The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

A light at the end of the tunnel would be really useful right now.

  • Pin It
JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

A light at the end of the tunnel would be really useful right now.

I loaned a book from my library; its called "How to make Bread" by Emmanuel Hadjiandreou. It contains some nice SD recipes / formulas. The problem is that all the recipes refer to the starter that he guides you through making. He then uses the same build for each recipe. He does not state the starter hydration for each recipe / formula. Rather than make his starter I wanted to use my one. This is his starter creation / feed plan.


Day 1,
Take 1 Teaspoon of Flour and add 2 Teaspoons of Water and mix thoroughly.

Day 2, 3, 4 and 5:
Add 1 Teaspoon of Flour and add 2 Teaspoons of Water and mix thoroughly.

That makes 5 Teaspoons of Flour and 10 Teaspoons of Water.

His build for baking is take 15g of his starter and add
150g of Flour and 150g of Water. Cover and ferment overnight.
The next day use the amount of starter that each recipe requires.

As I worked through the maths I used the Standard conversion for Teaspoons to Grams:
1 teaspoon = about 5 millilitre ( ml ) = 5 grams ( g )

I carried on working through the maths, using previous guidance. When I finished I was pretty sure I had worked out the hydration of his starter and build for baking.

 

 

I came out with 200% hydration for the starter and 103% for bake starter. I was not sure these sounded right so I decided to weigh some flour and water. Using a proper measuring spoon I weighed a Teaspoon of White Strong Bread Flour and a Teaspoon of water; to my surprise the flour weighed 4g and the water weighed 6 ml. this contradicted the 5g / 5ml from the standard conversion.

So now I have lost my way - I am not sure how to proceed, so I need help.
A light at the end of the tunnel would be really useful right now.

John
The Baking Bear

 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

Sounds like the author wanted to bake at somewhere around 100% hydration for the levain.  Just build to that, make sure the levain doubles as it should and use the amount specified in the formula.  More or less of anything won't make a difference that you  or I can tell in the end.   Next bake reduce the hydration of the starter to 85% and see if the bake changes in any way.  The one after that - go to 115 %.  See which one gives you the best results for you and your taste and use that one going forward.  No Worries!

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

Thanks - i will go with the 100% hydration and see how it comes out.

John

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

Hi John,  Careful the light at the end of this tunnel could be THE TRAIN.

seriously, I don't get this process.

First off all starter builds start with a seed starter or mother starter whatever you want to call it.   Day 1 is just flour and water no starter.  So something is missing there.

Point two that I don't understand is.  on that feeding schedule just adding a teaspoon of flour and water for 5 days...that is going to be one starving/ weak starter.   Nothing that I would want to bake with.

So the top of your chart end you with 75 g of flour and water that you have been mixing together for 5 days....then the next set down you have the seed and a build to 100% hydration.

I feel like your talking on a cell phone and every third word drops.   So I think you need to take another look or give more information.

Sorry I could not be more help.

one more thing.  http://www.farine-mc.com/2012/04/how-to-make-bread-by-emmanuel.html

This also gives contact information if you have any questions.

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

Starter builds start with a starter, but starter creations start with just flour and water.  When the starter is being created, you don't need to give it large proportions every day because there is not yet a large population of yeast and bacteria.  You just need to prime the pump, so to speak.  I did it using cups, but there is no reason it would not work with teaspoons.  That would certainly minimize the required size of vessel.  I ended up making sourdough chocolate cakes and the like with my infant culture as it overfilled its jar.  Now, at the end of the five days it is likely to be a weak starter, but that is because it is young, not because it is starved.  However, this depends on the flour used.  Newly created whole grain rye starters can be vigorous in just five days.

 

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

Guess I missed that part.  Top of the spread sheet said build starter not create starter.  Every starter that I created required a period of feeding and discarding so I did not recognize this as a new starter.  I agree that most new starters would be weak at 5 days and i think that a starter built this way and never fed and discarded feedings would be out of balance and would not produce a good bread.  (like myself) some things improve with age.  :-)

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

It was at the end of his first paragraph, where he said "starter creation/feed plan".  After Day 5, he described the build for the baking which uses 15 g of the 5-day-old starter.  It is not obvious how things continue from there on.  I skipped reading the speadsheet because the print is too tiny for my aged, but not improved, vision.  *smile*

I never truly discard any of my starter.  I feed the entire thing, ferment it overnight, store part for the future, and bake with the rest.  If you wish to think of it that way, I bake with the discard.

 

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

I do the same with my starter. I feed it, ferment over night then remove enough to feed and store in the fridge.  What could have been considered discard I use that to start my build.

I do this for fear of not puling out dough from the build to use as my seed.  I would hate to bake all of my starter if and when I get distracted.

