The Fresh Loaf

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Cold Bulk Fermentation

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golgi70's picture
golgi70

Cold Bulk Fermentation

So Desired Dough Temps vary depending on the bread.  I am curious if there is a target DDT for a dough with a long (24 hour) cold bulk fermentation.  Currently I aim for a cool dough but would like to get a little more on point.  

.  I currently mix and go straight into the retarder, remove 24 hours later let come up to temp for 1-2 hours, shape/proof on floor (3/4 proof being the target) and then retard again for 12 hours.  Then it is baked straight from the retarder.  Most of my floor breads I like in the 73-75 range with Rye breads/whole grain breads on the higher end.  Anyone have any idea of what DDT I'd want for a dough like the such and why?

 

Happy Baking

 

Josh

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

This is a great question, and it is not one answered very often.  In order to better answer it, though, you should bear in mind that more parameters must be given, such as leavening amount, hydration, nature and quality of the flours, salt level, and so on.  Aiming for a desired-dough temperature is not only essential in establishing a controllable baseline for fermentation, but it also allows a baker to also influence the dough's rheology.  In general, though, I would say that twenty-four hours is probably too long, as the temperature profile and inoculant amount used for such times usually offer no real advantage to a room-temperature fermentation.  I would also try not using a retarding phase more than once in any given formula process, especially if natural leavening is involved.

To better answer your question, it might be helpful to state what your desired outcome is:  what sort of bread you might want to achieve, why you are retarding in the first place, and so on.

I hope this could be of help.

golgi70's picture
golgi70

Okay

first the info 

levain is roughly 25% of the total dough and a natural starter. 

salt is 2.2 %

hydration is 65%

the reason for long retarding is for sourness. This is a San Fran style sour and with testing 36 hours of cold fermentation hit the mark. I'm considering changing our method of 24 hours bulk fermentation then shape partial proof and 12 more hours of retarding before baking. I plan to do 36 hour cold bulk fermentation. then shape proof at room temp and bakthou before I do that which isn't the best for schedules I considered DDT and seeing if there is a perfect place to be. I think I'm aiming for a dough below 70 so it east activity goes dormant quickly and sourness goes to work.   

 

 

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

Well, I am curious by your process, as it does not seem to make sense to me.  Do you, firstly, find the resulting loaves desirable?  Before answering the DDT question, a few comments are necessary about retarding bread.  First, know your retarding temperatures, and their impact on the metabolic activity of your starter.  These can easily be found online.  This, when factored in with other inhibitory effects, will give you a good handle on the rate of fermentation, cellular-generation time, and so on.  Secondly, understand the way drastic temperature spikes change dough rheology, and usually for the worse, in my opinion.  For the home baker, I would advise the following, general tips regarding retardation.  Never retard in shape, unless using loaf-shapes that have a very high interior : surface area ratio, such as a round or bigger ovalur loaf.  Retard in bulk, but only after sufficient strength is developed at room temperature.  In general, best results for sourdough breads occur after 3 - 4 hours before retarding, and 1 - 2 hours for commercially-yeasted breads.  Divide, shape and rest cold, straight from the fridge.  Proof times are generally the same.

The most important consideration to know, though, is that the temperature during your bulk fermentation greatly affects the range of possible volatile aromatic compounds ultimately generated.  In general, temperature ranges for sourdough-related fermentation can be divided into five areas:  the low temperature at which no growth occurs; lower temperatures at which growth occurs (for the purposes of this discussion, usually those temperatures below 20 degrees Celsius); the optimal fermentative temperature range (20 - 30 degrees Celsius); higher temperatures at which growth occurs (over 30 degrees); and, finally, a high temperature at which no growth occurs.  There is only so much flavour (quite literally, usually measured in milligrams per kilogram) that can be produced, and the main factors affecting the type and quantity of these compounds include substrate type and availability, the composition of the culture's microflora, redox potential, and temperature.  The first three parameters have already been established by you:  the type of culture and substrates used (which, obviously, alters redox potential).  The last, however, you are still trying to determine.

I do no have the time to be very specific, so here's a quick thumbnail sketch.  There are only so many flavours a particular substrate can produce.  Think of the substrate (the medium you're inoculating) as a vending machine:  there are many flavours available, but only certain ones are expressed at any given time based on the person (culture) making the selection at the time.  You can even target certain target demographics depending what you stock the vending machine with.  Flavour is a funny thing, though, and the person buying stuff from your vending machine is going to make different choices based upon the weather.

