The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

SD YW multi-grain Bagels

  • Pin It
dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

SD YW multi-grain Bagels

The quest for the New Your bagel continues.   This time we lowered the hydration 2% to 56%, used more barley malt, used 27% whole grains (the bulk of which was whole wheat in the dough flour to try to mimic first clear flour) and we used AP with VWG since we didn’t have any bread flour.

  

We also changed the process around a little bit too.  We built a full strength SD starter out of whole grains, stiffened it up to 65% and then let it sit in the fridge for 3 days to get sour.  Then we built a levain from that using 15 g of seed and whole grain spelt, rye and WW.  We made the yeast waster levain separately and replaced the whole spelt with AP flour.

 

Once the two levains had doubled, the SD levain was placed into the bottom of the container and the YW levain was put on top of that and they were placed in the fridge together for 2 days.

The levains were removed from the fridge to warm up.  While they warming we autolysed the rest of the ingredients, including; the salt, malts and VWG for 2 hours after having kneaded them together.  Dough like this would kill the KA so hand kneading is always the wiser choice but a hard slog.

After the levains hit the autolyse it took a while to work then in the hard dough by squeezing it through the fingers.  Then we kneaded the dough until it was tough but silky smooth.  After a 1 hour rest we shaped the bagels around the knuckles at 135 g each and put them on semolina dusted parchment where they rested for 1hour before gong into the fridge for a 32 hour retard.

  

Sorry, cut into one for a taste while they were still quite warm.

After coming out of the fridge, we let the bagels proof on the counter for 4 hours.  The bagels doubled over that time and then we refrigerated them again for 1 ½ hours to stiffen them up.  Next time we will put them back in the fridge after 3 hours and let them cool for 2.  The bagels were gently boiled for 30 seconds each side, in water that had barley malt and baking soda in it, just to shock them awake. 

 

Bagel hole?  Made a little dough ball for floating to see if the bagels were ready to boil and that they too would float!

They were flipped on a kitchen towel to get rid of the excess water and then dunked into the seed mixture.  The 3 mixes this time were white, brown and black poppy, white and black sesame and a multi-seed and salt one comprised of the previous seeds plus oregano and basil seeds, black and brown caraway seeds, nigella seeds and kosher salt.  We made twice as many of the combo salt ones since they are our favorite.

 

Looks and cuts better when fully cooled,

The steam was supplied by 1 of Sylvia’s steaming pans and a 12” skillet with lava rocks and we used both stones to accommodate the 13 bagels and 1 small roll.   They baked with steam at 450 F for 8 minutes and then steam was removed and they baked for another 8 minutes at 425 F convection until they were deemed done and nicely browned.

Beautiful skies don't have to be sunsets or sunrises.  The sunset was great too!

After deflating in the boil they managed to puff themselves back up nicely in the steam.  These are getting very close to NY SD Bagels and would be way sourer without the YW in the mix to tone it down.  The blistered crust is crispy, the crumb chewy but the taste is near spot on too.  Even my wife is having one for breakfast today instead of Einstein’s.  Now that takes some doing.  We like this batch very much but will make some changes next time as we always do still searching for the perfect bagel that doesn’t exist.

I never eat two bagels at once but did when they came out of the oven yesterday - yummy!  Cream cheese schmear and buttered with minneola marmalade.

Formula

SD Starter

Build 1

%

SD Desem & Rye Sour

15

1.34%

Spelt

18

1.80%

Whole Wheat

30

3.00%

Dark Rye

30

3.00%

Water

60

6.00%

Total Starter

153

12.90%

 

 

 

YW Starter

Build 1

%

Yeast Water

58

5.80%

AP

18

1.80%

WW

18

1.80%

Dark Rye

18

1.80%

Total

112

11.20%

 

 

 

Starters

 

%

Flour

115.5

11.55%

Water

125.5

12.55%

Hydration

108.66%

 

 

 

 

Levain % of Total

13.22%

 

 

 

 

Dough Flour

 