After all ...As I get older I find my mind is becoming a steel trap....information goes in, but can't get out.

 

 

MangoChutney's picture
MangoChutney

5 ml equaling 5 g is only true for a material with a density of 1, such as water.  Flour is "fluffier" than water, that is, less dense.  Therefore 5 ml of flour does not weigh 5 g.  5 ml of water should weigh 5 g, but the "about" in 1 teaspoon equaling 5 ml comes into play here, and also measuring spoons aren't always accurate.

Most probably the author intended 100% hydration, but if he did intend 150% hydration then somewhere he should refer to his starter as being more like pancake batter than thin dough.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It is easier to start a starter with a high hydration and later reduce it or thicken it up.  When I start a starter, I do not discard in the beginning days but just add wee amounts of fresh juice and flour.  Once I get proper activity thicken it up and wait for more action before discarding.  It is not good to discard when first creating and gathering the beasts for the starter.  So the method is sound.  Eventually the 1:10:10 (15g:150g:150g) feed to get the starter ready for bread baking is the push in the right direction.  It is a 100% hydration starter (or very close to it. 15g is but a runny tablespoon)  

Easy to use your 100% hyd starter in the recipe skipping over the "making of a starter" part.   Always good to read that first and figure out where you stand and where you can plug your starter into the recipe.  You done good!  :)  

"Light at the end of the tunnel...."  Feeling overwhelmed?    I remember before I learned to ski.  All I did was look down from the top of a mountain and think of getting to the bottom as fast as I could.  We all know that canon balling the ski hill as a beginner leads to trouble.  When I learned to look sideways at the slope and notice that the angle is much shallower when one slides across the hill, traverse rather than head straight down, any slope can become as slow as one wants it to be, the ski hill becomes wider.  Same with baking. Take your time and enjoy and slow down if you feel confused or rushed.  You shouldn't feel like you're trapped in a tunnel. Learning is more like opening a door into a bigger and brighter area.  :)

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

My reading comprehension must have hit an all time low.  Perhaps I'm just tired.

From your post above are you saying that I could take a teaspoon of water and flour mix it up and add one teaspoon of water and flour for four more days for a total of 5 days...and that will make a starter strong enough to make good bread?  Just add 150 g of water and flour and your good to bake?

Did I miss something else in the original post?

Just looking for that train. :-) 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

But if it always worked that way, we'd have nothing to trouble shoot or talk about.  

What I gather from the original post is that the poster already has a starter and was reading this starter recipe in a book.  The starter strikes the poster as odd, I think the starter is sounder than most I've read or seen.  Patience and not rushing the starter in the beginning plays a big role.  Discarding too quickly in the first few days is alike to throwing out the baby in the bath water.  

Refreshing too often raises pH when it should be lowered.  In nature, the beasties are pretty much left on their own to make their own primordial soup, grow, ferment and break down organic substances.  Using a few spoons of flour is just as effective and more economical as long as care is take to prevent the flour and water from drying out.  

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

"Under ideal condition" is a pretty big out.  I would think that if this process was published in a bread book it would be more reliable then "under ideal conditions"

Perhaps this is off topic from the original posters intentions but this method caught my eye and I find it interesting.  I don't have that particular bread book so I don't have a solid reference to the method.

To go from nothing (starter wise) to bread in 5 to 6 days sounds incredible.  I am skeptical because of my experience with what I have with my starter and from things I have read.

What I would like to do is test this method.  Would you be willing to help me through this.   Perhaps we could start a new thread. 

So I could use some "ideal conditions" to set up this experiment.  I will start this starter tomorrow on Monday and under ideal conditions I should be baking bread by next weekend.  I would like to stick to what was published so any help there would be great.   Else I will need to order the book.

So to start this how would I keep one teaspoon of water and flour from drying out until the next addition. Are we leaving it to open air or covering with a lid or plastic wrap?  If any one else wants to do this also and act as a duplicate would be interesting.

Like I said in my initial response this method just feels like it's missing something, no juice, grapes, no point of feeding and discarding.  All this in 5 days.

Thanks Faith

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

Hi,
I am going to reproduce the pages from the book, I hope it helps. To preserve the authors intellectual property I give the full reference as if in a bibliography.

Emmanuel Hadjiandreou, How to make Bread, London: Ryland Peters & Small, 2011. P11.

"Sourdough.

Wheat Rye and other grains have been combined with water by bakers for thousands of years to make sourdough starters. Wild yeast spores are present in air and flour. Mixing Flour and Water and allowing it to ferment - i.e. when yeast breeds and produces Carbon Dioxide - creates a starter (also known as the 'Chef' or 'mother'). The starter takes 3-5 days to develop and, when it is ready, can be used (in place of yeast) to make bread.