So, just because a flavour compound is present, and even if the correct culture has been selected for, temperature still plays a key role.  Just as we watch the weather obsessively at home to figure out what to wear, one should also consider the impact of temperature changes on their particular culture.

Let's have a quick review:  the substrate, interacting with the microflora using that substrate, determine the type of flavour compounds that can be present at the end of fermentation, and these compounds are usually determined during bulk fermentation.  Temperature becomes an important factor because it can change the metabolic activity of the culture in a way that may alter substrate choice or interaction with, and this hence plays a big role in determining flavour compounds ultimately expressed.  Baking, here, is the key.

At the lower end of the fermentative temperature range, "darker" flavours are produced, regardless of culture.  Words often associated with these compounds include roasted, dark malt, burning and burnt, bitter caramel, fuel-like, and so on.  In short, the sort of tastes that more speak to be the baking process rather than to the fermentative or grain-type.  The moderate temperature range produces more tempered, rounded and balanced flavours, ones relating directly to both their yeast- and lactic-acid bacterial cultures, their grain (substrate) and the baking process.  At these mid-level temperatures, one will also find the greatest balance and concentration of volatile aromatics in the crust, with increased and more-rounded Maillard flavours, caramelised wheat (my personal favourite flavour in bread, and one of the most elusive, as it speaks of all three processes), as well as more compounds attributable to both yeast and bacteria.  Higher temperatures produce flavours described as sweaty, greasy, buttery, milky, malty, flatly wheaten, mild, rancid, with occasional fruit flavours (but in undesirable forms, as ethyl-acetate is perceived differently with increased ester- and lipid-based compounds, which are found at higher temperatures).

As a side note, the flavour compounds produced during these higher temperatures are also a one-for-one match for the same flavour-range possible from a starter kept in liquid levain.  The studies done on liquid levain show that it produces bread that, at its best, basically tastes just like direct-method bread but slightly better, breadier.  This is why American bakers, like Jim Lahey, scoff at liquid levain (it is very easy to use a hard starter at a higher temperature and a lower inoculation to mimic the end taste of liquid levain, but impossible to do the opposite), or also why other American bakers recently visiting France (Hamelman, Ponsford, the last Team USA) tend to be unimpressed by Paris' top-tier baguettes, including previous year's winners.  (The last ten year's worth of winners tend to fall into two fermentative camps:  deferred but direct-method fermentation, or liquid levain plus commercial yeast [the culprit behind most winners for the past five years]).

I do not know how you keep your starter, or what sort of flavour profile you're trying to achieve.  The one thing I would say, try to reduce the amount of starter to less than 10% of the total flour pre-fermented, give the dough more floor-time at room temperature, and try to aim for a DDT of 22 - 23.5 degrees Celsius.  Retard in shape, 4 - 8 degrees Celsius (yeast are inactive at this range; bacteria are not).  Or significantly increase the final inoculation to 30 - 33% of total flour, give only an hour of floor-time, and then retard in shape at 4 - 8 degrees Celsius.  I hope this could be of help.

golgi70's picture
golgi70

Sorry my previous post is sloppy.  Typed from my phone.  

Using the formentioned dough cycle works very well for me and scheduling.  I thought I'd find more consistency if I had a good target DDT to go off of.  

I'll play with that and if results are good I'll stay on track.  If not I'll switch to longer cold bulk fermentation and then shape and proof after.  That is opposed to retarding at two different stages.  

Regardless both techniques ask the same question.  What is a good DDT for a dough with a 24-36 hour bulk ferment.  

 

Josh

golgi70's picture
golgi70

Hello, 

Let me first thank you for your interest in my query and your informative response.  I am actually a Culinary graduate (Pastry Arts not bread) have been working with bread for the last 7 years professionally and am the manager of the bakery.  I share that so you understand I have to make bread approved by my managers and I am not just doing home experimentation.  That said this bread is well recieved and a very sour, sourdough.  It's right up the alley for those that like a strong sourdough (of the San Fransisco Style).  My problem is that I work in a bakery with moderate equipment and no temperature control (other than people closing/opening doors and windows to try to keep the room as consistent as possible).   This bread is inconsistent and with its long life and stages is handled by more than one person.  I thought nailing down a good DDT would help me to gain better consistency.

