery" for the real deal.

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com

DulceBHbc's picture
DulceBHbc

Hey! I'm excited to try out your new recipe. I've made and remade Peter Reinhart's seminal recipe, with slightly different results each time. (I'm sure it has less to do with the recipe than the water, weather, etc.) 

I'll give it a go tonight and will report my findings. I don't have a piece of plywood or bagel boards, so the results will be based on my steel baking sheet and proofing with parchment.

Do you have a recommendation for a bagel board? Can I use a pizza stone instead? 

Elagins's picture
Elagins

but it explains what bagel boards are.  The formula is simple, for a dozen 3-oz bagels:

650g high-gluten flour, e.g. All Trumps or Sir Lancelot
325ml water
18g malt powder
12g salt
3g fresh yeast

Mix/knead until smooth, let stand 20 minutes, shape your bagels, retard them overnight, then boil & bake at 460F.

You can find info on bagel boards at http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=8.

Stan

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

SD man times and yeasted versions several times and the SD ones are by far the better taste and texture wise.  You call for flipping half way though the bake a the 8 minute mark for the SD version when you take out the steam.but I still get a flat bottom that way.  Now I'm going to try flipping at the 3 minute mark and start them out with the flat side up first, .  I'm not sure how I'm going to get a bagel board in the mini oven :-)

Thanks for the tips Stan and happy baking

Elagins's picture
Elagins

that's why your bottoms are flat: after 8 minutes, the crust is very firmly set. The advantage to a bagel board is that it's lined with burlap, which you wet before putting the bagels on. That keeps the side in contact (bottom/top) steamed and flexible, which both gives them that nice circular spring when they're flipped and also further contributes to the gelatinization of the surface starch, which is what produces the shine and the chewiness.

Stan

MANNA's picture
MANNA

Stan, any advice on where to purchase burlap? My local hardware store has it but I just dont get a warm fuzzy using it for food.

Elagins's picture
Elagins

you just have to put it through one or two wash cycles to get rid of the sizing, then find some 1"x4"x16" boards, double or triple the burlap and fasten it onto one side of the board .... or you can buy a set of 3 boards from www.nybakers.com.

Stan

DulceBHbc's picture
DulceBHbc

What does "SD" mean? 

mrfrost's picture
mrfrost

sourdough

winstonsmith's picture
winstonsmith

I bought a box from here http://www.culinarycookware.com/exopap-parchment-paper.html

It's gone up $20 from the last time so I'm not sure it's the best price anymore, but it's a couple of years worth or more for me. 

MANNA's picture
MANNA

Finally got around to posting. This is how I make my bagels with no sticking problems. I spray a half-shhet pan with spray oil and dust with cornmeal. Shape the bagels and place on the pan. Cover with a cloth and put inside a plastic bag. Place in fridge and let cold rise overnight. Next morning remove from fridge and into water bath. Remove from water to cooling rack for a quick drip-dry. Then add toppings and right back onto sheet pan from the fridge. Into the oven they go and I have had zero problems with them sticking. Stan is right and my bottoms are a little flat, but not much.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Manna.  Nice job!

DulceBHbc's picture
DulceBHbc

These bagels are BEAUTIFUL! How's the crumb? They look a little bready?

What recipe do you use?

MANNA's picture
MANNA

Here is the link to my bagel recipe and method. The recipe is mine. Played around with the ratios intill I got something my wife and I like. She is from the Bronx so it really had to live-up to her standard. I like a malty bagel so there is more malt than most recipes out there. They arnt very bready. Chewy interior with a nice pull to them when bitten and crust is nice and hard. I have a theory on the boiling water but will post on that another time after I conduct some field tests and have some friends over for a taste test. Im 100% that the bagel must be boiled its just what its boiled in. Does it really need to be malt syrup? And do different product yeild different results? So I have an array of products I will test in the water and post results and consumer feedback on the different bagels. Look for it this summer.

 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/33521/bagels

 

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

boil for bagels - not BM Syrup or baking soda.  Bagels are really big, fat, round, stiff, crispy, chewy pretzels with a hole in the middle of them :-)  They shoufd be crispy on the outside and chewy on the inside,  Before 1870 they were sourdough.only.

catlick's picture
catlick

Spray the parchment with cooking oil....works great!

DulceBHbc's picture
DulceBHbc

Took all of your suggestions and baked with parchment paper. It worked like a DREAM! No sticking whatsoever, and I can even reuse the parchment since it didn't tear or crack.

See results below. Only problem now is the surface texture of the bagels. They don't look that pretty and perfect. One, some bagels show the pattern of the buckling parchment paper during proofing in the fridge (the striations!), and, two, the don't have the smoothness that makes commercial bagels so beautifully consistent. I need to work on shaping too, obviously. I tend to massage the dough into a string, then loop it closed. Maybe I should try adopting the pinhole method.

I'm happy with the crumb: it's dense, just like a bagel should be!

bobku's picture
bobku

I know this post is a little old but I retard my bagels overnight on a tray lined with plastic wrap then  cover the top with plastic wrap no oil sprayed at all, when I remove them from the refrigerator I'll just peel back plastic wrap remove bagels  and drop in water, never had a sticking problem. I then drain them slightly on rack over sink and place on a peel covered with parchment paper and slide on to baking stone. They have never stuck to parchment paper. I think the sticking problem occurs when the bagels are not drained for a few seconds and the bottoms are to wet.