Day 1:
Take 1: mix 1 Teaspoon of Flour and 2 Teaspoons of Water in a clear jar. Seal and let stand overnight.

Day 2, 3, 4 and 5:
Add 1 Teaspoon of Flour and add 2 Teaspoons of Water to the jar and stir. More and more bubbles will form on the surface.

To make a starter: mix 15g/ 1 tablespoon from the jar with 150g/ 1 generous cup flour and 150g/150ml/ 2/3 cup warm water in a large bowl. Cover and let ferment overnight. The next day use the amount of starter needed for your recipe.

Add 1 teaspoon flour to the remaining ferment in the jar, seal and refrigerate for use another time. If it is left in the refrigerator for a long time, it might become dormant. Throw away the acidic liquid on the surface, stir in 30g/2 tablespoons flour and 30g/30ml/ 2 tablespoons water, mix to a paste, seal and let stand overnight. The next day, if bubbles have formed, it is ready to be made in a starter. If not repeat the process above. Treat your sourdough with tender loving care and you can keep it indefinitely."

 

hope this helps

John

The Baking Bear.

 

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

Hi Faith,

for the recipe for the final bake follow the link below.

http://www.farine-mc.com/2012/04/troubleshooting-dough-hydration-trick.html

please note the original recipe had an error  - the poster on the link says.

"If you are planning to make the Levain de campagne Bread from How to make bread by Emmanuel Hadjiandreou (the bread I am talking about below), please note that there is indeed a typo in the recipe and that the amount of water should be more or less 300 g and not 150 g. This was confirmed to me today by the author himself.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

What other details about the starter do we need to know?  What is mentioned in the text about temperature, water, type of flour, covering the starter, stirring, anything?

I don't see a reason to start another thread.   Anyone?  Five days is rather generous, I know of a few folks that have this going in three days.  

I can tell you right now I have 26 to 32°C room temp. -- summer.  On the sixth day, will reduce to 15g and add 150g each water and flour and let that peak.  Then depending on when it peaks, put it into a loaf.  We could go by weight but I like the idea of using the spoons of flour more.  I will use my soup spoon from the tableware.  Any suggestions for a recipe?

So ...on the 7th day, we have a bread to post and say if it's good.  ...and can rest.   (sounds familiar)

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

Mini,

please see my reproduction.

on Page 10 he talks of Water.

use room temperature or warm water. warm water = blood temperature when you put your finger in it.
in very hard water areas use bottled spring water.

from the picture it looks like a white flour.
there is no reference to the flour type used in the starter.
he mentions on page 8 he uses Strong or bread flour with a protein content up to 17%.

Good Luck
John.

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

Thanks John for the further information.  And thanks Mini for bringing up more things to consider.

I appreciate you indulging my curiosity.   Just sounds so simple and fool proof.

I will start the first mix tomorrow evening once off work and make the additions at the same time every evening.  I will be baking next weekend.  I'm going high class and will use a measuring spoon.  It's winter here and my house is kept on the cool side.  I average 60 to 65F.

If you think I need to be warmer I could put it in the proofer but I would hate to run this all week with just a teaspoon of flour and water.

It would be nice to use one of Emmanuel Hadjiandreou's recipes for the bread but I don't have a copy yet.  But I think it should  be a white bread.

Lol ...on the 7th day.

Thanks Faith

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

i plan to bake the "Levain de Campagne" tomorrow.

so the recipe calls for 150g of starter at 100%

 

so i have just mixed up the starter / sponge for the recipe.
i will post the build / bake so you can see how it comes out.

John

clazar123's picture
clazar123

Faith in Virginia-Put the starter on top of the refrigerator. The heat from the coils in the back genereally make it the warmest place in a winter kitchen. I'm in Wisconsin and I have measured 70F on top of the refrig when my kitchen is at 65F.Warmth makes a big difference in the new starter's growth-even a few degrees has a huge impact.

This is interesting. My record was actually 9 days from first teaspoon of flour/water to loaf but I did not know what I was doing at the time.I believe the above method can work, so this will be interesting to observe.  I have built many starters in the last few years successfully using different flours and fruits using a similar method. SOme of them took off immediately-some were slower. Amazing difference in characterisitcs.One I named "Wild Child". Phew- that one exploded in growth but its activity was very shortlived-he often ran out of steam before completing the job. His feeding schedule did him in-I couldn't keep up and he didn't like being refrigerated.

Have fun! It will be interesting and informative to watch what  happens.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I will use my cold tap water, nothing fancy or warmed either.  Got started Sunday at 5 pm.  It just barely coats the bottom of my deli bowl.  I will start switching out half a spoon white flour to add to the rye about day 3.  

