The Fresh Loaf

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Hang over!

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handymanchef's picture
handymanchef

Hang over!

Problems with a hang over!

I have recently made what I think is my best tasting bread to date, but I have a slight problem with a 'hang over'.  I was hoping to insert an image of the finished loaf to show you, but I can't find a way at the moment.

However, if you go to my blog at http://handymanchef.wordpress.com and scroll to the bottom of my blog, you will see exactly what I am talking about.

In the meantime, let me try and explain.  I placed the dough into the bread tin, covered and left it to prove, which it did really well, in fact, the dough grew so much that it 'spilled over' the sides of the tin.  Consequently, when I baked the bread, I ended up with two great big 'hang overs' or overhands on the sides of the loaf.

My question is, can anybody tell me why this happens and how to rectify it.  Of course it doesn't change the flavour of the bread but it changes the look of the bread.

Any help or advice to a novice baker would be much appreciated.  Many thanks.

handymanchef

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 

 

Looks like the pan is too small for the amount of dough.  And maybe a darker loaf pan might help set the side crust & darken the sides of the loaf giving more upward support.  And perhaps a tad overproofed so get the loaf into the oven sooner.   

handymanchef's picture
handymanchef

Many thanks for your speedy reply.

What do you mean re 'a darker loaf pan'?

The pans I use are the ones from Lakeland. This is the link http://www.lakeland.co.uk/12647/Bakingenius-2lb-Loaf-Tin  Can you recommend really good bread tins that I can get in Europe?

As you may be able to tell, I am quite new experimenting with making breads, although I have made a simple type of bread for some time.  What difference does the colour of the tin make?  I have always suffered with the sides of my bread being under-cooked.

Any tips are most welcome.

handymanchef

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

(I thought maybe you had a reflective shiny one...  >clear< )    nice pans by the way!

That might mean your oven is cooler than what it says it is or you may have to lower the shelf you bake on.  Paul has some good points...

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

but have you checked your oven recently? The coloring of the loaf makes me wonder whether more heat is being produced by a top element than by a bottom element. Of course, if you have a gas oven that only heats from the bottom, perhaps its as simple as moving the rack down one or two levels for the next bake.

Mini's observation about over-proofing seems apt. Note how the top of the loaf is more concave than convex. That suggests that the loaf settled while baking. The most common cause for that symptom is over-proofing. The cure is to put the dough in the oven sooner.

Paul

pepperhead212's picture
pepperhead212

You also might try a slightly stiffer dough, as is wouldn't droop as soon as it got past the sides of the pan.

Dave

handymanchef's picture
handymanchef

Thanks, I will tighten my dough up a bit.

yozzause's picture
yozzause

Hi Handyman chef

The easiest thing and least expensive thing to try is less dough in your existing pan especially if you are happy with the dough formula, the chunk that you leave out and i'd say between a third and half can be formed into a small boule or baton shape  and placed on a tray, it will also give you the opportunity of baking the same dough  20 to 30 minutes apart to compare the difference in the extra proof time. and if you really have the time and want to compare make the dough into 3 similar boules and bake one after the other and compare,  if you can take pictures all the better and compare the pictures after. you can definately learn from mistakes but you will be gaining experience too.  you can also cut them open and compare the effects on the internal structure also.

I might add my hangovers usually occur after copious amounts of alcohol and seem to be having a similar effect on my waistline   

Kind regards yozza

handymanchef's picture
handymanchef

Thanks EVERYBODY for such interesting replies.

I did like the last comment from yozza re his own 'hangovers' - it made me laugh. Thankfully those days don't exist for me, in 2008 I had to have an emergency Liver Transplant (nothing to do with drinking by the way) so of course I am not allowed to drink any more.

My comments after the wonderful replies I have had:- It has occured to me that I have been making a few 'novice' errors.  1. I have not been consistent with whereabouts in the oven I put my breads to bake.  2. I now make different breads at the same time e.g sourdoughs, sponge method and non sponge - they sometimes rise in a different way and at lesser or greater heights - therefore because I am very new to making different types of bread at the same time, I am still not sure how much dough to put in my bread tins. For example, this particular bread was made from my sponge method starter and really rose out of the pan.  Another of my breads made at the same time was made from my sour dough starter and didn't rise anywhere near as much, even though both doughs weighed the same when they went into the pans.  3. I have been putting one pan near the bottom of the oven and one pan nearer the middle to utilise the whole of the oven - after 15 or so minutes I have changed them over, middle to bottom, bottom to middle.

I think all of these 'mistakes', if I can call them that - I would rather call them 'learning experiences' - have probably added to the results I have been getting.

I have just bought an oven thermometer so I can check properly the temperature of the oven (electric oven). The other thing that has troubled me right from when I started making breads in this particular oven some months ago, is that the sides of the breads always come out of the pans really anaemic and don't seem as if they are cooked properly.  Any ideas anyone?

