The Fresh Loaf

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Where to find rye flour in NY?

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larpiainen's picture
larpiainen

Where to find rye flour in NY?

Hi everybody,
I am also new to this site, and sort of new to baking bread, in other words I haven't done it in a while.
I have an amazing receipe for some authentic Finnish sourdough rye bread (the black stuff, the REAL deal :) and I am itching to try it. However, I haven't been able to find any coarse rye flower, just that tastless, powdery stuff. Does anyone know of a place in NYC where I could find some? I would really appreciate any help. For a reward I can share the receipe :)

GreyStone's picture
GreyStone

larpiainen,

Try Whole Foods Market.
Should be in the bulk foods section
or they probably have the pre-packaged stuff
from Bobs Red Mill.

250 Seventh Avenue (corner of 24th Street)
New York, NY 10001
212.924.5969 phone
212.924.9923 fax
Open daily from 8 a.m. to 10 p.m.

sphealey's picture
sphealey

What you are seeking is probably labeled "pumpernickel" rather than "rye". Pumpernickel is the least-processed coarse grind of rye generally available.

You can also order it from bakerscatalogue.com. Note that most of the Bobs Red Mill products are processed in nut-free facilities (although you must check the label of course) whereas many other small flour producers' facilities are not nut-free.

sPh

larpiainen's picture
larpiainen

As I promised, I will give you the receipe for the Finnish Rye Bread if you want. Let me know, so I can start translating... :)

sphealey's picture
sphealey

I would very much like to see that receipe. I have been able to make both rye and pumpernickel successfully, but all the receipes I have turn out too sweet.

sPh

midwest bread's picture
midwest bread

As a Yank who lived in Finland for over a year I would love to get ahold of a good recipe for Finish Rye! Thanks alot in advance! -SMW

larpiainen's picture
larpiainen

Wow, nice to see that the good old Finnish Rye has a following! As a Finn living in the US, I have missed the taste for years and finally decided to attempt baking it here. This receipe is from a bread book from the 70's and at least the picture looks just like the stuff I grew up eating. Since it is a sourdough bread, the receipe consists of two parts: the "root" (is it called a starter in English?) and then the actual bread. The rye bread root used to be the most cherished possession a household could have, and it was passed on from generation to generation.
In the receipe they advize you to make your own root using either a few slices of sourdough rye bread (which in this case won't really work, since we don't have said bread yet! ;) OR a few sourdough crackers. This you can buy, at least in NY, under the brand name "Finn Crisps", they come in a red package with a Finnish flag on it. They are not quite as sour as the ones they sell in Finland, but should work just aswell.
So here goes the receipe (makes 2 loaves):

1 liter lukewarm water
10 gr. fresh yeast
2 slices of sourdough rye bread OR
3 sour crackers (in the US you should use 5 or 6, because the crackers are about half the size of the ones in Finland)
8 dl coarse rye flour (or pumpernickle flour as I was advized :)
1 table spoon salt
40 gr. fresh yeast
1 1/2 liters coarse rye flour

1. mix the 10 gr. of yeast into the lukewarm water and add the crushed sour crackers (you can easily crush them with a blender if you add a little water into it). Add some rye flour, until the mix gets a gruel-like consistancy. Cover the root with a clean towel, let it sit in a warm, draftless place over night. If you stir the root every once in a while, the sour flavor is heightened.
2. Next day, add the rest of the yeast mixed into a little bit of water and the salt. Add the rest of the flour, work the dough until it is smooth (aka not lumpy) and leave it to rise for about 1 hour.
3. Bake two round loaves in the following manner: cut a half of the dough and spin the piece on the baking table (which is covered in flour) so that it is a sort of an upright disc between your two hands. Your right hand should be gathering the excess dough underneath the bottom, while your left hand supports the smooth topside. Once you have the desired shape, turn the smooth left side on top and leave a "wrinkled" right side to be the bottom. (I hope this made sense. I would attach a picture of the loaf if I only knew how!) Let the loaves rise under a cloth. Save a piece of the dough in the freezer to make the root next time you bake. Every time you reuse the root, the sour flavor improves.
4. Once the loaves have risen, puncture holes on the surface with a fork and bake on the bottom level of the oven in ca. 440'F (225'C) for about 50 minutes. Let the bread cool down under a cloth.

I hope your bread will taste as great as it does in Finland! And sorry about my lack of proper baking terminology in English...

sphealey's picture
sphealey

What unit is the 8 dl rye flour measured in? Deciliter?