 Our retarder is consistent at about 40 degrees F  or 4 degrees C.  We currently mix and go straight into the retarder giving no floor time.  I do agree much trouble comes from removing the bulk ferment from the retarding, shaping proofing, and then retarding again.  I've attempted a change in the past to avoid this and it was not approved (I loved it but the people who matter preferred the latter).  The change I made then was to retard my levain for 12 hours after 4 hours on the floor skipping the cold bulk fermenation.  Then mix, shape, proof, and retard at the 4 hour mark for 12 hours.  It was deffinately different.  Not quite as sour but had a much more complex flavor that I preferred.  Once again I don't call all the shot.  The reason I made this change was the inconsistencies.  Back to the drawing board i went.  

We as a team organized and got our mix, times, shape, proof all alike.  It's been much better but still not consistent throughout the year.  So my next step is to find the proper DDT for our process.  At the same time I will attempt small trials where I bulk ferment for 36 hours instead of 24 hours and then shape, proof, and bake at room temperature.  I think I'll maintain the flavor profile this way but I believe some texture will change particularly the crust as it won't be baked from the retarder.  I know you believe that this is too long but I've done trials of cold fermentation to achieve the desired "sourness" and it does change from the 12/24/36 hour marks.  I'm sure there are even differences inbetween those times.  Maybe some of the volatile aromatic compounds are what make San Fransisco Sourdough what it is?  Maybe these "undesirables" became desirable?  You are much more studied in the deep scientific nature behind things and I find it fascinating and will continue to study.

So now you know where I am coming from and my 2 approaches to help fix the problem.  I will also attempt one of your suggestions if I understand you correctly.   I should use 10% of the flour weight in my levain of starter?  Currently its 20% and thats an easy change worth trying.  Or I could increase my total levain from 25% of total weight up to 33%.  The second option follows our process more closely with less floor bulk fermentation so I will try that first.  

finally you suggest a finished dough of roughly 73 degrees F and I wonder why.  That is my rough target for most floor doughs (74-75) and I thought I'd want it cooler so it came down in temp before exhauting itself.

Well thats all I have in me for tonight and I'm just about to be on vacation from bread.  This will be a number 1 priority starting next year and I'll let you know how its going.  

Happy Baking

Josh

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

I have no doubt your San Francisco-style sourdough isn't good, but, with that temperature profile during your bulk fermentation, there is a very limited range of flavours it will produce, most of which will be expressed in the crust. (Remembering that acetic acid and fermentation produces volatile aromas and lactic-acid fermentation does not, the acid-stress response by many heterofermentative sourdough bacteria at low temperatures really only produces acetate and not necessarily as the range of volatile compounds they would at the mid-level temperatures.) But maybe it's the bread you're looking for.  It's hard for me to comment on your production-timeline without knowing the mixing, shaping and then baking schedules, and, frankly, I'm sure you doing a great job. 

I'm sorry if my suggestions were not clear.  Rather than express the total amount of starters in my formulas, I use inoculation percentage.  This allows the baker to better predict generation time and amount needed, as well as be able to mark critical points on their fermentation timelines.

I hope this might help.

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

Please note the following correction to the above post.  What once read:

I have no doubt your San Francisco-style sourdough isn't good

Should actually read:

I have no doubt your San Francisco-style sourdough is good

I apologise for any unnecessary offense or confusion caused by this typo.

golgi70's picture
golgi70

Aecetic acid is what we were going for.  They produce a the sourness I was put on task to produce, hence going for a long cold bulk ferment.  As I mentioned we have toyed with other ideas, one of which I really liked and I think the reason is we did create some lactic acids and it balanced the bread more to my tastes.  But the loaf desired was that with a punch of sourness, somewhat open crumb not overly open (good for sandiwch making), and a crunchy crust (with nice red tones).  

Schedule of my bread:  

Our base culture (our MOM) is 100% hyrdration, 5% of the flour is stone ground rye, and when feeding our ration 2 parts water:2 parts flour:1 part culture.  It is fed once daily left at room temperature between 4-8 hours (pending the weather) and retarded.  

 

From that culture I build a levain at midnight.  100% hydration (12 hours at room temp)

Mix with 30 minute autolyse.  Divide into bus tubs, cover, and retard (so its getting nearly not floor time before retarding) (24 hours)

Pull from retarder and let sit for 2 hours to get the chill off.  Divide, shape into flour bannetons, proof (3-5 hours).  retard (12 hours)

Bake at 450 with steam for the first 15 minutes, finish in convection at 400 for 20-30 minutes (internal temp 204)

cool on rack.  

