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Rye flour as an add-in

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leftypg's picture
leftypg

Rye flour as an add-in

I have a white sandwhich bread which I bake a couple of times a week.  I have been adding dark rye flour in small amounts to see what taste change I can get.  I'm up to 10 % in a formula which has 1170 grams of AP flour. There seems to be very little change in the taste. Two TBSP. of brown sugar is the only other addition.  I would like to get 'all the way to 'wherever I'm going' today----But I have 5 hungry cowboys to feed when they get back and I can't afford to be without good bread. Can some of you 'Rye Folks' head me in the right direction as to how much I can add without changing the character and handling qualities of the dough?   Appreciate it!

lefty

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

between taste and dough stability. If you use all your rye flour in the poolish (at any percentage) the taste will be much more intense than the taste your will get with rye flour as an add-on, but watch closely the dough: it will be more prone to over-proof and/or tear before eventually collapsing.

 

leftypg's picture
leftypg

nico,

Thank you for your response.  You must have been looking over my shoulder.  My experience reflects exactly what you suggested! 

I have been using this formula for a number of years as a basic bread for the farmhands---mstly because it's easy and everyone seems to like it.  I like to keep it simple because I bake it twicwe a week and two kilos at 67% hydration is about all I can handle.  Usually I bake it as a lean loaf or with 10% semolina added in---I get great rise and oven spring,  However, since I have been adding in the dark rye additions ( 5% and 10%) I get my usual fast rise during the bulk fermentation, but less and less oven spring.  Sometimes the dough 'goes soft' on me during shaping---exactly your description! 

I have never used a poolish with this particular formula----can you suggest how I could go about creating one?  I will give it a try!

Thank you for your time.

lefty

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

mixed rye bread is Hans Joakim's 40% rye

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18118/rye-and-macarons

but it's really challenging. The first time I'd try to reduce the amount of rye to 10% (all in the preferment) to see how the dough behaves. If you don't have a sourdough starter you can use 1% dry yeast with respect to the rye in the preferment.

Also, preparing the dough as you are used to and retarding it for 12 hours in the fridge - as Andy adviced - is another good option (probably less risky, too).

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi lefty,

I'm unsure what "all the way to wherever I'm going" means.

20% as Nico suggests may work for you; certainly 30% will change dough handling properties.

But I'm left thinking that there are other changes you could consider...that would have a lot more effect., although I don't know what process you use.   Nico makes mention of a "poolish", but I am not sure you reference any sort of pre-ferment.

Slowing down your fermentation [eg, take out the brown sugar which is unnecessary].   Can you cut back the yeast a bit and extend the bulk fermentation period?   Using an overnight pre-ferment will have most impact on the taste of your bread.   And if you then add in the rye you should get better flavour still.   Take note of Nico's advice: rye in the pre-ferment will make it less tolerant than using white wheat flour.

Best wishes

Andy

leftypg's picture
leftypg

Andy,

It's generous of you to take your time to address my little 'White Bread' problem. You and Nico mention subjects which I have wondered about, but have been unable to fathom. Yeast, salt, and sugar have crossed my mind, but fear of failure has prevented me from drifting too far away from this 'staple' formula--I must have bread on the table for 5 or 6 people--every day!

It's been so long that I am unsure of the genesis of this formula and I have incresed the amount of dough a couple of time as need arose. Last night I used the following method.

1045g  AP flour

125g    Dark rye (BRM)

792g    Water

6 tsp.   IY

6 tsp.   Table salt

2 Tbsp. Brown sugar

Mixed and 'sort of' folded in bowl 20 times-----------rested 20 minutes---------S&F and rise 30 minutes 3 times (total 3 S&F and about 90 minutes)---------pre shape and proof in covered roasting pan for 25 minutes-----scored and baked at 450 degrees f.  26 minutes----uncovered and baked at 400 degrees for 30 minutes.

Nice color and good taste, but no oven spring! I thought that the short fermentation rises were a function of my altitude ( 5,700 ft.) I'm in a mile high valley in the Nevada Desert and Range Country

Any suggestions will be appreciated.  Thanks again Andy

lefty

 

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

is that there too little water and too much yeast. A dry dough (67% is a very low percentage considering rye's absorption) won't permit the dough to flow easily. Too much yeast will probably consume all available sugars in very little time and leave no space to oven spring. 

Does your dough tear? 

Do you have a mixer? if so, did you try to mix the dough extensively? A more resistant structure will surely result in more oven spring than a dough just folded.