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Greenstein's Corn (rye) bread

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dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Greenstein's Corn (rye) bread

Greenstein's Corn Bread is the ultimate Jewish rye, and it is unique in the technique with which it is made. The ingredients are the usual - rye sour, rye flour, common flour (AKA first clear flour), yeast and caraway seeds. And water. The crust is glazed with a corn starch/water mixture.

 What's unique (to my knowledge) is that this dourgh is essentially saturated with water. It is highly hydrated in mixing. It has just enough substance to be called a dough, and it does develop gluten stretchiness. It must be manipulated with frequently wetted hands. After kneading, it is fermented submerged in water, then shaped ... Kinda ... into rounds. The bench must be kept wet for this to work at all.

 This dough is not slack. It's not sticky. It's downright sloppy! It sticks to a peel, no matter how much polenta you put on the peel! Parchment paper is a loaf-saver! It's baked at a lower temperature than most hearth breads 350-375 degrees), but for a long time. These loaves baked for about 1 hour and 40 minutes, plus an extra 15 minutes on the stone with the oven turned off but the door kept closed.

 So, why bother? Because it is absolutely delicious. That's why. It has a crisp crust (if you bake it 15 minutes longer than you can believe is possible) and a crumb that is both tender and chewey. The flavor is just like good Jewish sourdough rye, except more so. Did I say it tastes really good?

  Greenstein's Corn Bread

Corn Bread: Greenstein's Corn Bread

Corn Bread

Corn Bread

Corn Bread crumb

Corn Bread crumb

Corn bread slice

Corn bread slice

David

Trishinomaha's picture
Trishinomaha

I haven't attempted rye yet but these photos may tempt me to give it a try. Where might I find the recipe?

 Trish

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

Trish,

It's in Greenstein's Secrets of a Jewish Baker book.  I found a copy of it waiting for me when I got home this weekend!  Sort of a "welcome home" gift from my wife.

I just read that recipe (and others) last evening.

PMcCool

ehanner's picture
ehanner

This looks interesting David. Could you post the recipe and method you used for this?

Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric,

Let me know if it is still "interesting" after you've read the recipe! ;-)

Greenstein's Corn Bread

(With minor editorializing by DMSnyder)

 

1 1/2 cups warm water

1 1/2 packages active dry yeast (1 1/2 T) or 1 T instant yeast

1 1/2 cups rye sour

1 1/2 cups rye flour

2 cups common (first clear) flour

1 1/2 T salt (I use 1 T, and it's plenty salty.)

2 1/2 T caraway seeds

 

More rye and common flour, if necessary. See below.

 

Coarse cornmeal for dusting baking sheet (I recommend using parchment paper to transfer loaves to a stone, if you use one or to line your baking sheets.)

 

Cornstarch solution for glazing. (2 T cornstarch dissolved in 1/4 cup cold water, then stirred into 1 cup boiling water and whisked until thickened)

 

Mixing

Proof yeast in warm water, if using active dry yeast. Otherwise, just add yeast and water to other ingredients.

 

In a large bowl or the bowl of a stand mixer, combine yeast, water, rye sour, flours, salt and seeds and mix until well combined.

 

If hand kneading, transfer dough to a wet bench and knead (stretch and fold) for 5 min. or until gluten is developed well. Keep hands wet and use a scraper to gather the dough. You may have to add rye and common flour, but keep in mind, the wetter you can keep the dough, the better the bread will be.

 

If using a stand mixer, mix on medium speed for 5 minutes. Scrape down periodically if necessary. If a ball doesn't form, add flour, but don't expect the dough to clean the sides of the bowl.  (Add as little flour as possible. I have had to add about 1/2 cup of flour while kneading in the mixer, generally. I try kneading longer with brief periods at a higher speed before deciding I need to add flour.) I then transfer to a wet bench and stretch and fold with wet hands and a scraper until the gluten is well-developed.

 

Transfer the dough to a wet bowl, pat it down and film with water. (The dough is submerged in water.)

 

Fermentation

Let rise to double. 45-60 minutes (or longer if the room is cool).

