The Fresh Loaf

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Crumb collapses in the oven

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Fagus's picture
Fagus

Crumb collapses in the oven

 Hi ! The last three attempts with "pain au levain" have proved unsuccessful  loaves because they have not had the desired oven spring. I thought that the flour used is not able to hold more than 70% hydration.

Here is the procedure used to make these breads:

165 grams of leaven (125% h)

400 grams bread flour

50 grams rye

65 grams strong flour

321 grams of water

11 grams of salt

Mix all without the salt, rest for 30 minutes.
Add the salt and the mix Until the gluten is well developed.
First fermentation of 3 hours at 17 º Celsius
Make a "boule" and leave in a banetton for 2 hour of final proof at  21 º Celsius
Bake in a dutch oven at 230 ° C

I've had problems whenever I used hydrations over 70% and a liquid sourdough. It is possible that for some reason the flour does not hold water and the enzymatic action of a ferment liquid and because of this collapse during baking?

 

dwfender's picture
dwfender

Do you have any pictures? Here is my recipe http://www.allthingswheat.com/2012/08/15/pain-au-levain/

 

Usually collapsing in the oven is cauesd by one of two things, USUALLY: the dough could be over-proofing or you aren't developing the gluten enough. The first will definitely cause the dough to not see as much rise in the oven. It will be kind of lifeless and even shrink. Lack of gluten will cause the loaf to basically completely lose its shape. It will flatten out instead of rise and it will be much harder to pre-shape, final shape and deal with in general. 

Do you think it could be either of the two?

D
www.allthingswheat.com 

 

Fagus's picture
Fagus

Thanks for your response and recipe! I am aware that these are often the causes of collapse but it seems strange because it started happening to me since I use a new type of flour and liquid sourdough (125%). I never had such problems with similar amounts of water and using a 100% sourdough. Perhaps the greatest proliferation of yeast in a more liquid sourdough bread ferment make before and the overproof ... I'm sure that's not the gluten development problem because the dough was soft and smooth, has passed the "window test". Sorry but I haven´t got pictures

wally's picture
wally

Fagus - You begin by saying that the bread did not have "the desired oven spring," but end by speaking of the bread "collapsing."  There's a world of difference between a dough which doesn't spring up and one which falls.  So which is it?

A dough that doesn't rise much may just be proofed to its maximum, so that its volume doesn't increase during baking.  That doesn't mean you have a bad loaf of bread.  One that collapses, on the other hand, is probably suffering from being overproofed.

Flour will absorb however much water you choose to add.  However, at some point you're making pancakes and not bread. As you increase hydration you are going to get a progressively lower profile in your boule.

If your levain (same amount) is 100% instead of 125%, then your overall hydration is reduced from 70% to 67%.  That could make a difference in the overall volume of the baked loaf.  But I suspect the problem lies instead in its proofing.

Good luck,

Larry

Fagus's picture
Fagus

Hey Larry thanks for your explanation, i would like to say how of wich cases is my trouble but since i bake in a dutch oven i cant see the result until take out the cover of the combo after 25 minutes after beggin of baking, so i cant see the oven spring during the first stage. I found a picture of the first time it happened just after the baking


I know changing the hydration of the leaven also changes the dough moisture but the past doughs was also hidrated at 73% i just change the hydration of the leaven making the changes necesaries to keep the hydration at the same point, so i dont know why the problems appears when I increase the leaven moisture.

 

wally's picture
wally

I'd start by adding a stretch and fold to the dough after an hour and a half to strengthen the dough.  You might want as well to decrease the hydration a bit.

Larry

Fagus's picture
Fagus

Thank you again Larry, next time I will make a set of stretch and folds and i could try decreasing hydration amount until 70%.

 

Farmpride's picture
Farmpride

for sure, to much liquid, and to me it also seems not enough fermentation time, as most of the structure does not seem "collapsed" as not aireated to begin with.

albert/farmpride.com

Fagus's picture
Fagus

Thanks Albert, It was a weird thing, the dough seems to be underproofed but when i bake it flattened like overproofed, anyway thanks for your reply.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

This dough would work differently with commercial yeast but this recipe is close to a 1-2-3 sourdough and a sourdough needs the folding during the rise.  The need to fold the dough during rising increases with the hydration.  The wetter the dough, the more one folds the dough.  It is part of the sourdough development that is very different, building strength while the sourdough culture is breaking it down.  So the dough acts over-proofed (very relaxed) but what's really happening is that the dough is under-developed.  The large round bubbles in the crumb are saying that the dough just isn't strong enough.  Irregular bubbles that break into each other and collapsing are more indicative of over-proofing.  The lack of bubbles in the crumb around the big bubbles indicates more work needs to be done by the yeast before baking.   Folding the dough during the rise builds dough strength so that you can let the yeast work longer.  

The wetter the dough, the more the dough needs to be folded.  You'll get there.

Fagus's picture
Fagus

Thank you Mini Oven! I just made another attempt following your instructions and the result is different but it flattened again. The dough was retarded in the fridge for 12 hours and i made 4 set of S/F during the first 4 hours. Then, i put out of the fridge ante after shaped the dough has been proofing for 3 hours at 27ºC. Thoughts?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

when you shaped it?  I'm thinking it it took 3 hours of proofing after shaping, and the hydration is high, you might have gotten the partially risen loaf sooner into the oven or... done another stretch and fold before shaping.  How does the crumb look?  Describe it.  :)