I will go with a 1-2-3 bread recipe for day 7 using perhaps 200g starter.  (200g starter, 400g water, 600g flour, 2 tsp salt or 12g)   

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

I will be following the instructions with no deviations.   I want to aproach this as a first time user.

I thought about how small the initial mix would be so I need to find a small container.  I fear I'll have half or the mix sticking to the spoon.

Faith

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

Hi Faith, Mini,

here is the dough build.

Method:

1, in one (smaller) bowl, mix the flours and salt together in a bowl - this is the dry mixture 
2, in another (larger) bowl, mix the sourdough starter and water together until well combined. This is the wet mixture.
3, add the dry mixture to the wet mixture and mix until it comes together, the mixture will be a but soft, but don't despair and don't be tempted to add more flour.
4, cover with the bowl that had the dry mixture in it and let it stand for 10 minutes
5, after 10 minutes, knead the dough as in step 5 on page 87.

Page 87 - step 5.
after 10 minutes, leaving the dough in the bowl, pull a portion of it up from the side and press it into the middle. Turn the bowl slightly and repeat this process with another portion of dough. Repeat another 8 times. The whole process should only take about 10 seconds and the dough should start to resist.
6, cover the bowl again and let it stand for 10 minutes.
7, repeat steps 5 and 6 twice; then step 5 again.
8, cover the bowl and let it rise for 1 hour.
9, lightly dust a clean work surface with flour. Put the dough on the work surface and shape into a smooth, rounded disc.
10, dust the proofing/dough-rising basket with flour. Lay the dough inside it and dust the dough with flour.
11, let the dough rise until about double the size - this will take between 3 and 6 hours. 
12, about 20 minutes before baking, preheat the oven to 240°C (475°F) Gas 9. Place a roasting pan at the bottom of the oven to preheat. Fill a cup with water and set aside.
13, when the dough has doubled in volume, tip it out of the basket on to the bread peel or prepared baking sheet.
14, slash a simple pattern on the surface of the bread using a sharp, serrated knife.
15, slide the bread into the preheated oven on its baking sheet, or if using a baking stone, slide it from the peel onto the hot stone. Pour the reserved cupful of water onto the hot roasting pan and lower the temperature to 200°c (425°F) Gas 7.
16. Bake for about 30 minutes, or until brown.
17, to check if the bread is baked through, tip it upside down and tap the bottom - it should hollow.
18, if it is not ready, return to the oven for a few minutes. If it is ready, set it on a wire rack to cool.

i have baked this today - not sure if its fair for me to show pics or discuss until you have completed your trials.

John.

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Did you use your starter or the one posted in the book?      Come on... (pretty please) post and tease us!   :)

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

Hi Mini,

i used my 60% hydration and built it up to 169g so i had some spare.
well - as you asked so nicely.
i will sort out the full set i took.
i must say i was disappointed with the final result.
watch this space.
John

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

Looking at that recipe think I will follow mini's lead and go with her (1-2-3) 

For me this is more of a test of the starter ( it' strength, flavor, personality) after just 5 days.  So I want to use an all white bread.  I think it will be easier to assess the properties of the starter.  I will also be using a control  of this "Mad experiment"  I will bake a second loaf using my aged tried and true starter.

Thinking of documenting this on video.  That is if I can get past my fear of the camera.

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

i am so glad you said that because i am not happy at all with the final loaf, here is why.

I followed the recipe and method strictly.
There are a number of areas I was not happy with.
Maybe you can take these areas and modify your bake.

1, it's far too wet - the original recipe had an error in the water volume for the final dough. The author confirmed it should be 300 ml. it was sticky all the way through. He did say it was wet dough, but bear with it. I stuck with it and I say it was too wet.

2, to my mind the bulk proofing was too short - I thought it really needed a lot longer - maybe another 2-3 hours. Despite this feeling I still went with what the recipe said - 1 hour bulk proofing. The dough was not fully developed and when I slashed it the slash almost disappeared on baking.

3, the final proofing expanded OK, but the dough slunk back on the baking stone, it would not support itself. There was very little oven spring. On the stone it was still too wet, and it stuck to the bottom of the floured banneton. If I had waited the 3 and 6 hours suggested it would have been far to over proofed.

4, the final loaf has a nice crust - but the crumb is wet and sticky. Not a nice crumb at all.

What I would do different next time if I were to use this recipe.

1, Lower the hydration to somewhere nearer 60%

2, Extend bulk ferment time.

3, Reduce final proofing time.

good luck
John

 

 

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

It also looks under baked.  the bottom of that loaf looks pale.  That could also be an effect of  the higher hydration.   I thought the correction said 250- 300g water...I'll look again.