 

Preheat the oven to 375 F and put in a pan for steaming. (Leave enough time to preheat your stone, if you use one. I start the oven 1 hr. before I'm going to bake.)

 

Shaping

Drain off the free water. Transfer the dough to a wet bench. Form one large or two smaller boules by gentle smoothing the top down, turning the boules in the usual manner, pinching the seams. (Very gentle handling. This wet, sloppy dough will indent from any finger pressure at all.)

 

Dust a parchment lined baking sheet or parchment (for transferring with a peel) with coarse corn meal, scoop up the loaves very gently and place them on the dusted surface. Smooth the loaves again, if needed. Gently flatten the tops.

 

Sprinkle more caraway seeds on top of the loaves (optional) and brush with corn starch solution.

 

Immediately transfer loaves to the oven. (You do not proof them!) Pour 1 cup hot water in the steaming pan and shut the door.

 

Baking

Bake 5 minutes. Remove the steaming pan. Take out the loaves. Dock the loaves with a docker, ice pick, skewer or whatever - 10-12 holes scattered over each loaf. Brush again with the cornstarch solution, and replace the loaves in the oven. Turn the oven down to 350 F.

 

Bake for another 10 minutes. Remove the loaves. Dock them again. Brush them again. Replace the loaves in the oven.

 

After 20 minutes or so, check for even browning and rotate the loaves if necessary.

 

Continue baking until the crust is hard, thumping the bottom gives a hollow sound and the internal temperature is 205 F. This may take an hour or more, but keep an eye on the loaves. 

 

When the loaves seem done, I turn off the oven and leave the loaves on the stone for another 10-15 minutes to get a crisper crust. Then remove the loaves to a cooling rack. Brush again with the cornstarch solution.

 

Cooling

Don't slice them until they are thoroughly cooled. 2 hours or more.

 

This bread will keep for week. It freezes very well (wrapped in heavy duty foil and placed in an air-tight plastic bakery bag.)

 



David
ElaineW's picture
ElaineW

 "Let me know if it is still "interesting" after you've read the recipe!" 

David,

That is YOUR quote...."still interesting". This is the bread that you keep saying I should try making because it is, or was my favorite as a kid.

Actually, the recipe is interesting but it is going to have to wait until after the holidays. My baking from now through the end of December will have to be some tried and true winners.

Just curious as to why the bread is so dark?

Elaine

ehanner's picture
ehanner

David,
Thank you for your detailed description of the Corn Bread, it does look interesting. Just a few points for me to have clear.
When you say "Docking" you are referring to puncturing the dough through most of the way with an ice pick or similar device to allow steam to escape. Yes?

Have you worked out the hydration before you go to primary ferment?

One thing that has worked for me with Rye mixes is to hold back some of the water in the mix and develop the gluten at a lower hydration first. It works much better, dryer. Then add the balance of water. I find that I get a better rise and even crumb that way. You might even be able to go to a slightly higher hydration with better gluten development.

I'll let you know how this turns out, anxious to give it a try. Thanks!

Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Eric, 

"Docking" is indeed poking holes through the crust. It serves to let out moisture. I think it is supposed to prevent loaves from bursting, but it doesn't work that way for me. I don't think you poke your docking implement more than 2-3 inches into the dough, but I say this only because the docking rollers I've seen pictures of seem to have spikes about that long. I've never actually read instructions as to how deep to poke.  

I try to get the hydration right as early in the kneading as possible. I think making adjustments after primary fermentation would not be good - adding water would require more kneading than you would want to do. Adding flour would result in some flour that is not well-hydrated.   

I am intrigued by your suggestion to develop the gluten at lower hydration then add water later in the kneading. This would certainly be easier in a stand mixer than hand kneading. On reflection, I realize I have done this many times, although I have not planned on doing so in advance. Sometimes, when kneading is almost complete, I see that the dough is drier than it should be, so I'll add some water and continue kneading until it is well-mixed in.  

Why do you think it would result in a better crumb, assuming you end up with the same degree of gluten development before bulk fermentation?

