The Fresh Loaf

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Old Dough VS Levain Multigrain SD With Bulgar and Flax Seed Scald

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dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Old Dough VS Levain Multigrain SD With Bulgar and Flax Seed Scald

After seeing David's  post earlier this week  about his experiment with using old dough vs a levain to make bread here "Old Dough" vs. Natural Levain ....... my apprentice just knew she hat to put her 4 cents in and replicate the experiment to see if we came out with would match David's bake.  Plus it was going to be fun because we haven’t used old dough to make bread for a very long time and had forgotten how good a no fuss job it could do.

  

Old dough is the way commercial bakers, as opposed to home bakers that baked smaller quantities and used levain, made all of their breads before 1870 or so when the Fleischmann brothers perfected their first commercial yeasts.

  

We didn’t have any old dough after bulk ferment to use so we decided to make a 125 g old dough from scratch.  We first did a formula that we would use for the levain dough and then scaled everything back from the larger dough weight to the little, what would become, old dough.  Spreadsheets really helped in this regard. 

  

Once we had everything together using the exact same ingredients that would be in the levain bread, we developed the little dough ball just like we would the larger one later.  We did an autolyse of 3 hours, added the tiny whole grain starter, salt, other flours and water and did 3 finger one hand tied behind the back French slap and folds until the gluten was well developed and the dough satin smooth.

  

After a 15 minute rest we did (3) S & F’s on 15 minute intervals and then let it ferment on the counter for 1 hour before refrigerating for 12 hours where it rose very well by doubling.  The next morning, while the old dough and the 125 g of the same levain were coming up to room temperature, we autolysed the dough with the salt, flour and water for the levain bread exactly as we had done the little old dough the previous day. 

  

Then before the levain went in we cut off half the autolyse for the old dough.  After that each dough was treated the same, together at the same times, yet separate .  The same - yet separate would make a good book title for a story about twins separated at birth.  Back to baking.

 

After the 10 minutes of French Slap and folds and the 15 minutes rest, the (3) sets of French slap and folds were done between  15 minute rest increments.  The Janet inspired bulgar and flax seed scalded mash was incorporated on the 2nd fold and fully distributed by the 3rd fold.

 

Each dough was allowed to ferment on the counter for an hour before being bulk retarded in a 38 F fridge for 18 hours.  After removing them from the cold, the dough balls had doubled in the fridge, they were allowed to come to room temperature for 1 ½ hours on a heating pad set to low.  Each was then formed into a boule and placed in like sized baskets even though one was more of an oval shape.

  

The baskets were placed in a nearly new trash can liner and placed back on the heating pad for a 78 F proofing.  After 2 hours, Old Betsy was fired up to 450 F with two DO inside, one a CI Martha Stewart and one was the Magnalite MagnaWare Turkey roaster.  Since the turkey roaster has a trivet insert that allows extra water to be put in for steam, we used the bottom of our spring form pan to raise up the bread off the bottom so extra water could be placed in it too.

  

Once the baking temperature was reached we un-molded each from the basket, slashed them and placed them into the hot DO’s with a parchment sling.  These smallish 525 g breads were baked 18 minutes with steam then the lids were removed and the temperature turned down to 425 F, convection this time.

  

The bread was baked another 5 minutes before being removed from the DO’s and rotated 180 degrees on the stone now.  The darker bread was done in 5 more minutes at 205 F on the inside and it was removed to a cooling rack,  The lighter colored bread was baked another 3 minutes before it too hit 205 F and we left this one on the stone with the oven off and door ajar for 5 minutes.

The darker colored boule spread more the lighter oval one.  The lighter oval rose and sprang higher and had a slightly softer and less open crumb but they were very close crumb wise.  The darker bread had more and bigger blisters.  The one in the WagnerWare turkey roaster was the lighter bread and we do not know why because nothing has been able to put crust on bread better than it does – except this time.

 

There is no question that one had a better more complex and deeper sour flavor just like David's bake and it was the one that used old dough too!  The difference in taste was definitely there and easy to decipher.   I’m would be using  this old dough technique  on bread from now on…… except that I forgot to hold back from this bake - darn…..typical the apprentice didn’t bark out a word of warning either!