But also remember to watch the dough not the clock.  With that said I have a proofer so with Hamelman's book I have found his timing is spot on if you can maintain the required temp.  But I still watch the dough.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

This was baked on a stone?  Tell more.  How long was the stone pre-heated, at what temp?  Check to see if your oven lower coil is working.  If this was baked on a preheated hot stone, there should be some brown crust on the bottom,  even if the center was raw.  The top part looks good.  You need more heat under the bottom center of the loaf to get it to lift.

65% hydration would make the water  260g   

Off hand, I would change the 10 min rest in step 4 to 30 minutes.  Jump to Kneading in the bowl and then start the bulk rise with later folding after 30 minute rests.  Can't help but think that first 10 min is a typo.  It would certainly help the dough.  Ten minutes is hardly enough time for the bran to soften in the ww (if there are flecks in the flour) let alone enjoy a second cup of coffee.  No flecks, still wait 30 minutes.  (Sip slowly.)  Do you suppose the author is reading this?  He should know that most of us have bran flakes in our ww.  (Little lurking gluten cutters they are.)  

 

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

I preheated the oven for two hours with the stone and the steaming pan full of pebbles.
my digital thermometer, oven and in oven thermometer confirmed 240°C.
my oven works perfectly as I baked two wholemeal loaves after I baked this and the were fine.


the centre is not raw - just a bit sticky - it toasts OK.


I would go for 240 ml making 60% hydration.


yep - I agree the autolyse is too short - I also don't like adding the salt so early is stage 1.
I would autolyse the flours and water for 60 minutes - then add the starter followed by a short mix - then add the salt.


there are no typos from my end - its the page from the book faithfully reproduced. - as humbly as I can I question a lot of the timings.


as for the author - I hope he is reading it - I stand by what I say.

John

 

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

this is today's bake with a different SD recipe - it used the all the same flours and the overall hydration is 70 %.

i baked them at the same temperatures and for the same times.

here is the bottom.

so i would say "the proof is in the Bake".

to me the difference was the dough not the baking

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I won't argue.  :)    

My rye starter was smelling like wet corn cobs the first 24 hrs but now (before the third feeding) smells like my petunias and a tiny bit sour.  Water still separating from the flour and I just tip the bowl and swirl the starter around the bowl to stir.  After adding fresh flour and water 3rd feeding) the aromas are still there but lighter.

My flat tablespoon tableware gives 4.2 g of rye  and  two spoons water gives 19.3 g   which is something like 460% hydration.  Days 4 and 5 fed with half rye half ap wheat flour.

Before feeding on Day 5, there is a good amount of cloudy layered water and on top of that water but the culture smells like a sourdough culture now, fruity-nutty with sour notes.  Decided to just add the flour (second day of half rye/half bleached ap wheat) for day 5 and not the two spoons of water.   The rye flour bran flakes are now suspending in the culture after stirring and looks like my separating days may be over.  Still very runny.  

Darn, I'm deviating from the instructions (drat.)  OK, will add the water.  So much for  a nice suspension.   ☂  Now it is really runny stuff!  I could sit here for hours stirring and smelling it.  Fresh!   Temp 25°C   

Day 6:  Water continues to separate but the culture gets more sour and smelling more like a cider house, overripe crushed apples.  Color of liquid is slightly darker than the wet flour.  Tastes like slightly sweet cereal with a splosh of vinegar and feels a little mealy.  Aftertastes of yeast.  Removed 15g of stirred up culture, added 150g warm water, 75g rye flour & 75g wheat ap flour (or fed a 1:10:10 ratio.)  Put the 315g mass into a one liter measuring cup, put plastic on it and put it in the shade outside at 28°C at 13:30 hrs.  Will check on it every 2 hours.  Will make dough when it peaks (starter starts to level out after rising.)  

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

What would your husband say....commenting on John's bottom...tisk tisk. :-)

I'm running a day behind you and your results sound identical to mine.  Your descriptions of look, smell and taste are spot on.  Day 5 smell for me reminds me of wine lees.  A smell the sticks with you if you ever work in a winery.

I plan to take my active starter and dilute it to the same hydration rate as the test subjects and do three 150g additions all with bread flour.  Then I'll put them in an equal environment (proofer) and see how fast or slow they are.   Thinking 78F should do.   If the starter is active and working I will bake something with each.

Looking forward to your results because it sounds consistent between yours and mine I assume your temperature is much higher then mine.  I have been keeping a steady 65F except for last night I think it dropped to 60F (cold snowy night)

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

report.  A few bubbles but no heavy lifting yet.  Waiting for those yeast numbers to increase...  

edit...  at 5 hrs it's starting to rise, already 1/4 higher.  Looks like I will have to bake tomorrow afterall.  :)

another edit:  after 6.5 hrs it has now doubled and still rising.  !!!   :) 

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

At what temperature is all this going on?

