The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Sourdough Rye Loaf never turns out the same way twice....

  • Pin It
ktgp's picture
ktgp

Sourdough Rye Loaf never turns out the same way twice....

I'm looking for advice on the following recipe:

2# 67% hydration sourdough starter

1 TB yeast

8oz. rye

1#12oz. bread flour

2 TB cocoa

2 TB salt

1/4 cup brown sugar

2 oz. espresso

6 oz. apple cider

10 oz. water

1 oz. oil

 

The main issue that is driving me nuts is that when baked @ 325 in a convection oven, the free-form loaf busts out the side.  It does not seem to matter if it's proofed in the fridge or at room temp, and seems to be worse at a higher temp.  We've tried a few different ways of slashing.  Does anyone notice any red flags in the formula or have any suggestions for oven settings?

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

There doesn't seem to be anything terribly out of whack with the recipe. I calculate that about 35% of the flour is prefermented, and the overall hydration is 56%.  This might be a bit too dry, but probably doesn't have an impact on your bursting problem.  I would suspect that the loaf needs more proofing, as side bursting is often due to underproofing.  I find that the poke test is not always accurate on loaves that have been refrigerated.

-Brad

 

Yerffej's picture
Yerffej

Without knowing the details of your recipe it is hard to tell exactly.  What you are describing is probably a result of under proofing.  I would search the site for information on proper proofing.

Jeff

ktgp's picture
ktgp

It bulk proofs for about 2 hours, and if we're doing it the same day it sits for about 1 hour as a loaf

Farmpride's picture
Farmpride

others have said proofing is a problem, could be, i like to coat the loaf with oil for final proof, which helps to keep the crust pliable, a dry crust is more apt to break, you can also try to proof with a very moist air, i have a proofing cabinate that is heated and steam added, which helps, but then you should get it into the oven as soon as it is ready, to let it sit in the open before going to the oven is asking for problems also.(crust dring).

albert, farmpride.

ananda's picture
ananda

Hello ktgp,

There are a number of complex factors in your recipe which impact on dough performance...examples being that cocoa and sugar are both thirsty ingredients, cider contains alchohol which will weaken the gluten, espresso is acidic, etc.

But most of these difficulties can be overcome by finding a way to add more water into your formula.   I'm sure the paste is too tight and the ferment is becoming stuck.   Taking account of the cocoa, hydration is barely over 50%.   I don't make breads like this, but note that Hamelman's Black Bread formula, for instance, uses hydration of 68%.

Good luck

Andy

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

What you say makes perfect sense, and it sounds like it could get complicated with interactions between many ingredients.  Just out of curiosity, is there a formula or rule of thumb to estimate the additional water needed for a thirsty ingredient to keep the effective dough hydration?  If there is 1% sugar, would the hydration be increased 0.5%? 1%? 2%?

Thanks,

-Brad

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Brad,

balancing formulae can be quite tricky, and of course it really does depend what product you are making.

For Cocoa we generally teach to hydrate at 100% in cake formula.   In all honesty, I have never used it in bread.

For sugar, it is more important to understand how sugar behaves..what its functional properties are.   I'm thinking here that, while it is hygroscopic, so tends to win out in competition for water, it also induces flow in the baked product...that softening effect.   So constructing the formulae really succeeds by understanding all the functional aspects of the ingredients in the formula.

Best wishes

Andy

breadforfun's picture
breadforfun

Thanks for the explanaton, Andy.  I, for one, would love to take a class from you to help me understand the properties of the various ingredients and their interactions.  If you are ever so inclined to give a seminar on the topic here in California, I suspect we could gather a quorum.

-Brad

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

2 pounds of starter and 2 pounds of flour

I don't see why yeast is in there.

I would not add any yeast.  It is rising too quickly and tearing the matrix open instead of stretching it.  

Juergen's picture
Juergen

I'd definitely up the hydration if I were you. Also, slashing fairly deep can help. I've had problems with bursting sides on some loaves too even though to my best of knowledge, the doughs had been proofed adequately. When I started to slash them a little deeper, I got no more cracks. Also, try to proof your dough in a reasonably humid environment. At the proofing stage, perhaps you could try and 'tent' your dough under aluminum foil sprayed with some water on the underside.

Faith in Virginia's picture
Faith in Virginia

I think I see the problem but others can chime in to check me out.  I have been working with 80%, 70% and 66% sourdough ryes all day.  

If you are using a sourdouugh  starter  and one (Tablespoon 8.5 grams of instant yeast)  It looks like your way over yeasting.  Are you sure that it is not calling for a Teaspoon of yeast?

Just my thought.

Juergen's picture
Juergen

How much is 8,5 grams of yeast of the total formula? about 1,5% when I look at the recipe??? I think that is way too much in my opinion. I can raise a bread with yeast only with a total dough weight of 1,5 kilo and some 800 grams of flour by using only a third of yeast you're using and no sourdough starter. You're using relatively lots of yeast and a starter. No wonder this bread sort of explodes in your oven.