With that said I would really love to attempt your variations in small trials simply to see the results and understand the changes.  I think I understand what you suggested but could you possibly enlighten me further when you speak of using inoculation percentage opposed to amoutn of starter?  If it can be of help to me I'd love to understand further.  What I gathered from your suggestion "significantly increase the final inoculation to 30 - 33% of total flour" is my weight of my levain should be raised to 30-33% percent of the total flour correct?  If so I follow you.  This variation suggestion of yours has the dough headed to the retarder quickly which keeps my process most similar to previous and will be my first attempt to change.  

What kind of baking do you do?  You sound professional or at least very studied on the topic and I appreciate and enjoy this discussion.  You are a breadhead how long you been on tour?

 

Josh

 

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

If it's straight-up acetic acid you want, then that's easy.  First, start off by keeping your starter in as whole a grain as possible, preferably whole wheat, and one that is stone-ground.  Second, decrease hydration significantly, 55 - 65%.  Next, use a very high inoculation, above 30%.  Room temperature fermentation preferred.  Let time be the parameter that establishes the total acetate content.

To increase acetic-acid production, there are a few methods available to the baker, all that work great at room temperature:  accumulate and transfer the acid load to each new medium during the starter build, as mentioned above; select for a starter microflora that has an obligately heterofermentative bacterial culture and a high-acid tolerant yeast culture (this is the sort of culture Poilane uses, but keeps TTA low through constant six-hour feedings); add fructose (not recommended); keeping the substrates in as whole of a grain as possible; and, one most people ignore, adding oxygen.  Oxygenation of the substrate has the potential to produce as much, and even more, total acetate than additional fructose.  It's easy, too.  Increase substrate surface area, constantly.  If using a hard starter, tear it open regularly, say at one- or two-hour intervals for a bakery environment, and re-mix. At room temperature the Fermentation Quotient is awesome.

As for your dough, long bulk-fermentation and proof times can accomplish at room temperature in 8 to 10 hours what you're doing in 1.5 days.  Consider your dough management choice:  completely inefficient production-time, real-estate being occupied for 26 hours longer than it need be, and real-estate that costs your business owners more to operate per hour than any other electrical equipment in the kitchen.  There is also the considerable carbon-footprint.  Just a thought.

golgi70's picture
golgi70

Lets take a step back.  As I said I'm attempting to improve upon an already existing theme.  I do make a Poilane style sourdough that does achieve the same or maybe even more sourness in much less time using whole grains and never sees the retarder.  But I'm working on my San Fransisco Sourdough.  A well recieved and sought after loaf of bread.  I am simply trying to adjust my process to gain more consistency in size/proof.  The flavor profile is spot on.  I have made this same formula with zero retarding and it was not sour enough, I've done 12 hours not sour enough, 24 hours, not sour enough, 36 hours and "bing" we hit it.  Once again its a hands on process and not just a scientific understanding that gets you where you are going.  I've seen this technique used by others with great sucess so I'm not the only one finding this technique viable.  

As for your insult at the end.  With all of your knowledge and insight I'd think you'd follow the query much better.  I'm seeking based on my process (whether you find it a valid one or not) a good DDT for this dough.  In a paragraph of your many (interesting as it may be) paragraphs lied the answer I sought. 73.5 degrees.  In that same paragraph were two other bits of helpful info.   Your ability to read a question and answer it leaves one hell of a carbon footprint.   Are you a professional baker or a well studied enthusiast?  

Happy Baking

Josh

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

I'm sorry if any offense was taken.  I thought this was an open forum that encouraged ideas and exchanges about bread-related topics.  Nothing in my post was meant personally; it's merely meant for the discursive reasons of this site.

I only mention re-thinking the process because one can achieve the exact same results at 8 to 10 hours of room-temperature fermentation.  Yes, I have measured.  Most bakers I know, professional and home, can also do the same.  Sorry to cause offense.

You clearly seem to know what you're doing.

Cheers, and Merry Christmas.

Floydm's picture
Floydm

It is an open forum in the sense that bakers of all levels of experience are welcome here, ars, but the expectation is that if people are going to comment on posts those comments be respectful and helpful to the original poster.    

