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Rye Bread Recipe of HarryGermany

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CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Rye Bread Recipe of HarryGermany

Rye Bread of Harry Germany

My thanks, as always, to Harry.  Harry says this is going to be easy so since Country Boy loves easy; it sounds like a great recipe for me. However, I have 3 questions on the recipe that I have pasted below:

The 3 questions: 

1-When Harry says: type 1150 rye flour => "medium" rye flour (though I use whole-meal rye successfully. Just make sure that it's milled fine) I am a bit confused.  Should I sift the whole grain rye?

2-Do I make special allowance for the butter milk?  That is, will the sour in the buttermilk do stuff that I should compensate for?

3-Do you scald that buttermilk? 

The recipe is as follows:

Hi all,
yesterday I finished a rye-wheat bread with 80% rye flour and 100% hydration.
I followed the thread above and thought that the recipe of that absolutely easy to make bread would be interesting for you.
To realize the recipe you need buttermilk, and that is the point where I do not know whether you can get it.
The bread is exactly what CountryBoy was looking for: chewy but light.


One with German background probably can "translate" the German flour types into US flour types.
@ goetter: Also probably interesting for you. TA 200 "freigeschoben" !
Harry
Rye-wheat bread 80/20 with buttermilk
===============
hydration 100%
Ingredients:  Please note that conversion to cups is by Country Boy
650 g or 2.827 cups of  rye flour (German type 1150)
165 g or 0.718 cups of wheat flour (German type 550)
815 g or 3.545 cups of buttermilk
20 g or 4.215 teaspoons  of salt
1 pouch (7g) 0.492 Tablespoons of dry yeast
* Mix all ingredients, knead for 7 minutes by machine, let dough rest for 20 minutes.
* Knead and fold dough just 2-3 minutes by hand. Give dough a rough form.
* Let dough rest for 10 minutes.
* Shape dough with giving it a surface tension. Put it in a bread basket and let it rest until volume has minimum doubled (ca. 120 minutes).
* Put loaf on baking sheet with baking paper, wet loaf surface with wet hands.
* Start baking with 480°F for 20 minutes.
* Finish baking in 60 more minutes with 390°F.
Note: type 550 wheat flour => white bread flour
type 1150 rye flour => "medium" rye flour (though I use whole-meal rye successfully. Just make sure that it's milled fine)

Thanks again Harry.

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hi CountryBoy,

I'm not sure that I can answer your questions properly.
Bad knowledge about English language and about your non-standardized US flours.

1. If you can get "medium" rye flour, take it.
Otherwise I would sift the whole grain rye.

2. There is nothing to compensate for.

3. Buttermilk with ambient temperature.

Harry


---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Harry, Many thanks....

Just curious, from the picture you posted in the original recipe it looked as if you had a professional bread cutter there.  Are you a professional baker? You seem to know what you are doing.

While on the topic of rye bread may I ask you a question re another rye recipe?  It is as follows:

Klosterbrot

  • enriched wheat flour   
  • spring water
  • rye flour
  • sourdough   
  • salt
  • yeast
  • dry cultured  whey
 My question concerns the whey.  Are you familiar with whey and is it used often in Germany?  I have been working on this recipe for a long time...

PS: I don't know the Enlish language any better than you.  You sound find to me.

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hi CountryBoy,

no, I'm no professional.
This kind of bread cutter is rather often used over here.

With the whey: Yes, I'm familiar with it.
It is not realy used often, but some people drink it because it is said to be healthful.
We usually don't get the dry version.

About the spring water in your recipe above: I think any other clear water will do as well.

Harry

---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Ok Harry, I went and did it.....I baked the rye bread loaf and it is cooling now.

Since it is only my first time on this recipe I won't beat myself up too much but my results are a bit brick like, not totally but certainly more brick than I would have liked. 

It had very nice oven spring at the oven temp you specified for the first 20 minutes but then it dropped and became a bit brick like.

My guess is that it could use some more yeast.

Also, please tell me what consistency the bread dough should be when it sits for the 120 minute rising.  I realize that rye dough is different from other dough.  Just how fluid and tacky should it be?

Many thanks.

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hi CountryBoy,

the dough is rather soft. You can't and shouldn't touch it hard.
But it is far from being "fluid" !!!
That means if you have it without a basket or a bowl, it should keep its form (more or less).

The 120 minutes rest is just telling a number. Not the number of minutes counts, but the rise of the dough. Maybe the volume has doubled after 60 minutes, maybe after 180 minutes. The doubling of volume is important, not the time.

If you have the loaf in a basket or a bowl, let it roll or drop gently on the baking sheet. You can cushion the rolling with the palm of your hand.

Good luck for the next try.

Harry


---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

So any guesses as to why it got good oven spring in the oven during the first 20 mins. and then became brick like? 

Does that mean I did not knead it enough to develop the gluten or put in enough yeast?

The ratio of 650 g of rye flour to 165 g of wheat flour makes me want to add some gluten to give it some back bone..... 

  Sorry 'bout that....

KipperCat's picture
KipperCat

If your loaf were all wheat, I'd say that  the rise and then fall indicated that the dough was over-proofed. Now that I read you were short 1 Tbsp of yeast, I wonder if  the yeast could get worn out just by doubling the dough. Can anyone chime in on this theory?

