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Tartine Bread Fail :)

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mihaicph's picture
mihaicph

Tartine Bread Fail :)

Hi all,

My first post here ;)

I tried to make the Tartine Bread and i failed miserably :D

Here is the result :

The dough got way to sticky so i could not make the folds and when i took it out of the bowl all the air came out because it was sticky and hard to handle :(

The dough was sticky from the beginning and i was hopening that it would change but did not. I am guessing the reason was the flour used so maybe i am going to try again sometime.

I used this flour (danish) :

I used machine to mix the incredients and i used the oven (without turning it on) and a bowl of boiling water to keep the temperature high so the dough could develop.

The bread is edible but :

1. It's extrmely flat but does have big holes of air.
2. The crust was great when it came out. Became soft after putting it in a plastic bag as expected.
3. The taste is rather sour, i am guessing the starter was not THAT young as it should be and maybe the temperature was to high in the oven so i should have not left it for 3.5h. btw the temp  was around 35C. 

Anyway i had to share it and yes i have read the links about the sticky dough here. I will try some of the suggestions.

/mihaicph

 

MTK's picture
MTK

Get your hand wet...and make fully use of the scraper! Maybe you can post your recipe~>.< Putting a hearth bread into the plastic bread, the crunchy crust absords the moisture then becomes soft. Maybe you should store it in a paper back.

Try more and you'll success~

Mtk

mihaicph's picture
mihaicph

@mtk thank you for your comment.

I did use wet hands and a scraper but it was way to wet to handle in any way successfully. It was definitely not like this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGzfxvoR7qw ;)

I am using EXACT reciepe of the Tartine Bread from the Tartine Bread book. 

tracker914's picture
tracker914

Hi, Could you post your recipe that you used, also did it deflate after it came out of the oven or never spring while baking?

the flour that you used are they bread flours? What kind of protein content do they have? Also what kind of yeast did you use?

Angelo

mihaicph's picture
mihaicph

@tracker914

I used the recipe from the book (Tartine Bread) and used a relatively young leaven (8h). The bread never spring. They got very big in the baskets but because the dough was so sticky it was impossible to take it out without taking the air out of them so i pretty much knew from that moment that there were going to be like pancackes also because of the sticky dough it could not keep a shape when it came into the dutch oven.

I used Wheat flour (12g protein, the highest i found) and Whole wheat flour (pretty big grains).

 

MTK's picture
MTK

Maybe you should post the whole recipe or which recipe you used.  Actually the final result is affected by many factors, like ingredient, kneading the dough, gluten strength and development, fermentation, shaping, baking method...

mihaicph's picture
mihaicph

@mtk as i mentioned, it's the recipe that is shown in the book or here : http://www.marthastewart.com/907240/chad-robertsons-tartine-country-bread

 

gmabaking's picture
gmabaking

As I remember, the first two loaves of Tartine that I made were great and then, one that looked almost exactly like your pictures! I went over the procedures in the book and couldn't figure out where I had gone astray. So I tried again, and have made nice looking loaves for months since that time. There are lots of posts here on TFL, and references to videos by Chad Robertson which should prover helpful. Here is what I've found to be helpful. I find checking the temperature of the water is important.  The dough developed much better after I changed to a large bowl for folding because I think I get my hand further under the dough than I could with the dough in the bucket. Look at the pictures in the book and check the videos if you can, to see how wet the dough looks when it is first mixed. If you are wetting your hand when folding, you can add quite a bit of water. I am curious about the age of the leaven. You said 8 hours. Did you use a mature starter to set up your levain? Since you are building that levain with only a tablespoon of starter, it takes one that is "rising and falling at a predictable manner" (pg47).  In my winter time kitchen, it takes longer for the dough to reach the stage where the marks from folding last. I use All Purpose flour rather than bread flour . The step he describes on page 56, the bench rest, is an indicator about whether the dough is developed enough. If the puddles of dough after that that initial shaping don't have full, rounded edges there is a little more work to do, just shape into a round again which he says is like giving it an extra fold while in the container.

Wish you good luck, keep trying-

Barbra 

mihaicph's picture
mihaicph

ohh maybe i should also mention that my leaven DID actually pass the float test ;)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23580/basic-country-loaf-tartine-bread

I suspect with your warm conditions, fermentation went very quickly.  You might try generally shortening all the proofing/rise times.

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

What no crumb shot? :)

Oh, there it is!