David

ehanner's picture
ehanner

David I think you will end up with better gluten development if you hold some of the water until it is developed. I think if you add all the water up front, you never get the bands wound up as well. The result is more gas is trapped earlier, resulting in a less dense crumb. The docking seems like it would take you the other direction however. Maybe Harry Germany will comment on this.

Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Eric,

Your speculation regarding the effect on the crumb of adding water at the start of kneading versus after the gluten has developed is beyond my experience or my understanding of the variables involved.
I can only say I haven't encountered any bread recipes that suggest using what you suggest. That is not to imply that it's a bad idea, only that it's outside my current knowledge.
David

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

  I want to try this for a friend. Is rye sour. A sour dough starter of rye flour?


  If so what is the percentage of rye to white  ap flour  and water?


Or am I off base with the ingredients?


Thanks, Mr. Bob

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

"Rye Sour" is a 100% rye sourdough starter. You can convert a white wheat flour fed starter to a rye starter in 1 or 2 feedings.


See this for more specific instructions: Greenstein's Sourdough Rye (Rye Sour) care and feeding, illustrated


Hope this helps.


David

bobkay1022's picture
bobkay1022

Hi David  Thanks for the info. I never had a wheat starter after it was looking good I just added AP Flour and have a wicked white starter. I Took some yesterday and added rye to it.  It is really blooming this am.  2 oz starter 2 oz water and 4 oz of rye. It was real stiff but now looks very good and working great. Do you think one or two more feedings of just water and rye flour would work ok.  Certainly has a good smell to it.


 


Mr Bob


dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'd say one more feeding to build it to the necessary volume/weight and then make some rye bread.


David

Stargaret's picture
Stargaret

I have been trying to find the Jewish Corn Rye I remember from the Bronx in the 60's for over a year (I know others have had the same quest), reading your posts everywhere on this site.  Mini, Mango and others have responded to questions from my first newbie post.  I had made Greenstein's Jewish Rye, Norm's sour rye, and pumpernickel with mixed results (steaming is also new to me).  None quite had the taste I remember.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/30377/hi-frustrated-sourdough-newbie#comment-231596

I've armed myself with DiMuzio's Bread Baking (haven't gotten too far yet),  clear flour from a local bakery, my first stand mixer, quarry stones and a scale over the past few months.  I used to knead, then went to a bread machine and now that I'm retired and have acquired KA sour starter I'm rejuvenated and rarin' to go!

As I write this my first attempt at Greenstein's Corn Bread  (with minor editorializing by you) is almost ready to come out of the oven.  After the dough was immersed in water I had difficulty removing all of the water, so the dough was as sloppy/sticky as it could be.  Proper shaping was next to impossible.  I preheated my oven to 375, but after the bread was in and the oven steamed the temp dropped to 320.  I brought it up (instead of down) to 350.

If this attempt isn't a complete flop I will be doing flips down the street in my over-55 community in my apron-covered pajamas (which I never got out of).  Photos of the crumb to follow when the bread is cool enough to slice.

 

Stargaret's picture
Stargaret

The bread tastes wonderful!  The crumb is moist and the crust crispy.  Suggestions for improvement?  It never smoothed out and hard ly changed shape, but I've finally found the bread from my youth:

Margaret

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Thanks for letting us know you were able to make an old favorite.

This is a wet dough. It is shaped best with wet hands.

You might want to get Inside the Jewish Bakery which has a method for this bread that is somewhat easier to handle. The ITJB version makes an almost identical bread to Greenstein's.

David

Stargaret's picture
Stargaret

Hi David,

I am again making this recipe.  Would I be cheating to use cooking spray instead of water?  The additional water makes this dough so slack as to undo the gluten build.  Also, when I s&f this dough can you please lead me to a guide on how long to s&f each time and rest periods in between?  I know you've probably been asked this many times; my apologies.  I know this is a unique recipe and I love the outcome, so I will keep trying.

Since I would only be interested in the corn rye bread, I haven't purchased ITJB.  i need the money for all the flour!