So which one is old dough?  It’s the one that tastes the best and they both are great breads - some of the best we have made to date.   Let’s see who can guess the taste winner by looking.

Formula

Old Dough VS Levain Multigrain SD With Bulgar and Flax Seed Scald

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Starter

Build 1

Build 2

Total

%

SD Starter

25

0

25

9.26%

Spelt

8

9

17

8.19%

WW

8

8

16

7.71%

Rye

8

9

17

8.19%

Water

25

25

50

24.10%

Total Starter

74

51

125

60.24%

 

 

 

 

 

Starter

 

 

 

 

Hydration

100.00%

 

 

 

Levain % of Total

23.63%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dough Flour

 

%

 

 

Dark Rye

12.5

6.02%

 

 

Whole Wheat

12.5

6.02%

 

 

Potatoe Flakes

10

4.82%

 

 

Spelt

12.5

6.02%

 

 

Oatmeal

10

4.82%

 

 

AP

150

72.29%

 

 

Dough Flour

207.5

100.00%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Salt

4

1.93%

 

 

Water

155

74.70%

 

 

Dough Hydration

74.70%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Total Flour

237

 

 

 

Total Water

217.5

 

 

 

T. Dough Hydration

91.77%

 

 

 

Whole Grain %

41.35%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hydration w/ Adds

76.99%

 

 

 

Total Weight

529

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Add - Ins

 

%

 

 

Red Rye Malt

1.25

0.60%

 

 

White Rye Malt

1.25

0.60%

 

 

Toadies

2.5

1.20%

 

 

VW Gluten

7.5

3.61%

 

 

Total

12.5

6.02%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Scald

 

%

 

 

Flax Seed

12

5.78%

 

 

Bulgar

13

6.27%

 

 

Total Scald

25

12.05%

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comments

isand66's picture
isand66

Wow those both look great.  Strange about why one is darker than the other. Yet another technique to try.  I would say the one with the open crumb is the old dough version.  

Question for you regarding the scald technique.  I assume you are using boiling water right?  How long do you let the scald sit?

Fine bake DA!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

scald.  I had bought some golden flax seeds I wanted to use and put them in with the bulgar and water, brought it to a boil, then turned it down to a simmer for 3 minutes and made a Janet gruel out of it.  Then off the heat and cover with plastic wrap until it cools.  This one was going to soak overnight so I put it in the fridge when it cooled.  When I got it out in the morning with the old dough and levain to warm up I took a whiff of it and it smelled really strange in and odd and sickening sort of way.  

I had picked up some aselio seeds in the Indian aisle of the Chineese grocery store to try out in some bread one day  - and they look just like golden flax seeds - I mean exactly.

Well that is what I put in the scald.  So I was out of time adn jsut microwaved some bulgar and real non golden fax seeds until it boiled over, let it sit for and hour and did it again and let it sit foe another our.   Just perfect in 3 nhours once it cooled down,

Sometimes I soak what ever is in the mix overnight and then bring it to boil and  simmer it for a few minutes in teh morning.  All work just as well as the other.  I'm glad I found out about the 3 hour microwave method today though.

I don't get the darker either.  So you think it is the light one that sprang more and had a slightly more open crumb wars the bread with the old dough.  One vote for pale crust !

I have to tell you i was shocked when I tasted the two.  I ate a piece of  the levain bread first and it was just fantastic.  I thought there was no way the old dough could touch it but it was the other way around.  Old dough was better and it was noticeable when doing a straight up taste test side by side.   I could eat either bread every day.

isand66's picture
isand66

Just pulled my lastest multigrain with soaker bread out of the oven about an hour ago.  I think you will like this one.  It's right up your alley and came out as dark brown as any loaf I've baked.  Have to wait a little longer to cut into it and work on a post.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

I'm sure it will be a good tasting one if it is boldly baked !  Will look forward to your post.  !00% whole grain pumpernickel with altus, soaker and aromatic seeds for my next one - an altus taste test - with and without.

isand66's picture
isand66

It came out excellent.  You will like this one.  Curious about your Altus experiment as I would like to see if it really makes a difference or not.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

We will get you doing sprouts before you know it :-)  Scalds are gateway drugs to sprouts!

isand66's picture
isand66

It's on my list.  Todays my B-day so maybe it's time to start sprouting to feel young again!  Post is up when you get a chance to review.

