The Fresh Loaf

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Now with a fool proof new non-sour sourdough starter...

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Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Now with a fool proof new non-sour sourdough starter...

Now with a fool proof non-sour sourdough starter...  

I got 240g of starter with just one heaping teaspoon of starter inoculation in 6 hrs!  Ten grams starter with 120g of water w/ 60g rye + 60g AP (10% protein wheat flour.)

It is a lot of fun having a sourdough that isn't sour for a change although I wonder if it still has the same health benefits as a sour one.  (?)  It is certainly better for cinnamon rolls and sweeter doughs and some plain breads.  (I have seen a very tall shiny spring-form pan in the market.)   I haven't had the courage to test this starter in an all rye recipe.  Maybe a double loaf experiment would be interesting.  I am keeping the young starter at about 75% hydration and refrigerated between feeds (after a 1/3 rise after feeding.)  I'm using it as mother, removing a heaping teaspoon to make more starter for baking.

The last 1-2-3 loaf was a mixed wheat/rye (40%)  (100g blend of toasted oats and chia) with a teaspoon of active malt,  60g dried old rye altus, bread made from the sour starter.  Today is it's second day but I'm yes, getting a trace of sour.  Very light but it is there.  How interesting...  The oats & malt make for a rather fluffy moist bread, bendably soft.  The dough was rather firm, I figure the oats and chia are responsible and they give lots of moisture up when baking so there wasn't much folding.  I worked altus crumbs along with sesame seed into the dough after an initial 30 minute rest.  The dough was retarded in the fridge overnight.  (But so was the last loaf and it didn't develop any sour tastes.) (Can't seem to download photos!)

I am curious if this starter gets more sour over time with just refrigeration storage or of it needs counter time to develop "sour."  Will chilling thwart San Fan lactobacteria?

Comments

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

nice cool clear sky this morning   22.5cm x 10cm   or   9" x 4"

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Great crust and crumb.  Is it more or less sour that you thought you would get?

Nice baking

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I was expecting no sour.  The first bite was not surprising but at the end of chewing there it was, hauntingly tantalizing, enough sour to say it was there.  How it danced on the tongue and longed to be noticed after the bread had been swallowed.  

The next loaf from this rye/wheat starter will be a sweet bread with no altus, we will see if the sour shows itself. 

isand66's picture
isand66

Interesting experiment. Thanks for sharing.  I do find I get more sour flavor from my starters when they are refrigerated overnight.

Nice crumb shot and crust on your bake too!

Ian

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

So far, in light of this new starter...  I think that only happens when the right Lacto-beasties are in the culture.  If they are not there, and I suspect they are not in my new starter, the dough doesn't increase in sour (I chilled it when it was 6 or 7 days old -- against all my recommended advice for new starters!)  

I suspect the sour is coming from the altus and that would mean...  what?  That "sour" is an flavonoid/aroma thing more than an acid thing?  I have even let the inoculated starter go beyond maturity and still, not producing a sour loaf although the starter tasted sour.  (an often complaint about many sd starters)  

What I have not done with this new starter is to raise the temperature of the fed/growing/ripe culture beyond 26°C (78°F.)  Below, yes, warmer?  No.  

I am also using small inoculations (1:5:5 to 1:12:12) with even more flour for the refrigerated stock "mother" starter.  A trick that makes my rye starter more sour!

Mini

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Hi Mini,

I don't know enough about micro organism behavior to know if refrig. changes things when done early on but I imagine it does as these beasites are very good at adaptation.  Wish I did know more about 'their' world and how it works.  To me it is a mystery.

 I am surprised that with such a small inoculation that you aren't getting sour.  I would think, to get a less sour starter, you would want to go in the opposite direction.  Well, at least that is what I do BUT I am using freshly ground whole grains and that makes a huge difference.  Ratio I use to keep mine mild is 1:.7:1  /100g seed, 70g water, 100g flour.  It will ripen in 3 - 4 hours depending on the room temp.  I build it daily since I bake daily.  I keep enough at the end of the day to start the next days feed and that bit does go into the refrig. overnight.  I also use some of my fruit yeast water as the water added during feeds.  Makes a wonderful smelling leaven and I no longer have to worry about going over during its rising phase. (With straight water it would get sour pretty sour if it went beyond its peak....)

For more info. on the sanfrancisco beasties I read about it HERE though it hasn't sunk in because I am not 'working' with what I read.

I am interested to read where this goes after time.  

