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Vollkorn-brat

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Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Vollkorn-brat

I wasn't going to post this vollkornbrot disaster, but Mini encouraged me to so I could get some advice and feedback on how to improve and fix the issues.  Thanks Mini because that is exactly what i need, is help with this.

I do know where the problem began, but not sure if it's the only issue.  I took a recipe and did not follow it word for word.  The recipe did NOT call for boiled rye berries.  I boiled them. This resulted in too much hydration.  A very surprising amount.   It resulted in a collapsed, wet loaf.  Two of them.  As you can see in the photos, after 4 days, it is still showing moisture sheen.  I indented the crumb with my finger to show how pasty it is.  Clearly a hydration issue.  What do you all think?  If I want to boil my berries first, how should I adjust the water amount in the recipe?  Why do I boil them?  I cant find rye chops so I make my own.  I boil the whole berries then drain then grind up in my food processor.

Here's the original formula.  As mentioned, the only deviation by me was to pre boil the berries then drain them and grind them up.  Also I did not have pumpernickel flour so I used dark rye flour:

For the Rye Sourdough:
Ingredients  Grams
pumpernickel flour  441
water  441
sourdough starter  22
For the Rye Chop Soaker:
Ingredients  Grams
rye chops or cracked rye  339
water  339
Rye Sourdough and Rye Chop Soaker Directions:
  1. Make the rye sourdough. Pour the water over the sourdough starter and stir to dissolve. Add the pumpernickel flour and mix until thoroughly hydrated.
  2. Make the rye chop soaker. In a separate bowl, stir together the rye chops and water.
  3. Cover the bowls and let stand at room temperature for 14 to 16 hours.

 

For the Final Vollkornbrot Dough:
Ingredients  Grams
pumpernickel flour  293
water, warm  101
salt  21
instant yeast  6
sunflower seeds  59
all of the rye sourdough, minus 2 1/2 tbsp   
all of the rye chop soaker   
Vollkornbrot Directions:

Mix. In a large bowl, mix together all of the final dough ingredients, just until thoroughly hydrated and a shaggy ball of dough is formed.

Continue mixing in the bowl for about 10 minutes, either by hand or using the first speed of your stand mixer. The dough will have weak gluten development and will be very sticky.

Desired Dough Temperature. 85ºF / 29ºF (slightly warm to the touch)

Bulk Ferment. 10 to 20 minutes at 82ºF / 28ºF (slightly warmer than room temperature)

Prepare a loaf pan by oiling and dusting with rye meal or pumpernickel flour.

Shape into 13- x 4-inch logs. Heavily dust your hands and work surface with whole rye flour for easier handling. Gently place the log in the oiled Pullman loaf pan and cover with plastic wrap.

Final Proof. 50 to 60 minutes at 82ºF / 28ºF.

Preheat Oven. 470ºF / 245ºC

Steam. 1 cup of boiling water poured into a heavy steam pan, preferably cast iron.

Bake for 15 minutes at 470ºF / 245ºC. Open the oven doors to let the steam out, lower the heat to 380ºF / 195ºC, and bake for another 60 minutes. Towards the end of the 60 minute baking time, prepare a sheet pan.

Remove the bread from the pan and immediately place on the sheet pan. Return to the oven and bake for another 15 minutes.

Cool. Let the loaves cool completely on a wire rack at room temperature. Wrap the vollkornbrot in linen and store in a cool draft-free place. Let rest for about 48 to 72 hours before slicing.

 

John

 

 

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

did you actually introduce when you used the boiled berries? 

Did you weigh them before boiling and after boiling/draining?

In my (limited) experience with this process the berries soak up a lot more water than the 100% you gave them.

I had some loaves looking like that, where I just couldn't bake off the water. I plan to tackle this in a pumpernickelish way - long bake in a falling oven, in a tin with a lid.

Thanks for posting,

Juergen

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Juergen.

I did pre weigh the berries before boiling.  Weight was 339 grams as per recipe.  I did not weigh after the boil but clearly they soaked up a LOT of water.  Boiled them for about 45 mins.  I added the same amount of water as the recipe calls for - 101 grams in the dough build.  This was the fatal mistake.  I should have started at 30 grams and worked my way up in the mixing stage.