Thanks.

sPh

larpiainen's picture
larpiainen

yes, it is a deciliter. So 8 dl is 0,8 liters. Sorry about the European measures...

L

sphealey's picture
sphealey

No need to apologize - it was my lack of knowledge that generated the question. I just haven't seen recipes with flour measured in metric volume before; the European recipes in my collection are either grams or cups.

sPh

larpiainen's picture
larpiainen

Well, I finally got down to making the root tonight for my Finnish Sourgough Rye Bread. Tomorrow I will bake it and we'll see how it turns out! I found some stone ground rye flour and I am hoping it will work. The thing that puzzles me is that in Finland sour rye bread is always very dark in color; we even call it "black bread". Where does the color come from? It must be the flour. Most of the sourdough bread in the US seems to be light brown. What kind of rye is that made of? If this batch doesn't turn out right, maybe I should try the pumpernickle flour? If anyone has any advice, please share!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Here in China they call rye, black wheat.
So how many grams are 8dl rye? Just kidding, Thanks for the recipe. I just love the Internet!
Addition of molasses and/or cocoa can also makes it darker. Pumpernickle, is maybe darker because it is whole coarse ground rye and easily available in Europe. Don't let the color bother you, maybe the North Americans are afraid to use too much rye flour. Set your own Suomi standard! Maybe you want to add some spices, like crushed caraway and coriander seeds or even allspice or cardamon. Check out "Spices of Bread," Suomi :) Mini Oven

sphealey's picture
sphealey

Here are some conversion factors. I didn't put dl to g in there directly though.

sPh

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Actually I had no trouble with dl or deciliters because I could easily guess there was a measuring cup involved. My biggest problem is converting oz. And I know I'm not alone. One has to first decide if it is (dry) weight oz. or (liquid) cup oz. The two can be very different indeed. That's why I prefer grams. All hell breaks loose when dry ingredients are put into a liquid measuring cup and called just oz.

Example: I took a measuring cup and filled it with 10 oz of rolled oats. Then I put it on a metric scale, it weighed 165 gm. then I went to my conversion table and punched in 10 oz USA weight and it came out 283gm. That's a big difference! SO what is the point of all this? Only, lets be very careful with labeling oz. (ounces).

It would be very difficult to convert liquid dl to grams unless it was weighed directly. (That's why I wrote I was kidding.) There are measuring cups for dry weight. All around the cup are different scales for say flour, sugar, water, rice, pop corn, etc. but they can't match a scale. A standard metric "cup," I'm not sure exists. European recipes normally state either ml or dl. But even some are funny and ask for 1/3, 1/4 or 1/8 liter (suspect a wine glass). Most measuring cups are now labeled with both oz, cups, and ml (mililiters). I do know that the Australian, British, and American "cups" vary. I still use cups in some recipes and in others I use grams. It depends on my equipment, mix method, and how much I want to wash up. (Sorry about writing a book.)

Mini Oven :)

sphealey's picture
sphealey

I grew up measuring by volume using US cup, tsp, tbs, etc. I bought an iWeigh 5000 a few months ago and I do almost all bulk ingredient measuring by weight now (using grams wherever possible). I am still using measuring spoons for small qtys (such as yeast); the tradeoff for the 5kg capacity of the iWeigh 5000 was 1 gram resolution.
.
The disadvantage for the moment is translating the recipies that don't give weights. I need to set up a spreadsheet using the data from _Bread Bible_ for various flour types and multiply them out for various fractions and multiples of cups. Haven't done that yet, so I am often seen frantically jotting down numbers on the kitchen scratchpad.
.
I have never seen a definition of a "metric cup" either, but when I went looking for a good source for those conversion factors I found that and similar units listed. I would guesss that they are the same as one of the US or British units of the same names and exist just to end any arguments on that point.
.
sPh

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Could be. I know of a couple of recipes circulating for the past decade in Austria, called "cup" recipes or better yet "Becher" recipes based on the volume of a yogert or sour cream plastic "Becher." That would be either 200 or 220 or 250ml depending on amount purchased. ...With one becher this, one that, 1/3 becher oil, etc. using the cup, then rinse & throw into recycle.
About teaspoons and tablespoons, Austria uses Coffee spoons and Soup spoons. I measured my American measuring spoons with salt and sugar and came out with 1 tsp = 5 gm and 1Tbsp = 15gm The coffee spoons are smaller and soup spoons the same. Pkg or Packages is also a measurement and usually 15gm of baking powder, yeast, soda, vanilla sugar. If there is anything you think I can help you with let me know. These packages also very a little from country to country, even between Austria and Germany.