Thanks for the post!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Was reading (thanks for the link) about Ars starter and Mariana's comment that a rye dough without a San Fran SD would end up gummy.  Well doesn't that sound like a challenge?  Now if I could only prove there are no SF beasties hiding in my starter...   It would be great if they glow in the dark.    Is that a full moon out there?  Beautiful!

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

doc.Dough's spreadsheet for Lab to yeast reproduction rates (as exhibited by the Lab to yeast ratio) the data shows the two ways to get more Labs vs yeast, and more sour, is to be cold 36 F or hot 90 F if labs and yeast are present together.   At 36 F the Labs are reproducing at rate 3.79 time faster than the yeast.  This means the longer  the starter is cold the more labs to yeast it will have and more sour it will be and the more Labs to yeast will be introduced into a dough.  At cold temperatures both Labs and yeast, even with labs reproducing at 3.79 times the rate of yeast, reproduce slowly  .019 vs .oo83  At 90 F the Lab to yeast ratio is 3.25 for Labs vs yeast, less than 36 F,  but the rates are .658 for Labs and .202 for yeast. So at high temperatures the Labs are reproducing at a rate that is nearly 35 times faster than at 36  F while the yeast is reproducing at 24 times faster.

The inference is that number of labs would be the same in 35 hours in an equal lump of starter, or dough with the same inoculation levels,  than would be present after 1 hour at 90 F.  But the yeast would only be 24 times greater meaning that if the dough is proofed at a high temperature it will start with more Labs and less yeast.  Since yeast makes the dough proof  to be optimum for baking, it should be able to proof longer allowing even more sour to develop 3 times faster at 90 F  than the yeasts reproduce.

The temperature where Labs and yeast reproduce at nearly equal rates with L/Y ratio near 1 is 72 - 75 F.    Those temperatures should produce a starter, levain or dough that is the least sour. 

Not believing any of this, or taking it at face value, I ran my own non scientific tests on starters, levains and dough.  Sure enough, long low temps for starters and levains with long low temp retards for doughs and then and high temps for final proof produced the most sour breads.  Tests of low inoculation levels of 1 g of starter to 100 g of flour and water and then retarding the levain produced a marked improvement of sour too,  as did large inoculation levels and large levains of low temp retarded starters and levains.  My tests show that small or large inoculations of starter and and levains at low temps with a long low temp retard of the dough combined with high temp final proof makes for sour.

I'm thinking, if this data is correct, that if you want your starter to be less sour and it has labs in it,  it is better to keep it on the counter at 73 F, don't refrigerate it, the levain or the dough and let the dough develop, ferment and proof at 73 F.  Or use commercial yeast or Yeast Water to nix the sour completely :-)

It will be interesting to see what others think about this and can tell us about their experiences.

Love your experiments and happy baking Mini.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

temp on this starter for a few days, feed and refresh it at room temp to encourage the San Fran Lacto-bacteria to overpopulate my sour-less starter.  Interesting.  A good reason to keep it cold for now.  Drag it out as long as I can.

Another thought...  doesn't it sound coincidental that most sweet breads were tradionally common during cooler months in the Northern hemisphere?  Maybe many years ago it is easier to maintain sweet starters during cooler weather, before refrigeration and instant yeast.  

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

I always thought that the sweet breads were related to the holidays.  People not having much money or food so they saved the fruits etc as a special treat and used them in baking during the dark cold months of winter. Another bread mystery :-)

Interesting study you have going.  Wonder what will result over time.

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

All the additives in Holiday bread, butter, dried fruits, nuts, eggs, etc. are and have always been very expensive. Gifts and baking these expensive, and thus rare, breads for family and friends was limited to special occasions like the Holidays and some others.   Long cold periods make ripe starters, levains and breads more sour and produce as much sour in 35 hours as proofing them for 1 hour at 88F .....it just takes longer.

grind's picture
grind

Have a look see here, Mini oven.  I have had Cliff's bread, and even though most of it is levain based, it has barely any sour in it -

 

http://www.farine-mc.com/2012/06/50-whole-red-fife-wheat-bread.html

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Very interesting his method.  It is kinda what I do though I didn't set out to do what I now do for any other reason than it fits into my baking schedule.  I do use frequent builds to allow the yeast population a head start on the LABS but wasn't equating the cold temp. of the refrig. as part of the flavor profile.  I just fell into the habit because I didn't want to feed my leaven every 4 hours around the clock.  It doesn't mind the overnight in the refrig. so it has worked out for us both :-)

Janet

PeterS's picture
PeterS

I concur with dabrownman Doc. My Pandoros of a couple months forced me to pay more attention to my starters and their behavior. Not wanting anything too acid, it was important to watch their temperatures and fermentation times--as well as building them to maximum activity. Taking that as lead now, if I want a mild starter, I limit my build fermentation times to 4-8 hours.