%

Whole Wheat

200

20.00%

AP

800

80.00%

Dough Flour

1,000

100.00%

 

 

 

Salt

18

1.80%

Water

500

50.00%

Dough Hydration

50.00%

 

 

 

 

Total Flour

1,115.5

 

Water

625.5

 

T. Dough Hydration

56.07%

 

Whole Grain %

27.57%

 

 

 

 

Hydration w/ Adds

56.27%

 

Total Weight

1,823

 

 

 

 

Add - Ins

 

%

Red Rye Malt

5

0.50%

White Rye Malt

5

0.50%

VW Gluten

18

1.80%

Barley Malt

36

3.60%

Total

64

6.40%

 

Comments

gmagmabaking2's picture
gmagmabaking2

All those seeds and grains.. those look really, really good... and the crumb shots and blisters... very nice indeed. I like my bagels just like that with a schmear of cream cheese, warm and chewy.... Great job! I am going to have to make some bagels now, I can see that! 

Happy Baking. 

Diane

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

about making bagels and then eating them still warm out of the oven.  One of the many pleasures of life. Glad you liked then Dianne - and get some boiling going on :-)

isand66's picture
isand66

I love them!  What a great experiment and results.  I now must make some bagels in the near future.  Wish I could tase one of yours now.

Curious to know what you would change on these.

You should break down and order some Clear flour from KAF or NY Bakers which ships out of California.  I don't think your approximation is really the same thing but I'm sure it still tastes great.

Great baking DA.

Ian

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

for first clear is way off but i have to get  some whole grain in there somewhere.  hese are pretty good bagels but pretty far off the mark in many ways - like YW in the mix.

The change I would make would depend on what kind of bagels we were making.   For authentic , we would use SD old dough for the leaven,  lye for the boiling water,  first clear for all the flour including the starter and levain that made the old dough dropping the VWG, would drop the powdered malts and probably cut down the barley malt syrup to 25 g and then adjusting the water to get to 55 -57 % hydration or so.  Would also bake in 2 batches, instead of one, for the 13 bagels and one bagel hole adn keep the other stone on top to help pop them under steam.

Would preheat to 500 F and then bake at 475 F for the first 4 minutes under heavy steam then turn the oven down to 450 F for the next 4 minutes.  No pro baker would retard like this bake.  If not using old sourdough they would just build regular starter and levains and then retard for 18 hours.  We final proofed on the counter for 4 hours before refrigerating them again to get them cold.  I wanted to get them 90% but they got to 95% so the final proof should ahve been 3- 3 1/2  hours and the last retard after final proof I would make 2 hours instead of 1 1/2 hours.  It is the cold retard and super.duper steam that makes the crispy and blistered crust.  A pan in the bottom with water in it won't work.

If I was going for SD taste, I would use whole multi grains (rye, spelt and WW) in the starter and levain and use the clear for the dough flours trying to get 12 -15% of the flours to be whole grains.  I would as lo keep the dry malts and cut back the barley malt syrup to 28 g keeping the hydration to 55-57%.

Some day we make bagels in the MagnaWare, Magnalite Turkey Roaster with some extra water under the trivet and get the most extreme,  blistered crispy crust of all time.

Glad you liked the bagels Ian.

Happy bagel baking!

varda's picture
varda

bagels and write-up and I'm guessing those guys are packed with flavor.    My thought on first clear, is that if you mill whole wheat and then sift out most of the bran, and then sift through a very fine sifter, what you have left is close enough to first clear.    I could be wrong about that though.  -Varda

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

First clear is supposed to be everything between the white patent flour and the bran - the outermost portion of the endosperm. First clear is just another reason to get a mill right?

These are tasty bagels. - but the next batch will be better - hopefully!  We make them different every time just to see what we like and what works.  Bagels are the perfect bread to experiment on.  Lots variable and processes to mess around with.  Perfect for retirees who bake.  Next time we go more authentic.

Glad you like them Varda.