It is neat that you've found a technique that you are happy with that greatly reduces fermentation time and we appreciate you sharing it with us.  I'm sure some folks will give it a try, but lots of folks here enjoy baking with extended fermentation times and will continue to do so.  Please respect their decision to do so.

-Floyd 

Colin2's picture
Colin2

Unless there's a history here that I don't know, I've gotta say, I thought Ars P provided highly useful responses, ones that helped me think about retardation, and Josh seems to have a chip on his shoulder.  My feeling is that if someone goes to the trouble of writing you a detailed and thoughtful response, they earn the right to editorialize a bit.  Take what's useful to you.  Let the rest go.

And Floyd, on forums people make arguments.  Making an argument one way is not a lack of "respect" for the other way.  Personal comments are a problem, but you gotta be able to discuss questions.

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

Floydm, "open," "helpful" and "respectful" seem to be relative terms, then.  None of my posts have once been personal, nor will they ever be.  I am simply here for the sake of bread.  Second, I would be remiss, in an "open" forum, to not be "helpful" by pointing out what any good bakery professional would consider to be an illogical and inefficient process that does not make a difference to outcome, and to be "respectful" by sharing these thoughts in a direct, non-personal way.  fI would encourage him to look up traditional formulas, timelines, and temperature-profiles used in a professional bakery setting, both at the industrial scale and artisan as well.  There are generally three sets of temperature-profiles used, the coldest being the longest fermentation time.  None will generally surpass 18-hours of total retardation time, and most will have a total-production time almost half of his.

 As a note, Floydm, the baguette you are referring to was a "thought experiment," and implys nothing other than an answer to an off-cuff, rhetorical question.  There has never been a judgment here, on my part, on long fermentation-times

I am only interested in bread.  Infer, personally, as you wish.  I am only here to learn and share.

Merry Christmas.

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Ars: I'm interested in the community much more than the bread.  Really.  I'd much rather this be a site of kind, generous, and helpful but terrible bakers than great bakers who are disrespectful or dismissive of people who don't follow their leads or who bake using  "illogical and inefficient process[es]."  "Different strokes for different folks" and all that.   

We are fortunate that, for the most part, we've been able to have both: kind, courteous, helpful, non-judgemental folks many of whom are fantastic bakers.  I'd like to keep it that way.

You are new here and have come on very strong.  You are a knowledgeable and talented baker and will be a wonderful addition to our community if you can treat other folks -- even those whose processes you may abhor -- with courtesy and respect.  Please do.

Best,

-Floyd 

mariana's picture
mariana

Josh, DDT for San-Francisco sourdough bread dough is 75-78C (according to Michel Suas, Advanced Bread and Pastry).

In order to retard bulk fermentation for 24 hrs, let mixed dough bulk ferment at room temperature (65-70F) for 1 hr, then retard for 24-36hrs @ 46-54C (this is according to R. Calvel, The Taste of Bread).  Before shaping, bring its T back to 75-78F, i.e during bench rest in preshaped form. After shaping S-F style bread is proofed for 12-16hrs @48F at 65% rh.

 

best wishes,

mariana

golgi70's picture
golgi70

Thank you Mariana this is the information I was looking for.   The rest seems to follow my process.  Only difference is our retarder is 40F so after we shape we proof 3-5 at 60-70 degrees (pending the weather) and then retard overnight.  We deffinately havent brought our sour out of the bowl at such warm temps so I'll give it a try and see how it goes.  

Happy Baking

Josh

golgi70's picture
golgi70

 

This got a touch out of hand.  Ars I greatly appreciate your feedback and will take from it what I can.  I hope to share more thoughts via TFL with you and maybe we can learn from each other. I'm certain I can learn from you.  In fact I would love you to attempt my style of sourdough at some point so you can experience my forumula and process.  

I have taken some odd ideas and put them to use only to find them of great value.  My best example is that of holding out 10% of water in highly hydrated doughs and adding after you've developed the gluten in the rest of the dough.  Seemed crazy to break your dough and stir more water in.  I'm impressed with the quality of doughs I've achieved using this process.  I am considering experimenting with more doughs (even those of regular hydration).  Sorry ran off on a tangent.  I dig adding water late.  Bassinage? is what someone told me the technique is called.  

Happy Holidays and Happy Baking

I'm off to the east coat for a week.  See ya next year

 

Josh

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

To golgi70 and any other readers:  Any recommendations or comments on my part are just that:  recommendations and/or comments.  Disregard or ignore if you wish.  Additionally, it is likewise irrelevant to me if I, or anybody else, has the necessary credentials or experience as a prerequisite to posting such comments and/or recommendations.  It is up to the reader to determine what may be or may not be relevant to his or her life.