All the videos/photos I have seen of this type of bread dough seems to be very shapable into a log, meaning not wet at all.  My dough turned out (no joke) like wet cement.  I have experienced wet dough like this in a Danish Rye but I am sure it is not correct at all for a Vollkornbrot.  I tried adding some flour (approx 100 grams) and it still didn't resemble anything shapeable, even after 20 minutes of hand mixing.  I just poured the goop into the loaf tins.

I either need to find rye chops or figure a way to adjust this recipe so it can account for the water soaking in during the boiling process.

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

all you need to do is subtract the difference from the liquids in the recipe.  (yup, think that is the only problem)

Have you tried throwing dried berries into the blender to chop them?  Dry?  

Another save might have been to add rolled oats, corn meal  or whole dry rye berries into the dough and allow to swell.  Add additional salt 2% on the added weight.  

Or if you have them,  other soaker-uppers can include

  • chia seeds (soak 4 times their weight in water) or
  • crushed linseed/flax  (they soak up their weight in water)
  • rice (2 times their weight in water) 

Looks like the bake was pretty even, nice colored crust on all sides.  You might want to dry the wet sides under the broiler or in a toaster oven.  Gummy parts can also be rolled into little balls or cut into cubes floured and fried then dropped into hot clear soup.

You can feed your starter some of the gummy parts along with fresh flour and looks like next to the crust is worth eating or soaking for another loaf.  Freeze in slices and thaw when you innoculate the starter, just slip them into loaves a couple of slices at a time.  

Mini

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi MIni thank you for the advice on salvaging some of the loaves.  I would think using the bread with salt in it would cause issues in feeding into my starter, no? (what the heck do I know!).

I have not tried to chop up the rye berries in my Magic Bullet blender.  I fear that the blades might get damaged.  It is not a strong food processor type machine.

Also, I was thinking about the comment of yours 'all you need to do is subtract the difference from the liquids in the recipe.'  Wouldn't there be an issue that some of the water during the boiling process stays IN the rye chops and berries and doesn't actually contribute to the hydration % in the dough? (again what do I know!)

John

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

what you need to do is mix up the dough to well, thick wet cement and then throw in the cooked berries like they are nuts.  

Try chopping some in your bullet.  Try half of a small container.  And hold on to it and shake it around for a few seconds.    See what it does.  

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi John,

I'm not completely convinced that your issue is over-hydration.   I've been making 100% rye breads for around 20 years now, and I consistently achieve 85% overall hydration...that is for both the Pumpernickel-style loaves with whole and cracked grains, and the breads using solely rye flour.   I have seen recipes around 100% hydration, but whenever I try to go higher than the 85% mark, I really struggle to bake the loaf out.   However, the wet patch in the unbaked dough will usually be high up in the loaf, not at the base like yours.   I know it is not that easy to calculate overall hydration, but I suspect your paste is not excessively hydrated.

I've not made the Danish Rye so I don't really feel able to comment too much in depth.   I do note your formula uses instant yeast at c.1.5%, and I'm thinking this should be wholly unneccesary.   Out of interest, my Pumpernickel formula uses both whole rye berries [which are soaked, then boiled], and rye chops [I use flakes as they are easier for me to obtain from regular suppliers].   I do appreciate this is a difficult loaf to bake.

All good wishes

Andy

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Andy.  Good to hear from you and thank you for your feedback/help.

I don't want to go against your suggestions but this is the reason I thought the hydration was too high.  The main reason being, I have read about 10 different recipes of this bread, seen many photos, and watched about 3-4 videos.  All of which have a dough that one can easily shape and form 'into a log.'  My dough could not be formed into anything.  It was pourable and literally like wet mortar cement. 

John

Dan001's picture
Dan001

I think your bread is on the money. It look like a classic case of overproofing( the center collapse).  once transfered to your pan, let it rise by 50% only and bake immediately. I make mine in Pullman pan so if it's slightly underproof, it wont explode on the top. As for the wet inside, those kind of bread are like cheese or a good wine, they need time to mature. Once it come out of the oven at 350 for 2 hours I check my internal temperature to make sure it is a 210. Once reached this temp, i un mold the bread and let it cool down on a rack for 1 hours, I then wrap it in a wet towel in a plastic bag overnight to keep a nice moist and soft crust. The next morning, I transfer my bread in a plastic bag and put it in the fridge for 3 days.... Yes 3 days. So this bread takes 5 days to make. If i try to slice it or eat it before the inside does remain wet and with a feeling of under baked. However after 3 days in the Fridge, this is heaven. Just slow down the process and be patient. This is really worth the effort and wait.