About to give day 5 feeding.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

After 7 1/2 hrs the starter leveled off around 9pm.  At 10pm tonight I measured out 200g and combined with 360g water (65%) 600g AP wheat flour and a teaspoon of malt, 11g salt.  Shaggy mass is glutinizing while I type.  

Starter Volume went from 250ml to 570ml during the rise.  Lovely aroma.  Kneaded into a smooth dough and everything is refrigerated until 6am of day 7.

Dough came out of the fridge around 7 (hey, it's sat!) and got a stiff stretch and fold to warm up the dough.  Nice dough!  Already has lots of gas.  Set it on my satelight reciever because it is nice and warm there, the room is 25°C but I want to get this baked before I close up the house! Did another S&F at 8:30 and shaped 9:45 dusting with flour & placing into a plastic rice sieve, no cloth - holes are small enough.  One hour later into the preheating oven with a boiling steam pan at the end of the roaster pan.  11:10  Oops! got very brown (naw, I take that back) used to longer baking bread, my nose told me this one was done.  Not bad, could be better.  Scoring didn't open as much as I wanted but the whole loaf sprung evenly.  

Tastes...  got to eat a slice before posting pics...  mmmmm, one finger typing here...  um, ...sure do like that rye... 50g in the starter, yup (half of the flour amount there) ...balanced, nutty.  Think I better double check later.  Crumb color is a light tan.  Misted the loaf with water before it went in the oven and which gave it a "cloudy" crust surface.  

 

 I call the starter a successful method.   ✍

Mini

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

WOW!

that is a nice looking loaf.

glad the starter worked well.

i am not sure what you mean by "1 Tso Malt"?

i am going to take a note of your formula/recipe.    :-)

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The "o" is right next to the "p."   I used dried malt powder, self made from hulled and sprouted barley.  It is diastatic.

I was surprised how mild the bread tasted.  Not as sour as I had expected.  

I also think 65° F is too cold.  Don't forget that once flour and water are combined, the flour starts to break down and deteriorate.   If you don't support the desired bacteria and yeast in their comfort zone, you risk the flour falling apart and rotting from fungi before the bacterial chain of events can get started that leads to a workable starter.  If 65°F is chosen because it is an economical house temperature, remember that our bodies produce heat to maintain 98.6°F,  we wear layers of clothes to trap that heat and insulate ourselves.  If you ran around in just underwear in your house with 65°F I think you'd have another opinion.

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

The starter is now getting some lift some 20 hours later but has yet to double or peek (I guess).  I won't be baking with it because it's just to late in the evening to even consider starting a loaf (even if the starter had peeked by now).  Work will prevent me from baking tomorrow.

65F is cool but my other starters are slow but act fine at this temperature.  I like it better then in the summer months where the starter peeks in 3 hours.  I was going to put this in my proofer...but the weekend got messed up with work...so I just let it run up on the shelf.

The smell has improved somewhat...but nothing close to the sweet almost vanilla smell from my aged starter.  You could have a good point with the breaking down of the flour.  It does give me a sense of decomposing.

LOL...65F is warm for me.  I avoid running around the house in my undies out of respect for the others here. :-)  I keep the house cool because I work outside all day at 10-50F this time of year.  So going from a hot house to freezing outdoors then back to a hot house is difficult on my system and makes the 20F day feel that much colder.

As an end note to this experiment  I think I would support the process.  You had good results and my starter is doing more then I expected so I think with better warmer temperature or perhaps an extra day or two growing the starter the method is sound.

I will keep this  starter set running until next weekend and plan for a bake with it then.

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

Yes I do agree.  Very nice.

Time will tell if I can get the same results.

More later.

Faith

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

Faith,

as i said i reproduced the book page and the book page says 300 ml.

i also stuck to the book to prove it good or not, so against my own thoughts i stuck to it and that's what it produced.

as i said there are changes i would make if i made it again.

personally i don't think i will bother.

John

 

 

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

Check out this page... http://www.farine-mc.com/2012/04/how-to-make-bread-by-emmanuel.html

"page 94: Levain de campagne Bread: replace "150 g warm water" by "250 g to 300 g warm water"

So there is room to adjust hydration.

I know what you mean,  some loaf's (even if they need improving) have a potential that you can recognize.  If this loaf does nothing for you then it's time to move on.  There are like a gazillion more recipes to try.

No worries... one day you will meet the right loaf and live happily ever after. :-)

Faith

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

.....

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

 The starter's have started.  Decided do one with white and one with W/W

Faith

 

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

that sounds like a good plan.

there are several recipes i have given up on - so i am trying a different SD recipe today.

the starter looks great - just about to mix the flours, add the water and set it by to autolyse .

good luck

john

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

2ed feeding,  steady 65F, humidity is high (raining hard 2 days straight) the W/W smells like wet cardboard the white barely has any smell at all. And no sign of any activity.

