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Tutorials Needed on Shaping Rye Breads

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Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Tutorials Needed on Shaping Rye Breads

I will be attempting my first rye bread tomorrow.  I have searched the internet, trying to find some video tutorials on making rye breads and found very little out there compared to sourdoughs, etc.  Tuorials helped me a great deal when trying sourdough, multi-grains, ciabatta breads for the first time.

Does anyone have any photos, videos that can help me in the shaping process of this particular type of rye bread?  Below is the recipe to give an idea of how wet/dry the dough I will be working with:

German Mischbrot (Mixedbread)

Here the recipe : Mischbrot 30/70 (30%Rye / 70% Wheat/Bread flour) . 2 loaves 860g. Color of the bread will be brighter if you will use medium rye or darker if use dark rye flour.

Sourdough: ripen for 14-18 h at 21°c/70°F

Medium Rye or Dark rye(better medium)......  160g (100%)

Water...... 128g (80%)

Rye Starter (100%)....... 8g (5%) If you like more sour taste use 10% starter (16g)

Total weight ...... 296g

 

Final dough:

Bread flour...... 700g

Medium rye(or Dark rye)...... 140g

Salt....... 21g

Fresh yeast....... 22g

Water....... 540g

Sourdough....... 296g

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

percent of rye.  I haven't calculated the hydration of this dough but assume it is pretty high if it is to work well.  You won't find high percent shaping for rye since it is a paste and requires no shaping, in the the pan it goes and smooth out the top is it.  With 70% whole wheat, you probably want to look for a high Whole Wheat %  tutorial instead or possibly shape it like a ciabatta in a pan as mini oven says, and she taught me so well, if its over 80% it probably belongs in a pan shaped as a loaf as best as possible

 :-).

Mirko's picture
Mirko

Hi John,

this recipe has only 67% hydration. Just baked this bread yeserday (4 loaves). Its very nice dough to work with.

Rye breads with higher rye content (50% or more) have higher hydration (75-85%). In this case you have to work with water

instead with flour (wet work bench, hands....)

Good luck

Mirko

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Mirko, this is the exact recipe you shared with me a few weeks ago.  I am finally going to try it tomorrow.  Today I started with the sourdough levain.  It has been sitting since 1pm in approx. 68 degrees and will continue to ripen till 6 am tomorrow. I am a bit worried as I have no idea how to handle the dough.

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Mirko.

I just mixed the dough and am autolysing for 40 minutes.  My dough looks like this:

Am I on the right track so far?

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Hi Mirko.

I just mixed the dough and am autolysing for 40 minutes.  My dough looks like this: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20886/bds-quotbaking-deprivation-syndromequot#comment-146353

Am I on the right track so far?

John

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thanks guys, but I am still a bit confused as I have never even seen a rye bread get shaped.  I saw one video on about.com 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ms4qOOYfR0I

The dough looks (for lack of better description) quite rediculous.  The dough looks very dry, almost like gingerbread dough.  The shaping was more like a bunch of stiff folds.  Are you guys saying that this recipe dough will be slack/wet or dry/stiff? Any photos of the process?  Maybe that will help me understand it a bit better.

John

LindyD's picture
LindyD

There's a vast amount of information at TFL, and a few true rye experts.  Hansjokamin is one and his blog is always worth reading.

Perhaps this link will be of some help to you:

  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/22773/rye-bread-tips-and-tricks-applied

 

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thanks for this Lindy.  I did take a quick read a few weeks ago but some photos/videos would help a bit more.  I am more of a visual learner.

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)  Shaping techniques the same for wheat, keep your bench scraper handy.  Don't let any wet flour dry on your equipment and clean up is easy with a brush and/or veggie nets and cold water.   You'll be just fine.  You might lightly oil your hands and tools first before using until you get the hang of it.  Careful not to work too much flour into the dough while kneading, be fast and use your finger tips more.  

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thanks for the tips Mini.  As Mirko's recipe does not call for any hand kneading, I will not have to worry too much about the stickiness - thank god.  I can't stand working with sticky doughs.  I do not have the proper work bench and tools to make it work.  The recipe just calls for mixing and dough hook mixer:

Add all ingredients to mixing bowl. Mix on first speed 8 min. and 2 min. on second speed (I don't know wich type of Mixer you have, so your's mixing time will be somewhat differently)

DDT: 26°C/78°F

Bulk fermentation: 30 min.