Currently, I have been maintaining my starters at RT (about 62-68F in my house during the winter) on a 24 hour schedule. If I am going to bake, I typically ferment the build for 6-12 hr max. The longer I go the more acid they become. In the mother starter, the lactic acid tartness is evident after 6-8+ hours and grows, the acetic acid (vinegar aroma) kicks in noticably at 10-12 hours and is quite potent at 24 hours.

This is essentially what Chad Robertson publicized with his Tartine baguette formula: split the leaven between a poolish (no LAB) and a sourdough starter. He builds with about 20g starter to 200g flour (at 100% hydration), fermenting both the poolish and levain at room temperature while keeping the time to a relative minimum (temperature dependent, of course). The poolish gives a lot of flavor with no noticeable tartness, the starter makes it more complex adding flavor, some (slight) tartness and modifying the dough. This is so even with bulk ferments of 3-5 hours at RT. Retarding overnight (18hrs) gives a nicely sour pain au levain. I like this approach, too, because it gives a thinner crust than an all sourdough bread.

I noticed last summer that my main starters lost quite a bit of their bite by July/Aug. I attributed that to higher ambient household temps in the summer (76-80F & sometimes a little higher). Regular feedings brought them back in October when the hot weather broke.

There was an interesting article about LABs, gluten and immune systems in today's NY Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/opinion/sunday/what-really-causes-celiac-disease.html. 


Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven
Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I think one could sub the ww with spelt easy enough.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Friday night:  Fed equal amounts of wheat AP and rye and let it sit out room temp of 24° for about 4 hours and then chilled it overnight (1:4:4.)  

Saturday: It's warmed up for about an hour (9am) and thought I'd take a whiff.  Smells sweet like mashed bananas.  I know that description has popped up more than once in the past but new to me.  Taste... not sour or sweet ...or anything like bananas.  Doesn't taste like wet flour either.  If I were to say sour it would be a very different kind of sour from my rye starter, maybe more weak pear or lightly green nutty.  Very bubbly and active.  Left a broken bubble trail from dragging the spoon a centimeter deep across the top.  Plan a sweet bread today with raisins.

Let the starter warm up and finish rising and deflate.  Then I added a little more water and flour but just to keep it going because I plan on using it before noon  (90g starter, 20 water, 10g rye, 20g AP)  but turned out I didn't get around to mixing my dough until evening.  Now if this sd wants to get sour, I certainly have given it plenty of opportunity at 25°C.  The starter (140g) was still active and elevated at 6 pm when I added it to my recipe (680g more flour) as a rather small amount, almost one to five.   Two hours later after a 30 minute rest, kneading and two rounds of stretch & fold, I tucked the covered dough into the fridge to retard overnight.  

Sunday:  Took out to warm up dough at 6:30am.  Folded at 7:45 and 8:20 and again at 8:50.  Dough smells so much like Elmer's glue (old recipe) to me and aroma getting stronger.  I'm doing a balancing act with this AP flour not knowing how much working time I have.  It is a rather wet dough and sticky having to use a little flour on the bench.  

Recipe:   Turtle Bean Bread  (Black Bean Bread) - Sourdough  recipe (first attempt)  

Starter Build: 

  • 10g rye & wheat seed starter
  • 40g water 25°C
  • 20g rye flour 
  • 20g wheat flour AP

Second build:

  • 90g starter from above
  • 20g water
  • 10g rye flour
  • 20g wheat flour AP

140g total weight

Dough Recipe:  (in order of additions)

  • 140g starter
  • 400g black turtle beans with salted water
  • 80g grape seed oil
  • 330 water
  • 13.5g salt  (1.8% on total flour)
  • 680g AP wheat flour
  • 40g dry brown cane sugar 
  • 140g drained soaked currents (100g fruit + 40g rum) (added after kneading, in the first folding of dough)
  • cinnamon sugar to make a swirl for final shape  (sprinkled on pressed out rectangle of dough)

total weight: 1823.5g 

isand66's picture
isand66

Curious to see how your bread turns out for the starter experiment and the black beans part.  I tried incorporating cooked beans over the summer in a bread and it was utterly repulsive.  I hope your results are much better than mine so I can give your recipe a try.

