The Fresh Loaf

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80% Sourdough Rye from Hamelman's Bread-Detmolder Method

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isand66's picture
isand66

80% Sourdough Rye from Hamelman's Bread-Detmolder Method

After returning from the first ever TFL gathering in Lexington MA last weekend I wanted to use some the rye starter that Varda gave me to make a rye bread.  Dave Snyder posted his latest bake of the above bread on The Fresh Loaf this past week and pushed me over the edge to try it myself.  You can find the recipe at his original post here.

This recipe uses a three-step build process called the Detmolder  process which by using precise temperatures for each build is supposed to optimize the development of yeast growth, lactic acid and acetic acid production.

David had described his latest bake as having an almost sweet taste without that much sour flavor.  My bake to me seemed to have a much more sour flavor than intended.  I think I might have rushed the second build a bit which could have effected the final outcome.

In any case, the crumb came out about where I think it should for such a high percentage rye bread.  The crust ended up much more thick than I think it should.

This type of dough is docked instead of scored and you only use steam for the first 5 minutes of the bake.

Before Docking Dough
Docked Dough
I used my knife tool to dock the dough. Worked fine.

I will have to try this one again and see if I get the same result.

Submitted to Yeast Spotting.

Comments

BobS's picture
BobS

So many breads, so little time.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

2nd stage of the levain build is supposed to favor acetic acid production and the 3rd phase is supposed to favor lactic acid production.  No where in the process is any kind of sweetness involved.  This is the process I use to create as much sour as possible in any levian build.  If you refrigerate the levain after the 2 nd build for a day and then refrigerate the the 3rd build for 2 days you will, according to my experiments, have created the most sour your starter has in it no matter what kind it is. 

If you bulk retard the dough for 36 hours and then do a final proof at 88 F, the final bread will be as sour as it can be.  I wouldn't be too worried about not finding any sweetness in this bread since all you are doing is making acid :-)  Perhaps sucking on lemon would seem sweeter.

It is the bitterness of the whole rye and other whole grain breads that I don't like all that much.  I would usually put some molasses and barley malt syrup, possibly some honey,  in these breads which tends to hide the bitterness.  It is a personal preference but you might say this version tastes more sweet than Hamelman's even though it too is very sour.  Less bread addicted folks like the bread this way better too.

Your bread came out pretty nice Ian- well baked with an open crumb and my apprentice didn't chuckle one bit.  Who knew a steele could be used as a docking implement! It has to be wonderfully sour and about perfect for a pastrami or corned beef sandwich.  A schmear with smoked or grilled  salmon would be great too.

Nice baking and safe travels Ian.

isand66's picture
isand66

Thanks DA

I was going by the comments David made in his last post on this bread.  It does go well with a schmear!

look forward to reading about your next bake to keep me going while in China.

Ian

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

one of my favorite near white breads of David's the San Joaquin or the  Pugliese and DaPumperize it.  That should be interesting :-)  That will probably kill the sweetness in them!

isand66's picture
isand66

I look forward to reading about it next week.  I'm already missing not being able to bake for almost 2 weeks!

Regards,
Ian

varda's picture
varda

Ian,   I think the crumb came out just right for that bread.    Have you tasted?   What do you think?   -Varda

isand66's picture
isand66

Thanks Varda.

I waited about 35 hours before I cut into it....talk about torture!  The crumb was nice and moist, but the crust was a bit tougher than it should have been.  It was a bit more sour than I expected but was good especially with some cream cheese on it. I want to try your recipe when I get back from the rye you brought last weekend which was much stronger flavored than this one.

Regards,
Ian

varda's picture
varda

Ian,  At least for the 80% one I brought, the flavor entirely follows the sour flavor.    Which in that case is quite sour as it is fermented at room temp for a long time.    I don't have the temperature controls to do Detmolder method, and wonder if it's worth the laboratory approach.   But I guess I would only know that by a taste test of a properly made loaf following the procedure.   Your high percentage rye baking is certainly off to a good start.   Hope you have a great trip.  

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

well done Ian,

I would love to toast a slice and slather it in butter - cup of coffee - feet up - yep - now thats living.