To piggyback on Mariana's post, I would caution against, firstly, combining two different formulas.  It is not enough to assume that a retardation time and temperature from one author (Calvel) will match up with the flours, inoculation percentage, fermentation activity, and so on, of another formula (Suas).  Calvel was not a great sourdough specialist, and his formula for this style bread is wickedly outdated.  Suas' formula comes in line with the rest of the "traditional" modern formulas out there:  a decently high inoculation, a moderately high dough-temperature coming out of the bowl, a longish bulk fermentation, and a retarded proof-time of the sort of length I outlined earlier.  Perhaps this is why I was perplexed earlier:  you mentioned your management's and customer-base's expectations (the "traditional" SF-style sourdough), yet the process you use will not match up with these expectations.

I hope this could be of help.

 

 

 

golgi70's picture
golgi70

If you read closely opposed to inform me of the dangers associated with my process you'd understand two things. First off this recipe is loved by both management and customers. Secondly this process that you don't believe in is working and the reason behind the bread being what it is.  I know you don't intend to be but you are very insulting in your posts. I was l looking for a tiny bit of info and finally got a nice starting point from Marianna and you bashed it.  using black magic this process works makes great bread and is actually quite efficient for the business. if you ate willing try it and see for yourself we can talk more on this matter. Otherwise your assistance in this thread is thorough and no longer needed. 

 

happy new year 

 

josh

 

 

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

Anyone have any idea of what DDT I'd want for a dough like the such and why?

 

Again, let's be clear:  Mariana's post is helpful by providing relevant data points, but she did not post the Suas formula.  I know both of these formulas very well, and I am sure you do as well.  They are very different.  You cannot take the DDT from one and then tack it onto another, and thereby expect the same, or even similar, results.  It was more a word of caution, not bashing.

None of your posts include your inoculation percentage, which makes measuring temperature irrelevant.  This might help forum members give better or more specifically-tailored advice.

Also, have you answered your question:  Why?

varda's picture
varda

A.P,   People on TFL ask for help and then other people try to help them.   When the person who asks for help tells you to stop, that is when to stop, or perhaps quite a bit earlier.   In this case, you answered a question not asked, which as a poster always irritates me.   In fact when people do that, I often don't respond at all to them, it irritates me so much.  

The way you might go about imparting your wisdom is to make your own posts which get across the ideas you are trying to get across.   I for one would be extremely interested in what you have to say about how to make bread sour.    Note that I was also extremely interested in some of Josh's earlier posts and comments about how to do this.    At this point,  though, I would be extremely anxious to see that you had responded to one of my own posts - especially to a request for help - because you just keep hammering away at it.  

My recommendation for maximum happiness - make your own posts, and hold off on commenting for now until you are better known and understood on the site.    This is after all a social community and not a license or certification granting authority.    

ars pistorica's picture
ars pistorica

You just need to stop commenting

Thank you for the thought.

When the person who asks for help tells you to stop, that is when to stop, or perhaps quite a bit earlier.   In this case, you answered a question not asked, which as a poster always irritates me.   In fact when people do that, I often don't respond at all to them, it irritates me so much.

Perhaps the poster is not asking the right question, or framing it in the right way.  Or maybe the question asked is not even answerable.  In this case, though, I believe the question asked should really lead to a series of other questions, and, that is, why is my bread like this, and how to I increase the parts I like while decreasing the parts I do not like? (I.e., the bread being made has certain expectations; the poster is asking questions about his or her process, meaning he or she is trying to further pinpoint what it is in his or her process that will help meet, and then exceed, these expectations; and the underlying question, as asked [and thus far answered] will not necessarily lead him or her any further to the truth he or she is seeking, just further, and most likely in a random direction]).

This is after all a social community and not a license or certification granting authority.

I could not agree more (see above post about irrelevance of qualifications), and hence why the onus for determining quality of content falls to the reader.

hanseata's picture
hanseata

Theory is one thing and practice another.

Much as I'm interested in why something works - if something works, it does work (even if, theoretically, it shouldn't). I bulk retard all my doughs, since it's more practical for me and my schedule. And the result? My breads fly off the shelf, and people complain when they come too late and everthing has sold out.

Happy baking,

Karin