The Fresh Loaf

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Hydration Adjustment When Adding Rye Flour

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Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hydration Adjustment When Adding Rye Flour

I am planning to add some rye flour to a recipe that doesn't originally have any.  Should the hydration be adjusted any?  I know when adding whole wheat flour, hydration should go up due to it soaking up the water more but what about rye flour?  I should know the answer to this question by now, but I am still on vacation brain.

John

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

But you knew that was coming, right?

Two key variables: type of rye flour (white, dark, whole grain) and percentage of rye flour.  The darker the flour and the higher the percentage, the more water it will absorb.  If you're only adding 5% of white rye, you might not feel any need to increase the hydration.  If you are replacing 25% of the AP or bread flour with whole rye, you probably will want to add more water.  And so on.

The dough will tell you what it wants.

Paul

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Do two vacation (holiday) brains make a whole brain?  

Rye soaks up water too so you probably will need to add more water, then again... it depends on how much you plan to substitute.  I might have the extra water measured and parked on the side to use if you need it.  Let's say you want to substitute 100g to a 70% hydration recipe.  That would mean that 70g of water would be reserved somewhere for that hundred grams of flour in the recipe.   But rye really likes 83 and up so think about adding 13g more water for a panned loaf.  Wait and see if you need it.  If the dough is real sticky, wetting your hands to handle the dough may be enough to add the extra moisture needed.  :)

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Mini.

Here is the recipe:

Levain

220g bread flour

284g water

45g 100% hydration rye starter

 

Soaker

326g various seeds

369 g boiling water

6g salt

 

Final Build

510g Levain

All of soaker

346g bread flour (reduced from original 436g)

227g whole wheat flour

90g rye flour

18g vital wheat gluten

238g water

17g salt

 

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thank you Paul.  Yes, I was expecting the answer to be as such.  I am adding 10% rye of the total flour %, in other words, replacing 10% of the bread flour to rye.  The rye flour I am using is 15g protein per 100g, 100% whole grain organic.

I will probably just go with feel in the mixing stage to tell if more water is needed or not.

John

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi John,

Just reading responses to your question and I agree with what has been said....You will know by the feel of the dough and you really aren't adding that much rye.  After mixing the all of the ingredients you might let it rest for a bit to absorb the water and then make adjustments if necessary - like Mini said - with wet hands when handling the dough.

One question for you - why the added gluten?

Janet

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Janet.  Thank you for the feedback.  The gluten was part of the original JH formula I believe.  Or at least it was part of the formula I found a while back on the internet, and just never changed that part.

John

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi John,

I used to think I had to add gluten too before I 'found' TFL....now I don't ever use it.  Trick = ww flour has to be kneaded longer.  I imagine your Canadian flours are plenty strong on their own.  Will be curious to see if you ever do a 'test' between 2 loaves - one with and one without to see what results you get...that's not a challenge by the way :)

Thanks for the response!

Janet

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Janet.  I would love to exclude the use of vital wheat gluten in a loaf such as this.  I do have 2 full packages of Bob's Mill Vital Wheat Gluten.  Pricey stuff so I would hate to have it thrown out.  Maybe I should get some formulas to try out that have higher amounts of whole wheat in them, to use the vital wg up.

Thanks for the info!

John

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

I use 100% wwheat, rye, spelt, kamut,eikorn, rice, corn or barley in all of my breads that I bake daily and none need extra gluten at all.  I kept my bag of the stuff around for awhile 'just in case' and finally gave it to a friend who does use it.

Have you checked out txfarmer's 100% whole wheat loaves yet?  She has several and her technique makes great 100% whole grain breads :)

Have fun :)

Janet

P.S.  The loaf I have right by my name is 100% ww made with sour dough - no extra gluten.  (I will spike with IY on occasion depending on the add ins a specific bread might have.  99.9% of mine are made with sd and bulk ferment overnight in the refrig. as outlined by txfarmers method.)

 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

I did not know that vital wheat gluten would be so unnecessary.  I wish I hadn't bought so much of it when I first started baking bread! 

You learn something new everyday on this site.  Including the fact that txfarmer is a female.  For some reason I always pictured a male on the other side of the tag.  Oops!

Thanks again for all the info Janet.

John

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi John,

I had to smile at your comment on wishing you hadn't bought so much of it to begin with....Someday we (TFLers) all should have a 'excess' bread paraphernalia sale somehow :)  I have quite a bit stored away in my basement hoping to pass on to my children :)  When I make purchases now I try to remember MODERATION....not part of my working vocablary though *- }

Can't you return the gluten (unopened bag) to the store?

Take Care,

Janet 

P.S.  Yes, tags can be deceiving.....

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Unfortunately no.  I bought the first one when I first tried the above recipe last October.  Practically still full.  The second one I purchased when I wasn't at home but wanted to bake this bread.  Also practically full.  I am feeling very vital wheat gluten intolerant right now.

John

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

  I know the feeling only too well. *- }

Fun to experiment with.  Just take a couple of TB full and add a bit of water and you will be surprised at what you get....kinda scary.

Janet

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

you may need a little less water.  (vital wheat gluten)

    Not only that, txfarmer's no longer in Texas!  

I'm packing my bags and heading back to Austria.  I did find a way to tackle gummy crumb...  Nuke it in the Microwave!  Next Friday, I'm in Europe!  Most likely sleeping after the long trip! Lol!  I gotta take pictures of potatoes before I leave.  The harvest is in.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Mini.  Wow, you really jump around a lot!  Both in homes and in conversation lol.  You keep me amused with your narratives :)

Regarding the gummy crumb, I had to laugh when I got back from my vacation.  I kept the underbaked Swedish Rye loaves in the fridge while away, forgetting to throw them out.  My inlaws were taking care of our cat and when we returned, they commented on how yummy the bread was in the fridge!  Ack!  They loved it and ate almost a whole loaf.  Go figure.

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

many times.  The gel "stales" and is no longer sticky.  You will find it tastes better too now that it has aged.  (Ack!)!  Rye is like that.  Yummm!   (maybe it's an older taste bud thingy) 

My last few rye loaves have given me lots of experimental gum.  I nuke a tightly wrapped half a loaf (or 900g cube) 3 to 4 minutes on high stopping once to flip it upside down.  The rays head straight for the gummy moisture spots.  (Nico suggested it while testing the crumb.)  Remove with mitts and set on a rack to cool.  As soon as you can touch it easily, take some crazy cool vacuum packed looking photos with your camera then cut and remove the plastic wrap so the water can evaporate.  Wrap or bag when cool and chill for better "cure."   :)   

Just dumped all my starter jars and keep finding more.  :)    Too bad I won't be around to use all the extra refrigerator space!     (Don't worry, checked with my son in Austria, I have starter hibernating in good condition back home.) ✓

Happy Sunday Baking!

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

but still hoping to see a lot of you on TFL with your helpful advice.  I'm beginning to get a hang on feeding and maintaining my starter and learning to calculate hydration levels from other recipes. 

Safe travels...Judy