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

So how are the starters going?

When do you plan to bake?

John

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

My starters appear to be identical to Mini's descriptions.  I don't think my white starter is quite a sweet smelling as Mini's.  Mine smells more like wine lees (almost yeasty)

Tonight I will do the 150g addition part.

I'm struggling with timing at this point.  I planed to bake tomorrow (Sunday)  but I will need to put in a work day.  We have not worked all week due to the constant rain and snow.  So now I'm at the mercy of the subcontractors. (arrrrg)  I hope to make a short day of it tomorrow and still get the bake in. 

I would hate to thrown in a retardation to make it work with my schedule and I don't want to run off with things rising so I don't know????

I will post more later when I figure this out.

Faith

 

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

Things are not looking so wonderful here in Virginia.

At midnight  ( 5 hours into Day 6) I took the two starters one white and one WW and before feeding took out the 15g and fed them both with 150g water and flour each.

It has now been 11 hours at 65F and there is no rise at all and it has a few bubbles showing some signs of activity but the bubbles are small and not nearly enough at this point.  Yesterday my established starters all peeked at the 11th hour so the temperature may be slowing things down a bit so I will give it more time.

I must say that the smell of the white starter has gone from a yeasty smell to an unpleasant sour/septic gas smell.  The same unpleasant smell is in the mix from midnight as well.  The WW I would not say has an unpleasant smell  but it's just sitting there also.

I have not given up at this point.  Things move slower when it's cool. 

We will see,  Faith

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It's been two and a half days sitting in the fridge.  My starter is waiting for my verdict.  Do I keep it?  I already have a great Rye starter.

The starter did not bake sour tasting and I thought about cinnamon rolls the whole time I was munching on my bread baked Saturday.  The raw good fermented starter smelled and tasted sour today so I thought I'd do another test...

First I took 5g of starter, added 20g water and 15g each rye and ap wheat flour (1:4:6).  Made a little soft dough ball, rolled it in rye flour and set it in a closed container on the counter to ferment at 24°C.  (69% hydration) Put into the fridge after 4 hrs.  (I feel like abusing this one for a while.) 

Then I took what was left  (315-200=115  115-5= 110g approx) and thought I'd make a pancake to see how sour it would bake up.  Added an egg, 1/2 tsp baking powder mixed with a scant teaspoon of sugar, a dribble of vanilla extract, a pinch of salt, a spoon of melted butter and milk to make a pancake batter.  I'm always making crepes to test flour and flavours.  It's fast and not much fuss.  I fried it and tasted it.  Not sour tasting at all.  Interesting.  

I'll keep the starter.  I need one for sweet doughs.   I will try my best to keep it firm mixed 100% hydration or less and away from my other starter.  I will however let everyone know if it turns sour sour on me.  :)   Please don't let that deter anyone from using this starter method.  I certainly will use it again!  My outcome might be influenced by temp, flour and starter age.  

Mini

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

That was the peek at 20 hours. It did a bit of a lift but not much  perhaps  1/4 and it certainly never doubled.  It would never been able to make bread.  So with my cooler temperatures it was a wash for me...5 days was just not enough time.  I'm thinking of trying again with warmer environment but I should wait until I have other things to run in the proofer or just do it in the spring or summer.  I really don't need another mouth to feed at this point.

It was fun racing starters with you Mini.   Looks like you won this one. :-)

Faith

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

instructions should be more specific in the book.    

I do like that the recipe is not wasteful and takes very little flour.  The whole 5 day process took 25g of flour, the 6th day 150g.  

If cooler temps are used, a longer wait awaits and maybe... maybe (!) it would work better to feed it every second day so the pH level doesn't rise so much (presumed) between feeds.   It goes to reason that if the culture moves slower, the feedings should be slower too.  If you try it again with 65°F might be interesting to try that.   :)

Mini

 

 

clazar123's picture
clazar123

A little difficult,also, as posts appeared in a not sequential order. I don't know if its the distant locations,distance between servers or time zones but I have noticed this before.

It was very interesting to hear how the starters did in such a short time. My personal best was 9 days from first flour to first loaf but temp played into that,also. My kitchen is often 65F. I have found that the top of the refrigerator is a warmer spot-often even 70-75F if you put it towards the back which is right above the warm coils on the back of the refrigerator.

Thank you!