Toad.de.b's picture
Toad.de.b

Those are two of the prettiest loaves outa AZ in while, dab.  Bet they taste great.  

Old dough -- sounds like (un)spent fuel to me:-). I think I smell a trend. 

Nice baking!

Tom

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Old Spent Toady Sourdough Multi-grain Loaf :-)  It is a good trend too -but it does smell a little bit.  Nothing like spent Toadies in my book.  Love the taste of this bread. 

Happy baking Tom

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hi dabrownman,
Both breads look really nice - and the plating is impressive, bright and colorful, just like that gorgeous picture of the sky!
:^) breadsong

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

two breads very much.  They made for a great baloney sandwich to accompany our usual fresh; fruits, veggies and cheeses we lunch on every day.  Just looking at the colorful plate for lunch, followed by nice sunset just puts  a smile on my face every day.  Thanks for your comments.

Do you want to make a guess as to which bread, light or dark ,was the old dough?

Happy baking

bakingbadly's picture
bakingbadly

Oh my... Looks like I have to try the old dough method. Either way, those loaves look delicious. (Though, odd that one is darker than the other. Is the darker one with the levain?)

Thanks for another insightful post, DA. :)

Zita

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

This one turned out to confirm David's notion that old dough is more than a dough conditioner but an important flavor enhancer for fresh bake bread.  You would like this bread Zita.

Today, we are doing a strange pumpernickel bake. lone ;low and slow,  that is 50% whole rye and 50% whole spelt with rye and spelt altus, soaker and aromatic seeds to test for altus and see if it provides a flavor boost.

Your vote that the darker bake is the levain bread - so you agree with Ian.  No votes the other way so far 2-0

Happy baking

Mebake's picture
Mebake

I like'em both, DA!

What do you mean by 3 finger one hand tied up Slap and fold? :)

So, old dough is superior in flavor? Should be, considering the acid buildup, but i prefer milder tang.

Very nice breads, DA. I adore the way your bread crust looks, always nicely browned, and clean. You have excellent steaming as far as i'am concerned.

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

they don't call them French slap and folds for nothing Khalid :-)

Glad you like the crusts.  The DO puts clean crusts on bread like no other method I have used.  I'm doing an altus test today on a 100% whole grain pumpernickel that is half rye and half spelt, to see if altus effects the taste too.  Nothing like discovering things first had when it comes to bread as tests just mean more bread and baking.  You would like the 100% whole grains!

Do you want  to take a guess as to which bread had the old dough in it? 

Happy baking Khalid

Mebake's picture
Mebake

The one to the left, with the T-rex score? It appears darker due to all the sugars released from the old dough.

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

You are the one vote on the left and there are two votes for the right.  You narrowed the gap by 50% :-)

varda's picture
varda

Very nice and interesting too.  -Varda

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Varda.  It sure is tasty.

Guessing is free and pretty easy too:-)

I'm running an altus test now and will see how it effects 100% whole grain pumpernickel that is 50% each Rye and Spelt.  Hopefully, half of a single loaf will get altus somehow and the half won't,  if we can figure out how to do that before tomorrow.  That will be an interesting experiment too.

Happy baking Varda.

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Mr. D,

These look really nice!  I love the color on the crust and how they bloomed.  Really pretty....as is the sunset photo.  Nothing like that around here this time of year.  Have to wait for summer which is working its way here as I type :-)

Take Care,

Janet

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

fine weather and sunsets in CO we will be 110 F and not a sunset within a deserted mile :-)  Glad yo liked this bread.  I like how it tastes very much adn it is pretty inside and out - very soft and moist.  Going dark with 100% whole grains for altus taste test.  Should be yummy....forgot to save some old dough for it though.

Happy baking