When I convert American Recipes to metric, I measure and then weigh, and like you, writing it down in recipe. The calculator is never far away. Of course some conversions are impractical, and get rounded off. Sometimes I have written at top of the recipe: 1 cup =250ml or 1 cup = 230ml And I have a few 3x5 cards with oven temp and ingred. conversions. On desserts and sweet breads/cakes, most salt is reduced to a pinch or eliminated, soda and baking powder are salty enough. (Which leads to another thought, since salt is not necessary, was this a yeast recipe converted to baking powder one and someone forgot to reduce the salt?)
Nuts in European recipes are fine grated not chopped and they are often added like flour. Bread crumbs are grated the same way. This leaves them light and fluffy. I hope I'm helping and not lecturing, I'm just sort of picking my brain here as I watch the 2nd rice crop grow.

We have a lot in common, I also grew up in the states. Mini Oven

sphealey's picture
sphealey

Quite interesting, actually. I worked for some years as a test and measurement engineer so I am fairly confident about my abilities in measuring and converting, but with cooking it is the unstated cultural assumptions embedded in the instructions that leave you scratching your head.
.
Add to list of things to do: take baking class in Australia.
.
sPh

rmk129's picture
rmk129

I agree 100%!!! As far as I can tell, here in Argentina measuring ingredients accurately does not have a very prominent place in cooking methods :) During my first months here, a friend asked me for a recipe for a loaf of bread I had baked for her, so I translated it all into Spanish with accurate measures for each ingredient and proudly brought it to her....she read it, looked at me kind of puzzled, laughed, and asked me if I had "one of those funny sets of big and small cups and spoons for measuring ingredients". She had travelled to the U.S. before, and apparently she thought it was hilarious to watch people use measuring spoons and cups! After I bought my first local recipe book, I realized why my instructions were so funny.
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Aside from some accurate weight measures, the most commonly used measurements are "cucharada" (tablespoon), "cucharadita" (teaspoon), and "taza" (cup)...go to any household and they will be able to show you which common spoons and drinking mugs they use to approximate these measurements. When my husband's cousin came over to our house, I went through my dishes with her and she showed me which ones would be best to use! In dough recipes, the liquid measure is almost invariably written as "agua, cantidad necesario" (water, necessary quantity)...hmmm...I guess you are supposed to know approximately how much this is from previous experience/exposure to the recipe :) Vegetable ingredients are almost never specified...it is simply 3 chopped carrots, 2 diced apples etc. And my absolute favourite are the oven temperature instructions: Horno suave, horno moderado or horno fuerte...I did manage to find in one of the indices of my recipe book that this is supposed to mean 120-150; 160-190; and 210-260. But good luck trying to adjust your gas oven dial to achieve these three different heat levels!!! :)
.
I must admit that living here has made me into a MUCH more relaxed cook :)

timtune's picture
timtune

Hi larpiainen,

Perhaps this website would be useful in describing the flour
http://www.dlc.fi/~marianna/gourmet/recipe.htm

Btw, i love those finn rye crispbreads, the ones with the hole in the centre...

Can i ask you for a favour? Do you mind translating this text, plz? :)

vesi, vehnäjauho, ohrahiutale ja -jauho 22 %, hiivaleipävehnäjauho, hiiva, kasvimargariini, suola (1,1 %) ja nostatusaineet (E 450, E 500).

thx

larpiainen's picture
larpiainen

no prob! :)

vesi, water
vehnäjauho, wheat flour
ohrahiutale, barley flake
ohrajauho, barley flour
hiivaleipäjauho (hiivaleipä is a type of Finnish bread, I think this flour is a mixture of wheat and whole wheat)
hiiva, yeast
kasvimargariini, vegetable margerine
suola, salt
nostatusaineet, rising products (other than yeast I guess)

hope this helped! Let me know if you have any question.
BTW, my breads are in the oven now! I am nervous... this is my first attempt ever!
I'll try to post pics later.

timtune's picture
timtune

Thx a million...hehe :)
It's so hard to find an online finnish to english elec. translator..

All the best! Keep us updated ;)

sadutar's picture
sadutar

Hiivaleipäjauho is made from the part of grain that's between the cord and the cover, and it has a lot of vitamins and minerals, or that's how I recall it. 

flourgirl51's picture
flourgirl51

We have certified organic stone ground rye flour for sale.


www.organicwheatproducts.com

Elagins's picture
Elagins

take a look at our website

Stan Ginsberg
www.nybakers.com