Thanks once again to all.  Keep the replies coming.  I need to learn.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Open the empty oven and put your empty bread pan on the rack, now line up the top of the bread pan to dead middle, half way up and half way down.  Start from this rack position when there is no baking stone.  When there are too many loaf pans in the oven the sides can turn out pale also when there isn't enough heat.  Now with the oven open watch the bottom coil, if no coil is seen, place your hand on the bottom of the oven (check to make sure there isn't an extra baking sheet resting there blocking the heat, remove it if stored there.)  Turn the dial to upper/lower heat, turn the dial for temp and turn on the oven.  Is the bottom getting warm?  Turn the oven heat source settings until the bottom coil heats up.  If it doesn't.  Then you more than likely need a new bottom coil or your oven doesn't have one using the fan to heat the oven.  Find out.   :)  

handymanchef's picture
handymanchef

Many thanks Mini Oven,

GREAT advice! I will follow your instructions to the letter and let you know what I find out.

My oven has a control so I can have Top heat, Bottom heat - OR BOTH - which, I know is what I need for bread. So your advice should be easy enough to follow.

It may be a week or so before I am baking again. BUT, I will do what you say tomorrow and let you know.

Happy Easter (if you celebrate it) and have a great weekend.

Bye for now handymanchef

handymanchef's picture
handymanchef

Hello again Mini Oven and others

OK I am back again with my results.  Firstly, I would like to say:-  I have been told that producing some steam as the breads go in the oven is a good thing to do, it helps to form a crust and it is supposed to improve the 'oven spring'.  I used to just throw some water into the bottom of the oven and shut the door immediately but then it dawned on me that water and electricity don't mix!  So lately, I have been placing a flat shallow tray at the bottom of the oven and putting my water into the tray.  The tray is just about the same size as my oven bottom and it occurred to me, because I never take the tray out of the bottom of the oven, this is probably causing me some very uneven heating.  In future, I will rectify this.

So to my results.  Following your advice Mini Oven, I have put one of my normal baking pans on a shelf, making sure that the TOP of the pan is equi-distant from the top and bottom of the oven.  As a matter of fact, this puts the shelf on the lowest setting possible without it being flat on the bottom of the oven.

Regarding the heating of the oven, I turned my oven setting to top and bottom heat, turned some heat on (150C) closed the door and waited for literally 1 or 2 minutes.  In our oven, the lower element is covered, so I then carefully felt the bottom of the oven.  It was indeed getting hot.  I could feel quite clearly the hotter areas of the bottom of the oven where the element was and, I guess, after 10 to 20 minutes, the whole of the bottom of the oven would be at a reasonably constant temperature. (At least I hope it would!)

This afternoon, I will be using the oven for Sunday roast and some baking, so I will use my new oven thermometer to check what the temperatures are like in different places in the oven.

If you can give me any further help, I would be most grateful.

Thank you and have a great weekend.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

your light sides problem and you could try turning your pans at an angle to the oven sides.   I'm willing to bet that you tend to  stick the bread tins straight into the oven parallel to the walls.   See if there is enough room in the oven to place the first pan at an angle to one back corner and place the second pan parallel to it ⎮ ⁄ ⁄  ⁄ ⁄ ⎮ but closer to the opposite front corner.  This gives larger spaces on the sides of the pan where heat can circulate.  Make sure the pans are not too close to each other so heat flows between them nicely.  The ends and the corners of the pans are close to the oven walls but not touching.  Then when rotating the bake move the inside sides to the outside.  

With my last bake I tried something new... I put a steam pan on the top rack (very close using the oven's baking sheet) with two cups of cold water and let the water heat with the pre-heat.  The oven was good and steamy when my loaves went into the oven.  (stand back when you open it)  I let the steam fall down on my loaves for the "spring."  After which I removed the now empty steam pan and set it aside to cool and rotated the loaves to brown in the oven, now getting the full benefit of the upper heat coil.

handymanchef's picture
handymanchef

I think I have cracked it!

After following everybody's advice, I have tightened up the dough a bit, kneaded the mix a bit more and given it its initial rise.  Then knocked it back and shaped the dough, this time I actually weighed the dough before setting it into the tins. The 2 breads in the picture below were weighed out at 500 g each.  I then set it into my tins and let it prove - but not for too long.

I then made sure that the oven was at the correct temperature using my new oven thermometer and cooked the breads at as much of a diagonal to the oven as size would allow. I did use the fan for this bake and found I got a much more even bake.

See image below

The sides are nice and brown and all in all I think I have produced a much better loaf. The taste is good, the crust is nice and crispy and the texture is springy without being moist, and it certainly isn't dry.

Thanks everybody once again.  Happy baking!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

That does change things a little bit...    check this out:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/32890/oven-spring-and-fan-assisted-ovens

Your dough is a bit heavier so don't expect the same amount of spring, the point is to turn off the fan during the initial springing time to prevent the crust from setting too soon.  Food for thought.  :)

handymanchef's picture
handymanchef

Once again - MANY thanks for the adivice.  These kind of things one finds out from other great bakers.

I will remeber your advice next time I bake.  I have NEVER used the fan before yesterday!  But I think it does make a difference in the bake.  Apart from a more even bake is there any other reasons to using the fan?  And should I NOT really use it?

 

Thanks again

me

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I found out that with one oven that had choices of upper, lower, and fan etc., that if I put it on lower heat (like for a steam tray) and fan, it automatically closed the vents and I had a steam oven! That was an "AHA!" moment. (never hurts to read the manual once a year, Lol!)

LisaE's picture
LisaE

AHA!

handymanchef's picture
handymanchef

Point taken Mini Oven - but not all ovens are the same.

I couldn't do that with mine!

But, I am a lot happier with my last bake.

Thanks for the help along the way.