The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

recipe check please

  • Pin It
JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

recipe check please

Could i ask for someone to check the maths of the following recipe as i wondered if the sponge % was a little high.

John - The baking Bear.

 

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Sponge % by flour is 200/600, John

That's 33.3%

Best wishes

Andy

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

i was using the 400 of the sponge / 600 of the flour.

where did i go wrong?

J

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi John,

If your sponge is 400g and it is 100% hydration, then it is made up of 200g flour and 200g water.   The key to this part of a bread formula is to ascertain the amount of pre-fermented flour!   That is 200g out of a total of 600g flour in the formula.

Really, the % of pre-ferment relative to total flour doesn't tell us very much at all, as the amount of water used in the pre-ferment has a tremendousd bearing on how you can expect it to perform...as your previous post demonstrates.

Best wishes

Andy

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

Really, the % of pre-ferment relative to total flour doesn't tell us very much at all, as the amount of water used in the pre-ferment has a tremendousd bearing on how you can expect it to perform...as your previous post demonstrates.


Hello, I just thought I'd point out that expressing your starter as a percentage of the total flour is, in fact, the best way of expressing levain amounts in a formula.  It allows bakers to accurately predict generation-time and total fermentation time when creating new formulas.  Contrary to what you said, water has very little impact on the outcome of the starter condition compared to substrate type and availability, inoculation percentage, redox potential, and temperature, and so on. (Think of it this way:  A hard starter kept in the refrigerator has almost as much in common with a very, very wet starter in the same conditions.)  Water should be viewed merely as the dispersal agent for the levain microflora, as a mechanism for controlling fermentation quotient (the ratio of acetic to lactic acid), and as the means by which bakers control dough temperature.

I hope this could be of help.

ananda's picture
ananda

Hello Ars,

Excuse me for referring to conventions here, but my lead in using % pre-fermented flour in the formula comes from Mr Hamelman, and is the method also espoused by the BBGA as well, I believe.   As far as I am concerned, this is the more important factor, and your quote below suggests much the same, unless I read it wrongly.

Contrary to what you said, water has very little impact on the outcome of the starter condition compared to substrate type and availability, inoculation percentage, redox potential, and temperature, and so on

Whilst you choose to use difficult language to discuss what is an admittedly complicated subject, everything you write in your post tells me that the most important aspect is the amount of pre-fermented flour and not leaven

Best wishes

Andy

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

I think I know where I went wrong - I was really looking for "Levain % of Total".

I think what I should have done was taken the

("Sourdough sponge @ 100% hydration") / "total dough weight" X 100.

There fore (400 / 1008) x 100 = 39.68%

So I am well confused.

J.

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

Ananda, no, you are quite right to use traditional baker's percentagesbut it is helpful to know that both forms are conventional! You would probably be surprised by the number of BBGA bakers, especially those whose production requires a wide variety of pre-fermentation styles, who only utilise the OP's method for calculating their daily production sheets while using the method you described to express the formula in the daily mixing-quantities (it's quicker and easier to read while in production).  I just do not want to discourage OP from using the percentage of flour from the total flour first, as it helps him or her better predict the outcome of his or her bread.

Personally, I use both methods (as described above), and would encourage all bakers to do the same.

Sorry if my language seems confusing.  This is, quite honestly, the only way I know how to speak.

I hope this could be of help.

P.S.  Yes, you accurately summarised my previous post!  Basically, I try to teach (or un-teach, in many cases) the idea that water matters, but not really (i.e., its importance does not match the frequency with which it's mentioned by bakers).

ananda's picture
ananda

Hello Ars Pistorica,

I quite understand why you write in such a way; it's complex territory.

Being UK-based, I cannot pretend to have intimate knowledge of the work of individual members of the BBGA, but I am familiar with the emphasis placed on pre-fermented flour.   It seems like the OP is confused by his own posting as much as what either you or I have contributed to the thread.

But I do have this thought:

If I made the 1008g dough as posted by the OP, but using my 60% hydration leaven, then the pre-fermented flour would remain constant at 33.3% of total flour.   But the leaven would change from being 67% of the flour to being 53.3%.   And if we were to consider the additional comment of the OP, then the leaven changes from being 39.68% of the total dough to being 31.75%.   Hence my preference for concentrating on % pre-fermented flour when building formulae.

Best wishes

Andy

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

Hence, why we are in the same boat.  Happy New Year.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I believe the total flour is 600g, therefore 2% would be 12g.

Add up the flour from the starter to the flour from the recipe and then figure 2%.  :)

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

I really messed up the maths - the salt was at 12g - as you say 2% of the total flour then I changed it, because the maths said it was at 3% - DOH!!
Think I will just bake the bread today and look at the maths another day.

I still think the "Levain % of Total" weight ratio is high, but this recipe used to work so well.

I feel I have my starter and sponge maturation in a good place.

I just want to use that as a foundation for good final bread.

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi John,

This may be for another day somewhere down the line.   I'm sure Pat [proth] has posted this link before, but for any who missed it and want to investigate formula construction further, here it is:

http://www.bbga.org/files//2009FormulaFormattingSPREADS.pdf

Best wishes

Andy

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

i will have a look at it.

i have mixed up three batches of dough and they are having their final proofing.

Cheers

John

ananda's picture
ananda

Look forward to you posting more about these 3 doughs John

All the best

Andy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

flour added to fresh flour will give you faster fermenting times if all variables are equal.  So proofing times will be faster.  If you want slower rises use less fermented flour in the recipe.  It is not uncommon to see your amounts so that is why no one is being specific about too much or too little fermented flour in the recipe.  It all depends on what your goals are with the dough and when you want to bake it.

Now if you tell us you want it ready to bake in 24 hrs  (temp. 75°F proofing) with that much prefermented flour, then there is a problem with too much fermentation and something will have to be done to slow fermentation which gets exponentially faster with time.  

JOHN01473's picture
JOHN01473

I am trying to find a reliable recipe - 
I would like to be able to bake in 24hrs -
I am however happy building the starter and sponge in one day with an overnight maturation.

Then the next day bulk up, proofing and baking the next day.

Today I made three different recipes form the same sponge @ 100% hydration.

Any help is always welcomed.