I am totally out of my league when it comes to understanding rye, so I am following your progress avidly with this bread. I was blown away by the pictures that HarryGermany posted.  I didn't expect a loaf with so much rye to look that good.

goetter's picture
goetter

If the rye loaf rose, then lost its rise, then you didn't have enough heat initially in the oven.  Rye dough doesn't retain gas very well, so if it doesn't set sufficiently quickly, all the gas from the leaven's final hurrah leaks out of the dough, and the rise comes crashing down.  You initially want a very high heat (475F) to push the dough up all at once and set it, then a much lower heat (say, 375F) for the prolonged remainder of the bake.  Initial steam or a moist loaf top seems to help, too.

Disclaimer: I have more experience with 100% rye loaves than 80/20 mixed-breads like this.  Maybe there's a different dynamic here.

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Goetter, I checked the oven heat prior to putting in the proofed dough and that it was definitely at 480 degrees, that Harry suggested, and that  temp was confirmed by an oven thermometer that I know to be correct.  I do not think it was the lack of heat.

I am ordering special medium rye from King Arthur today and will give this recipe another shot.

My own guess is that I was deficient in yeast due to conversion problem I made and so was down by 1 tablespoon too little.

I have no doubt that if someone else tries this recipe with their scales that it will be magnificent and I thank Harry once again for sharing it with us.

 

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hello goetter and CountryBoy,

with the 20% wheat it is a bit easier than with 100% rye - that's all.

And maybe the dough was over-proofed.
As long as you can watch the loaf rise, everything is fine. But if the rise slows down so that you can't see it any longer, then it is time for the oven!

So it is to watch two things at the same time: Has the volume doubled and is the dough still rising. If the dough definitely is not rising any more, the volum increase doesn't matter. Then bake the loaf.

You  definitely do not need more yeast if your dry yeast is the same like ours. Goetter might know.
But if it makes you happy you can take a little more - no problem.

Harry



---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

In the recipe where it says:

  1. Shape dough with giving it a surface tension. Put it in a bread basket and let it rest until volume has minimum doubled (ca. 120 minutes). 

Now P. Reinhart says ya gotta remember to always knead rye bread every hour.  But it is not specified in this recipe. And we all know Not to over knead rye bread.

Harry, Someone?, what is the right thing that i gotta do?  There is only one Knead and fold called for in the recipe?  Thanks.

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Harry, thanks so much for your very quick response.  Most appreciated.  8-)

1) My situation is this: I put my dough into a baking pan.  So, if I let it rise twice without folding it will go over the edges and be a problem.  Should I separate the bread into two pans and then let it rise twice?

2) Are you sure about the baking times and temps for this bread?  It seems a very high temp to bake rye at?  You are the teacher and I am not questioning your wisdom but possibly the technology there for ovens is different.  You say:

* Start baking with 480°F for 20 minutes.
* Finish baking in 60 more minutes with 390°F.

Over here, the general range of 375 degrees is mentioned in the books.  They figure longer at a lower temp.

I am only the student and do not know the answers; just asking.



 

harrygermany's picture
harrygermany

Hello CountryBoy,

no idea why Reinhart talks about kneading rye bread every hour. It doesn't make any sence to me.
After putting the loaf into the bread basket just let it rest until it has doubled. No more kneading.

Harry


---------------------------------------
Everyone is a stranger somewhere -
so don´t give narrowmindedness or
intolerance no chance nowhere.

Robb's picture
Robb

Hello all,

I would like to thank Harry very, very much for posting your 80/20 buttermilk recipe. I baked a loaf the other day and cannot stop eating it.

Harry this is hands down the best Klosterbrot l have ever eaten, and this being my first try at rye bread, l can't wait to see how good it gets when l get used to working with such a wet and sticky dough.

l was very surprised at how close to dimpflmeier's klosterbrot this loaf was, it has the smell, taste, colour and texture. But l can assure you that l have never purchased a loaf of dimpflmeier's that is as moist and fresh as my first loaf. l am also stunned that this recipe can produce such a wonderful flavour without using a sour dough starter.

Which brings me to my question Harry, do you have a recipe for this 80/20 rye using a sour dough starter?

FYI in Canada it seems we have only two choices of rye flour, dark or light. Light is what l used and the colour and texture seems to be the same as dimpflmeier's.

One last observation, for those of you out there having troubles with the wet dough, it seems rather manditory to use a basket (bannetons) to proof the dough.

Best regards,

Robert

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Hi,


I'm very interested in this bread but I'd like to know what kind of buttermilk is required:


-the old-style one obtained as leftover after the separation of butter from  milk-cream?


-or the cultured buttermilk that is thick and looks like yogurth?


 


Thanks.

CanuckJim's picture
CanuckJim

Harry,


Mein Deutch ist nicht so gut, apologies for that, very, very rusty.  Could you clarify the amount of yeast, please?  7 grams seems like an awful lot, and it does not seem to compute to half a tablespoon.  In North America, the small pouches of instant dry or active dry yeast contain 2 1/4 teaspoons.  I'd really like to master this one.  Thanks for the recipe and the help.


Robert,


I live near Toronto and am aware that supermarkets and most outlets offer very limited choices in rye flours.  However, if you deal with trade suppliers, the choices broaden rather quickly.  Don't know where in Canada you are, but send me an email and I'll give you a list of people I deal with in the GTA.


CJ