Alpana's picture
Alpana

I am not a big fan of bagels, but these made me sit up and look twice. And it is not just the toppings that engaged me! The crust looks as fantastic as the skies. 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

toasted 100% whole meal with 50% rye for my breakfast schmear but bagels are just fun to make and  so versatile.   The crispy blistered crust is all in the cold retard  and super, duper steaming.

We liked this particular sky too.   Bummed out we couldn't see the comet after sunset last night though - even with binoculars.

happy baking Alpana

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

After seeing these beauties, I really need to work some bagels into the list of things to bake.

Paul

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Bagels and English muffins in the freezer but was out of both.  I like making both because they are different than making bread.   Still, they don't get made as often as they deserve for some reason.  Glad you liked them Paul - it's time for you to get some water boiling :-)  It's all in the steam and retard when it comes to bagels.

Happy baking Paul 

Mebake's picture
Mebake

Those are one of the recipes, that are just too fantastic to be convenient, DA! lovely blistered crust, and a nice crumb to boot!!

If i had all the time to build such a complex SD i probably wouldn't, but that's just me. So, the YW tones down excessive sourness?! i wonder what is the science behind that.

Anyway, beautiful blistered cust, and a lovely healthy bagels.. that's what matters in the end.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

bagels don't have yeast water in them but it does open and moisten the crumb of heavy breads  Few retard the starters and levains  and few retard their dough after shaping for 32 hours, but if you leave out the YW, that is the way to get sour.  My wife won't eat sour bagels sio the YW cuts the significant sour these bagels would have down to a Tartine, milder, hardly any sour taste. 

You never get sour with YW but is always tames down the sour when the two are mixed in bread .  I too would love to see the science behind it but will likely have to do it myself and I try to stay as far away from labs..... I mean laboratories, as I can :-)  Possibly, I can talk my apprentice will take this experiment up but she doesn't even like the smell of the Vet's office much less a lab.  The science of SD cultures  alone, although growing, is still pretty sparse but the science of YW and combo starters is non existent from my exploring for it.  My guess it that the YW takes over the culture if built together and take over the dough to great degree if levains are built separately but used together in the dough.  Other wise there would be more sour than there is.

I pretty much took the standard 24 -30  hour, or less if using commercial yeast,  SD bagel process from levain to bake and stretched it out to the max just to see what would happen.  Nothing bad resulted but the sour could have possibly been too much, if there is such a thing,  without the YW since this process was designed originally to pull out the sour in SD - without a high temp final proof which would have even been better for the sour.  It is fun to experiment with bread to see what happens.

Glad you liked the bagels Khalid and Happy Baking!

bakingbadly's picture
bakingbadly

This post has me excited! I've been wanting to bake bagels for... who knows how long? At least several months. (It's been many years since I last had a bagel with cream cheese.) Fortunately, an aquaintance of mine will be moving into town and he'll be bringing a few bags of vital wheat gluten, all just for me! I won't have the necessary ingredients to bake certain types of bagels, but I'll certainly do my best with what I have.

Thanks for the wonderful and hunger-inducing post, DA. :)

Toad.de.b's picture
Toad.de.b

Very nice looking bagels, dab.  Look like they've got the 'soul' of genuine NYC items.   Bring on the lox.  After some warnings (from Khalid was it?) I was hoping these wouldn't end up as chew/fetch toys for your apprentice.  Decidedly not.

I think we have to add YW Master to your growing train of honorifics.  Nobody's finessing that angle the way you are here.  Inspires me to get back to dabbling with YW again.  As for how it manages to tone down SD sourness (Khalid's question) -- I can attest to it and can only hypothesize that, (1) YW bugs metabolize away -- or otherwise neutralize -- secreted acids from SD hetero LABs, or (2) YW yeasts just out-compete SD hetero LABs who don't proliferate enough to secrete those acids to the final concentrations we're accustomed to.  Mechanism of such competition...?...gobbling up something SD heteros need/like?   It's a complex world in there -- plenty of other explanations I'm sure.

Nice baking!

Tom