 

Here is my  variation of this receipe

     
      
  

PULLMANN PAN

 

 
    Percent         
  Sponge Overnight  
  Ingredients  
  Water 300600gr
   multi grain mix200400gr
  Flour 100200gr
  Starter 52.5125gr
    TOTAL1325gr
      
  Final Dough  
  Ingredients  
  Water 77500gr
  Flour 100650gr
   Salt 3.322gr
  Pumpkin Seeds31200gr
  Sunflower seeds15100gr
  2 tbs Malted barley   
  Sponge 2001325gr

Good luck and let me know if that helped

 

Dan

Mirko's picture
Mirko

Hi John,

next time add some salt from overal formula (about 50%) to the soaker and dont steam your oven at all or only for 2 min.

Long steaming time 10-15min will only kill your bread (this type of bread dont need long steam time).

Mirko

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thanks Mirko.  I will try this as well.  So many things to try!  Thanks for the as usual.  Prijatno.

John

Dan001's picture
Dan001

Ho forgot to mention in my last post, that this bread cannot be shaped in anything either.Your internal temperature is probably key here. Make sure to you a termometer and see what happen.

Dan

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Dan.

In fact, I did measure the internal temp. and it reached 210 degrees when I took it out.

John

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

but I think Mini and Andy are though.  I think you are over hydrated, like mini says, and 85% is about right as Andy says.  I scald (simmer) the berries for 10 minutes and then let them sit from 4-24 hours before using,  I then drain them and run a couple of paper towels though them while in the sieve to make sure that the excess water is at a minimum.  You can just soak the chops if you want but they too need to be well drained and wet paper towels run through them get rid of any excess water.  It doesn't make any difference how much water you used for the scald and soaker since you are only using the berry and chop part that isn't liquid.  Just make sure that you are at no more than 85% hydration when calculating the rye sour and dough flour and water.

Make sure the bread is baked to at least 205 F (210 F doesn't hurt) in the middle and wrap it in linen when it is cool and don't touch it for at least 32 - 40  hours.so the remaining hydration can even itself out in the dough and make the crust soft.  

You just have too much water in the dough. 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hey man.  Yeah, the crazy thing is I did check the internal temp and it reached 210.  You are the scalding expert for sure.  I also did keep them in fridge in paper towel after boiling to dry out.  It has now been 6 days and still wet.  I am almost positive now that it was over hydration.  MAYBE a little over proofed as well, but mostly the issue I think was hydration.  Especially for the fact that I didn't decrease any water from the original JH formula due to my boiling process.  I think what happened was I boiled the berries, then soaked them in the recipe amount of water.  The original forumla would have accounted for a lot of this water being soaked up into the rye chops, however, if already boiled, there's not much more place within these bloated berries that the water could go into.  Thus, too much water.

Thanks for the help :)

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

to bake.     This is not a Pullman pan.   I cover this loaf with the loaf pan next to it for the first half of the bake.   See how the loaf gets shaped after spooning in?  It was sprinkled with seeds and then rubbed shaped with a wet spatula. After it was baked it gained about 1/3 in volume from dough to bread.   

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Those are nice loaves Mini.  What type of bread was this?

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

cooled, wrapped in plastic at 3 am and stuck in the cold oven for the week-end trip to Patagonia, April 19th.  

I add nuts to the recipe as I please.  100% whole dark rye (14% protein) with 6.1% chia seeds at, get this: 104% hydration (but it looked and felt like 83%.)  Removed from oven with an inside oven temp reached 94°C.  Made this one without nuts or seeds inside, all sunflower seeds are on the outside (bottom, sides and top.)

Just posted at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/33328/minis-100-dark-rye-chia-recipe-love-104-hydration

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

OK, first off I want to thank everyone for adding in their thoughts and help.  I really didn't think I would have this much support.  This is great.

HOWEVER, I am now a little bit confused as each of you have given different reasons as to what could have gone wrong.  Maybe it is a little bit of everything above that contributed to the outcome.