Divide into 2 egual parts (about 860g) and shape into desired form (I shaped into oval form and let ferment in baking pans)

Final fermentation: about 60 min. at 28°C/82.4°F or even  long at cooler tempereture.

Baking: pre-steam your oven, load bread and bake at 450°F/230-240°C for 40-50 min. Remove steam after 10-15 min and bake in dry oven. To have nice crispy crust bake last 5 min. with open door (use tablespoon to get 1 inch open).

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hello John,

There are several tributes up for Eric Hanner within the "Recent Posts".   You should look at these, as the loaf in question is 30/70 [Rye/Wheat].   I recommend you aim for c.70% overall hydration, then you don't end up with the "ridiculous" example you cited in your post above, but, the dough will have enough strength to shape up nicely as Mini has advised.

Lindy is right; there are a lot of "rye fiends" here on TFL, and a wealth of knowledge to be gleened if you search through what already exists.

Wishing you every success

Andy

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thank you Andy.  I have spent the last day and half sifting through all the helpful posts from the past rye bakes.  Again, I learn quicker by visual.  I just wish there were more photos/videos of the rye dough processes out there and particularly the type of rye I am attempting to make.

I have to start mixing the dough in 1 hour.  I am afraid....very afraid. :)

John

ananda's picture
ananda

Hello again John,

30% rye is considered fairly low, so the dough should bear the hallmarks of a wheat dough to a significant extent.

I'm struggling with your reticence to deal with stickiness.   Flour and water paste is the original glue.   You will just have to get over this one some day soon, I suggest!   It's really no big deal

Dough is sticky when first formed...and in the case of high rye...always sticky.   Celebrate that and enjoy it

Best wishes

Andy

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Andy, I just meant that I am not set up at all for very sticky doughs.  Not the bench top, not the clean up, not the tools.  Eventually when I get a work bench that is more suitable for doughs, I will have a better time with it.  I have a countertop that if looked under a microscope, would look like the surface of the grand canyon.  Don't get me wrong, the wetter, more slack doughs are some of my favourite breads, just wish I had either a stainless steel or wood work bench.

One day :)

John

 

suave's picture
suave

Dough is sticky when first formed...and in the case of high rye...always sticky

That is only true if you think that giving rye the maximum amount of water it can take is the only way to make it.  In my experience (relatively) non-sticky rye dough is nothing extraordinary, and really more of a norm if you bake hearth breads.

ananda's picture
ananda

How about this John?

Never touches the counter!

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20886/bds-quotbaking-deprivation-syndromequot#comment-146353

There used to be a video on the Bread Matters site, but it's no longer there I'm afraid.   Think concertina!   The only other thing you really need is a plastic scraper.

Best wishes

Andy

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Andy.

From what I read on previous tutorials here from Mini and the like, I will be shaping the dough in the air.  Also, just as a note, I am now in autolyse for 40 minutes and the dough consistency resembles the dough in the photos in the link you provided above.  Hopefully I am on the right track.

Thanks again for your support in this.

John

Mirko's picture
Mirko

Here some pitures from my last baking (Friday):

As you can see on the picture dough is not sticky (cleanup stage). I hope you got good results.

Mirko

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Thank you for the photos Mirko!  I feel more at ease now because so far my dough looks just like your photo.

I will be free forming the loaf and baking without a loaf pan.  I will post all my photos after the bake.  Thanks again for your help.

John

hanseata's picture
hanseata

That formula has only 30% rye, and then you are, perhaps, even using medium rye - so where is the big bad wolf? There is so much gluten in the 70% wheat that you can knead, proof, and shape it just like any other ole dough.

Bauernbrot, aka Mischbrot, 33% dark rye.

 Karin, aka Rye Hard

Song Of The Baker's picture
Song Of The Baker

Karin.

I agree with you....now :)

I baked it and posted the results under a more recent forum post.  The process was not at all difficult, just different.  I have only been baking bread for about 3 months now, and still get worried when I try out new types.  It worked out and I'm happy.

John

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

or ...Do you now see it?   (with an encouraging smile)   

Happy to see you jump over your shaddow.