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

That's an interesting concept.   Hmmm, do I have enough flour?  :-)  Yes, I agree that it is a nice process that does not waste big amounts of flour.  Easy enough to try again...I'll work out a good start day so I can get a weekend bake.

clazar123 Yes I see what your talking about.  This site lets you reply to a specific post and not just reply at the end of the line.  So it can get jumbled up a bit...this one did for sure.  I did like your top of the fridge suggestion,  Unfortunately I have a shelf just above the fridge and all the heat escapes from the side in the back.  I do have ways of increasing the temp.  the old light bulb on a rheostat, or my proofer.  Mini was running the test in warmer climate and I decided to run it in a cooler one.  This whole thing started as instructions from a book...so what worked for Mini should have worked for me.  So it's clear that the process works but it may want a few more lines of instructions to discuss colder climates.

theresasc's picture
theresasc

I just found this thread a few days ago and decided to give the starter a try.  I have just done the third day feed and things are bubbly and smelling nice, not skunky.  I have never messed with a sd starter before, so I am just going by this thread on what to expect.

My main question is on day 6, after you take the 15g of starter and add to it 150g of water and flour, is this mixture now considered a starter/seed?  Is this what I will continue to bake with and care for?  What of the slurry that was left after the 15g was removed, does this just get tossed?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It is in there somewhere.  (I was curious if it can defend itself from my husband.) ...found it still under a layer of hooch which has turned grayish clear but the culture underneath on the bottom looks creamy colored.  Smells like a wine.  No visible invaders except for the two legged one asking me what it is.  I just kept it around as a back up.  I should send it off to the composter.

The small part of starter I fed, let swell (about a third) and tucked into the fridge looks like it needs feeding again.  I will also keep it around as back up for a few days.  It is very small.

Yes, just continue feeding what is left of the peaking 15g+150g+150g  starter after taking a good portion for your bread.   The fed starter becomes a viable sourdough starter culture and all you need to do is take 5 to 20g of the refrigerated starter and elaborate for another recipe.  The starter can stay stored in the fridge until it gets low or looks like it could use a feeding. (like mine right now) It still smells great!  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

it.  It has been sitting in the fridge since Jan 21.  I scraped off the top and got to the creamy insides, about a teaspoon and gave it 100g water and 100g mixed rye and wheat.  Sat on the counter all afternoon at about 25°C and didn't do much.  By evening it was not quite doubled.  By morning it was peaking on a second rise but had quadrupled  sometime between 2 and 6 am. (must have been the tiny inoculation) definitely overripe and smelling very aromatic.  I used 170g into a 1-2-3 sourdough formula pretty much using wheat, some oats, chia, and more rye with a good dose of caraway seeds and 2% salt, one teaspoon of diastatic malt.  Baked the loaf at lunchtime while DH was on the phone.  This time did 3 or 4 stretch & folds before shaping.  Noticed some tearing going on so the AP flour was at its limit.  Rolled up and placed into a long loaf pan.  Dabbled some water on the loaf and covered it to finish rising.  Baked in a 190°C oven with a second inverted pan over the top for the first 20 minutes.  Held in place using two open paperclips at two corners.  Total baking time was about 40 minutes.  After depanning, it looked too pale on the sides so it went back into the hot oven sitting naked on the rack with bottom heat only.  Buttered the cooling crust.  

It's cool now and I cut off the end to sample, not noticably sour but I do get a tingling at the back of my jaw as an after effect.  I was wondering if the double peaked starter would add a fair share of sourness to the loaf.  Not so sure but the loaf did rise faster than I had roughly anticipated.  Nice little starter.  Already takes my abuse rather well.  I added water to what was left in the bowl and fed it more wheat and rye flour.  Will reduce and feed again  thicker at 8pm, let it rise just a little bit and tuck it away in the fridge for a later day.  

I got plans for toasting part of this loaf and serving with lochs & egg slices.  While we were shopping for Chilean bubbly today, we found where the caviar was hiding!  That will make a nice evening meal after the rain has passed.  Looking forward to a nice tasty sunset!  :)

theresasc's picture
theresasc

After about a week, it never did anything so I tossed it out.  I am now trying the pineapple juice route, only I used orange juice.  That has finally doubled after nine days.  I think my kitchen might be too cool - 68 F.  I might finally have something going, time will tell.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

slowly increase the amount of flour that the starter can eat thru and fall back within the set time frame.  You can even remove some of the starter and put it in a zipper bag, maybe two bags and slip it into your pocket to keep warm, then return to the main batch of starter overnight to see if that boosts it. 

theresasc's picture
theresasc

Today is day 11, and this morning both the ap & the ww starters are all tall and bubbly, so I fed them both 1:2:2, and just a little while ago I started building the ap 1:10:10 for a bake.  The ap more than doubled in about 6 hours in my cool kitchen, and the ww starter is not far behind.  I am planning to just fed the ww for a few days and hopefully bake the first sd loaf with the ap starter tomorrow, or at least that's the game plan.  Mini, thanks for the encouragement - its pretty cool to see everything actually working.

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

"It's pretty cool to see everything actually working."      

It is isn't it?  

:)