I have made one conclusion to all this.  I need to find actual rye chops and follow the recipe word for word.  THEN and only then, if the bread turns out, I can rule out issues such as overproofing, too much/too little salt, underbaking, etc.  I will then play around with the hydration if I ever plan to boil the berries again. 

Thanks again to everyone for your contributions.  I will update this post in the future when I try this loaf again.

Happy baking everyone.

John

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

John, I don't think these are exactly rye chops, but I have been substituting them with reasonable success: Cracked rye from Bob's Red Mill

-Brad

Dan001's picture
Dan001

I think that it is a good idea to religiously follow a receipe to the letter. As a starting point, i invite you to try to follow to the letter the receipe that i gave you. It is a perfect bake time after time. You need a 16 inches pullman pan and you will be good to go. From there i guess you could make some variation to your liking. You also have the baker's percentage that you can scale it down if you want

Good luck

Dan

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

I wouldnt mind trying out your recipe Dan however is this a Vollkornbrot?  Multigrain mix.  Is that whole rye berries?  Also I will have to find myself a Pullman Pan.

I really would like a recipe that has some rye chops in it.  Do you have a tried and proven one that you like?

John

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi John,

I reckon it's to do with enzyme activity and you should particularly take note of Mirko's excellent advice.

85% is not over-hydrated

Best wishes

Andy

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Andy.  How did you get at 85% hydration?  Remember the formula I posted above does not list or account for the water used to boil the rye berries.  The berries soaked up a LOT of it. 

John

Dan001's picture
Dan001

Hey John

If you dont have a pullman pan you can use a standard 8 by 4 pan, put a cookie sheet on top with a   fireplace brick or wood stove brick would also do in it to keep the top in place. As for a proven receipe with rye chop, HERE it is. You can then play with the amount of Cracked rye you want in it. 20% for me is good, some would go as high as 40%... It's all about personal preferences. This should give you the results you are looking for.

if you still have problem, let me know and i would gladly go over the process with you in more details, but if you follow your procedure that you are already doing, you should be all good. The detmolder is a precise exercise of hydration and temperature. For optimal results you will need a proofer but without one, you will still get an amazing Rye bread

 

 

                                                 percent

Craked Rye soaked                     20

Soaker water for above               20

3 stage Detmolder Rye                97

Salt                                              2.25

Diastatic malt                              6

Dark Stout( Guiness)                  40

Rye Flour                                    80

Water                                         20

As Andy mentionned, it might be your enzyme activity. All my reciepe involving a fair amount of Rye, has  Diastatic malt barley in them for that reason.  Since i mill my own flour I can get my cracked rye coarser or finer, it's is something that you need to play with.

Keep me posted

 

Dan

 

 

 

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

the discussion in this thread gives me some ideas.

Andy, I think you are onto something with the Enzymes.

I checked my records. The breads I made with boiled grains all turned out well - but I boiled my grains for 3 to 4 hours.

Suepke mentions that it takes time to deactivate enzymes and recommends 2 hours of boiling.

John, maybe you could give it a go with a longer boiling time?

Below is one of several failed attempts of Black Bread from "Inside The Jewish Bakery" - similar to John's results.

I am not sure if the formula or the baking process have some problems (Stan assured me that they are OK). The idea of high enzyme activity as a source of these problems seems intriguing, and I'll think about it with respect to the Black Bread.



Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and so does John's (op) post.  I look at the bubbles and they seem irregular, broken and fallen by weight.  The wet layer a centimeter up from the bottom also screams overproofed.  

When one sees gas bubbles starting to rise, poping on the surface (pin holes) High time to dock the loaf and get it into the oven.  One can also cover the pan with a double layer of alufoil.   I do that a lot esp. when trying out different pans.  Often shaping it too for rising inside.  (Shape over an empty pan or over a cold towel stuffed pan.)  

John, did you dock your loaf before baking?  

(p.s. you do know that a "brat" is a sausage, right?)   :) 

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hm.

I'll try to fit in another bake of this over the weekend.

Thank you,

Juergen

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Lol...brat in English.  Although the bread does have a consistency of uncooked sausage meat.

Yes, I did dock the dough with a wooden skewer just as did with past successful Danish and Swedish Rye bakes.

I am started to get overwhelmed by all the possible factors.  Makes me wonder how I ever achieved a succefful bake with Danish Rye the very first time trying it!

Oops this was supposed to be a reply to Mini's message.

John