John

isand66's picture
isand66

Thanks John.

This is a good hearty bread perfect for some european butter or some nice hearty cheese.

Regards,
Ian

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Sometimes, for scheduling reasons, I retard the full sour, and I do get a more sour product. But, I don't think that's what this bread is supposed to be.

Re. dbm's comments: The sweetness comes from the generation of free sugars by amylase. If the sour is over-fermented, these sugars may be used up, making the bread less sweet. If the rye sour is well-fermented, you really shouldn't get bitterness. In my limited experience with mollasas, it may introduce some bitterness.

David

isand66's picture
isand66

Thanks David.

The only thing I think I may have messed up on was phase 2 of the starter build.  I was using your original recipe post and it appears you had a typo.  You say the lower temperature is the shorter time period, but obviously it should be the opposite.  I knew this must have been a mistake but for some idiotic reason I didn't listen to myself and I should have let the starter build for another 8-9 hours probably.  I am not sure how much if at all this effected the final outcome but I will find out the next time I try this I guess.  Overall it came out pretty good, but with nothing to compare it to  myself I can only speculate on the flavor profile.  I did get a bit of a tough crust on this one which I think could be due to my oven temperature being off which I'm going to test out shortly when my wife is baking me my favorite chocolate chip cookies to bring on my trip to China.

Thanks again for your comments and help.

Ian

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Yikes! It was a typo. Thanks for catching it. It's corrected now.

David

isand66's picture
isand66

No problem...  the sad thing is that I read the recipe in the book and still didn't get it until the next day...

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Lovely Dough , Ian.. not a sign of crack on it.. seamless! Could be slightly underproofed?

The bread turned out great, though i may suggest that you sliced it really thin. I have tried this recipe before, and it is one of those recipes that must be religiously followed, otherwise, it won't be a detmolder no more.

It is a an excellent rye bread, and yours is a good example of it no matter how sour it tuned out.

Have a safe trip to China my friend.

isand66's picture
isand66

Thank you Khalid for your comments.  I went by the timing suggested on when to finally bake and I think the dough felt like it was ready, but it's possible it could have been slightly underproofed.  I will try this one again when I get back and see if I get similar or better results.  Just had some for breakfast and it certainly fill you up!

Look forward to reading some of your posts while I'm traveling to keep me motivated :).

Regards,
Ian

evonlim's picture
evonlim

hello, hello n hello Ian,

what did i missed out!! been too busy to blog. sorry for missing out.

well, this is new information to me. three step build up n docked method.. 

this is a serious bread. too amateur to comment.

i know one thing for sure, bread baked with heart always taste great!!

evon

isand66's picture
isand66

Thank you Evon.

Appreciate your kind words.

This is not a simple bread, but it's not that hard either if you follow directions and pay attention.

It certainly opens up new avenues of bread making to explore which I look forward to trying in the future.

Regards,
Ian

Alpana's picture
Alpana

Wow! This is the first time I have seen a docked bread. Later I checked David's original post from the link you posted. Both the breads look great. Is there a reason why this bread is docked and not others? I would like to try docking on some other bread as I doubt I can manage temperature for this bread. I will most probably end up with a bread that is too sour for our taste.

Enjoy your China trip, Ian. 

 Alpana

isand66's picture
isand66

Thank you Alpana for your kind words.

I believe the bread is docked due to the high perentage of rye flour would cause the dough to tear if trying to score it.  I think David may have a more elaborate answer on his orginal post.

Regards,
Ian

bakingbadly's picture
bakingbadly

I'm not too familiar with the detmolder method but it has me intrigued. I've heard great things about it, building up the "full sour", but I think it may be difficult for me to execute. Nonetheless, your loaf has inspired me find more info on it.

Thanks for posting and have a safe trip to China,

Zita

isand66's picture
isand66

Thank you Zita.  I made it to Hong Kong last night although with little sleep due to a demon child running and shrieking for 10 hours straight!  

i hope you can try this one day.   I have a lot of experimenting to do with this myself and want to try some different things at some point soon.

Regards

Ian