Ian

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

so I got a little loaf too.  It's hot and I couldn't resist cutting into it and it has a little sour tang to it.  Nice though.  I did take a fork to the beans and mash a few, didn't want too many whole beans.  Turned out great crumb wise too.  What did you do to your beans Ian?  Big loaf is still in the oven.

isand66's picture
isand66

I used a can of I think red kidney beans and warmed them up on the BBQ with some smoke.  I then smashed them up and added them to my dough.  Whatever I did caused the dough not to develop properly and it tasted terrible.  I wouldn't even feed it to the birds :(.

If you can post a photo of your crumb when you are ready that would be most helpful.  I will certainly give your formula a try.

I just got a Brod and Taylor Proofer and I'm experimenting with different proofing temps.  I just mixed up a dough after letting my starter proof overnight at 85 degrees F.  It probably went too long and overproofed, but I mixed it in with the dough ingredients and let the bulk dough proof for 2 hours at 80 degrees before just putting it in the fridge until tomorrow.

Added some Ale and onions to this one and so far the dough is nice and silky so I think this one will be a good one.

I will be curious to see how this one comes out though.

I did find that my last bake using the proofer only for the pre-shaping and shaped ferment at 80 degrees came out pretty good so by bumping up the temp. will be curious how the sour is effected.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

If I was cooking them myself, I would have to figure salt for the bean dry weight (or taste the dough).  These beans, and turtle beans are just lovely beans, already salted and cooked and after tasting them decided they weren't too salty or needed salt so I didn't calculate for them.  They do like to pop out during kneading and stretching, currents too.  The crumb is dark in the bread but if the beans are mashed to a pulp, they drastically change the color and chemistry of the dough too much.  I just broke them up a bit.  I think the bean to flour ratio is about right for wheat flour.  I might go for a bigger sourdough build.  

The recipe is basically Laurel's recipe on JMonkey's bean post but I didn't use WW or molasses.   The rise did take its time -- final fold and shape at 10:30am dabbing on a little oil to prevent skin from drying out.  I waited longer than expected to bake at 1:00pm.  (Turned the oven off and let the dough rise.)  Still springy when I turned the oven back on at 12:30.  Took a good hour to bake at 190°C  had to put a foil tent on top as it was browning too fast.  No scoring.  I can show the little loaf crumb without the cinnamon swirl.  The hole at the top held several tasty currants.  There are more in there just hard to see.   :)         The big loaf is a present and has been brushed with butter while hot.   Would one call this dark white bread?  And can you tell the beans from the raisins?

  

 

isand66's picture
isand66

Looks just about perfect.  Nice moist open crumb.  So do you taste the beans in there or are they there just for texture?

I shall have to give your formula a try soon.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

In fact, he can't believe there are beans in there, faked him out with the currants.  Turtle beans (not soy beans) are worth finding.  The beans add protein and fiber and a nice texture to the bread.  I notice the sour seems more pronounced around the currants, don't know if that is a taste thing, the contrast to sweet that makes the sour seem stronger or if there is an interaction worth mentioning.  I would skip over the retarding of the starter to keep the sour low and use some of the flour and water in the dough recipe to build a larger pre-ferment.  That would increase the dough rising times and reduce sour as well.  

Sounds like I got a recipe to change...  upping the flour and water to 100g each in the second build (reducing the flour and water in the dough.)  That would make 290g starter ... yup, that would work.  Might reduce the water by 30g to hold back if needed. 

It would be interesting to compare the two types of beans to check the carbohydrate values.  Turtle vs Kidney

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Utterly repulsive??  I seriously doubt that anything coming out of your oven would be regarded as that Ian.

John

isand66's picture
isand66

Trust me...the squirrels ran away in terror after taking a bite :).

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Ian that proves nothing!  Squirrels don't like beans...nice try ;)

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Nice bread Mini.  It is a pleasure to actually see one of your bakes.  The crumb looks like a bread I would very much enjoy.  Wish you had more photos!

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Too bad we can't eat photos.  I mean we can but it just doesn't compare and think of the indigestion!

I get the impression you want loftier sourdough loaves or a different crust.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Where did you get impression Mini?

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

of my loaves.  :)   

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

No, no.  This looks fine to me!  I am not picky when it comes to well baked bread.

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

so I guess the little sour flavouring beasties have managed to grow in the starter.   I did give them a big chance to show up in this bake with two retards long comfortable ferments and very ripe starter.  Not so fool-proof as I thought.   The starter is two months old now and kept in the fridge.  

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

There's only one way for me to get a sour that is dign of this name: 200% hydratated rye starter kept around 35° for 12 hours, regardless of starter inoculation. All the rest is mildly sour or even less so. Even doughs behave extremely different with this method: a sudden, immediate and massive dough strengthening.

I'm afraid that all this rye has fried my taste buds.