John

mihaicph's picture
mihaicph

Ok so here is the result of the second attempt after the above :

Couple of issues :

  1. It's a bit too sour, i rushed a bit the second rise (idk if that's the reason)
  2. It's a bit gluey
  3. The crust is a bit hard (i like that but my wife wants it to be a little bit more soft)
Some more info :
  • At the time i made the bread the starter was 11 days old
  • The levain passed the float test
  • The first rise was 8h @ 18C (it did not smell sour)
  • The second rise was 2h and 15 min @ 28C-30C (i used the oven and some boiling water technique)
  • I used a dutch oven for baking @ temp 260C
Any ideas for 1-3 ?
mihai
Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Mihai.  I would have to say that perhaps you are rising too long in the first rise (this would account for some of the extra sour flavour) AND too long for the final proof (this would account for the gumminess and the overly sour flavour).  This bread is extremely temperature and time sensitive.  To avoid any more mishaps, I would follow the recipe word for word.  I learned that lesson the hard way a few times.  Then when I tried the recipes again the 2nd time but word for word, they turned out just as I wanted.  With the Tartine Country Loaf in particular, the only thing I did not do word for word is build the starter from scratch.  I just use a tbsp of my sourdough starter (that I keep in the fridge and use for all my bakes) for the levain.

If you don't have the book, this link shows step by step procedures:

http://www.marthastewart.com/907240/chad-robertsons-tartine-country-bread

Again, KEY ITEMS FOR THIS RECIPE ARE TEMPERATURE AND TIME.  Stick to them.

Good luck!

John

mihaicph's picture
mihaicph

Hi John,

Thank you for your reply.

Regarding the rise, the book says 3-4 hours by 25-28C and if the temperature is 18C it should be couple of hours more so i guessed my couple of hours became more :)

The final proof says 3-4h by 26-27C and i had 28-30C and the time was 2h 15m.

My problem is that it's hard to follow the book word for word if you don't have such temperatures so i need to adjust the timmings accordingly.

mihai 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Have you watched any videos of this bread being made?  You should go on youtube and type in 'tartine bread.'  Perhaps it's the techniques that need a bit of help.

The videos helped me when I was first learning this bread so good luck!

John

jcope's picture
jcope

WIth respect to the initial rise/bulk fermentation, I would translate a recipe that indicates 4 hours at 25C to be around 9 hours at 18C.  This is based on published data.  The source article is here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC106434/  but you can find simpler derivations on these forums.

breadandthebees's picture
breadandthebees

Hi, thought I'd share my Tartine Bread Fail as well. Funny how there are these gorgeous Tartine loaves and success stories, and then there are these...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

it says,  "I need to sit out to get really ripe and then get fed more flour so the yeast numbers can increase.  Please play the music loud and find me a warm spot for a few days."  

The dough is much slower than the recipe, no problem, just give it more time.  The extreme opposite of the original posted loaf on this thread. Needs to bulk proof much longer. Shaped too early.  The gas was just beginning to form and get trapped in the dough, look at the density of the dough between the bubbles.  With more folds and a longer bulk rise more bubbles will form and a lighter crumb will result.  The crumb shot resembles more the look of the dough when it first needs folding.  

Hey!  Your first post with the big round loaves!  You can do it!  Gotta rely on some instincts here even with these famous recipes. 

Meanwhile beef up the yeast in the starter.  The starter needs TLC first. #1 priority.  The crust will then take care of itself.  The bottoms look a little dark, what temp is the baking surface?

breadandthebees's picture
breadandthebees

Mini Oven, I just wanna come right out and admit that... I LOVE YOUR POSTS! There are a few people here whom I just love, love, love reading their posts and you're one of 'em.

Yes, the bottoms are dark -- the oven temps are at 500 degrees and the DO is on the lowest rack. Do I move the rack up one level? I turn the heat down to 475 after I take the lids off... about 25 mins later.

Thanks for the encouragement and advice. The second loaf came out much better. It was a whirlwind of a day so I didn't take a better pic but here it is. Unfortunately, my third loaf was also a fail. I think this time it is my shaping? I say this because I was really doing the "folding like a package" method. The other times I simply pull the outer edges into the center, flip over and roll it around in my cupped hands.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

or reduce the heat sooner, perhaps preheating to 450°F instead.  Different ways to go about it.  Depends on your oven.  I like to imagine the top of the finished loaf being dead center of the oven.  Then adjust the temp so the bottoms aren't burning before the loaf is done.  The upper crusts look very good so it's only a little tweak.  

So every other loaf is a keeper?   When folding, try stretching out the dough more if you can before folding.  Feel the bubbles pulling out and getting long and flat before you fold them over.  It is amazing that that simple extra stretching makes such a big difference.  :)    

I was watching a video on ceramics today, the artist potter was explaining that just to throw a pot on the wheel, it could be anyone's pot, but to make cuts into the clay to mark it's foot or leave a fingerprint or knuckle marks in the clay, makes a statement.  It says "I was here and I did that."    

:)

breadandthebees's picture
breadandthebees

Gotcha. Can't wait to make another batch. Funny you mention pottery. I was taking pottery lessons over the winter, BB (Before Bread). Then it got too cold in the studio to be enjoyable. The clay was hard and cold. So on a whim I thought I'd try kneading something else -- bread dough. Now I am hooked and haven't been back to pottery even though tis Spring!