Thank you again for all the time you (and others) give to all levels of expertise here.  I've learned so much.  (I have experience making bread, but I've not encountered a recipe quite like this.  I am also scientifically challenged!)

Margaret

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

and still use wet hands balancing out the recipe.  Wet hands is the way to go with sticky rye.  It is so easy to just rub the dough smooth.                         It gets easier with practice.  :)

Stargaret's picture
Stargaret

Mini,

Thanks so much for your encouragement!  I think I should have added more flour in the original mix.  It didn't really form enough of a ball, but I was afraid of adding too much flour.  I must confess that I was so exasperated I finally added flour when doing about the 5th s&f!  It's resting comfortably and still extremely sticky, so we'll see.

I think I lost about a loaf's worth just trying to scrape and clean my hands each time!  If this doesn't work today I'll try again tomorrow.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I'm not sure where you want to substitute cooking spray for water, but I can't think of any step at which it would be a good idea.

My suggestion for moistening the fermenting dough would be to simply wet your hands and apply a film of water over the dough surface, then cover it tightly. 

Regarding times for various steps: I hesitate to give specific answers, because you should judge by what the dough is telling you. Having said that:

After mixing just to incorporate all the ingredients, transfer to a wet board and stretch and fold for about 5 minutes. Keep your hands wet. There should be some gluten development, but not a lot. Then transfer the dough to a wetted bowl and ferment for 45-60 minutes. It should almost double. Then, shape the loaf. Remember to preheat the oven. There really is no additional proofing time. You want the loaf in the oven withing 10 minutes of shaping.

I hope this helps.

David

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi Elaine,

I assume "so dark" refers to the crumb, rather than the crust. Although Greenstein doesn't actually state so in his recipe, I think Sourdough Rye and Corn Bread are customarily made with white rye. I use whole rye because 1) it has more flavor, 2) I can get it in bulk.

If you want the most authentic Jewish Corn Bread, I suppose you should use white rye.

Actually, I can't recall ever making Corn Bread with white rye. I should do so, just to see how I like it. Truth is, I've made some rye breads with white rye, whole rye (fine milled) and pumpernickel four on different occasions. I've liked them all. They're just different.
 

David

sparks's picture
sparks

Hi, I appreciate all of the comments on corn rye bread. I have made this bread many times, I run into the problem of slicing the bread, even after 24 hours out of the oven, it gumms up the knife. If anyone has solved this problem I sure would like to know how you solved it.

.Sparks

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Sparks. 

I know what you mean about gumming up the knife. This is a really moist bread. My hunch is that it absolutely needs the long bake I described to dry out sufficiently for optimal slicing and eating. 

I actually haven't made corn rye since I created this topic. I now have a supply of white rye and should try it again.

David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Try using a sharp french knife as opposed to a bread knife, to slice the bread. Normally works better for heavier breads.

The recipe is interesting, like the last step in a 3 step rye process sour dough. I would mix it differently. I would mix the rye sour and rye together with just enough water to soften it a bit , wait 10 minutes and then add the rest of the ingredients, also letting them rest 10 minutes before kneading with a strong spoon in the bowl. Oil the bowl lightly before combining ingedients and this saves a few steps.

Does anyone wonder about the word "corn" in the recipe?   I can't help but wonder if the other flour should be spelt.  The rye is about 60%  What is the original language of the recipe?   "Korn" is the German word for a general term "grain."

Mini O

ehanner's picture
ehanner

David-Mini,
I haven't gotten to this yet but I mean to soon. The Rye Sour referred to is just active Rye sourdough starter, yes?

I make a lot of rye breads and have always used Hodgson Mills or Bob's and I try to keep a small amount of white rye from King Arthur to improve the flavor in all my white formulas. Last week I ordered 4 bags of Medium Rye from KA since several members here have stated their preference for this hard to find flour. I thought corned rye might be a good excuse to try out the medium grind. If this is as good as Mike Avery says it is, I'll have to find a source that will sell larger sizes. It really irks me to have to buy sample size bags from KA mail order.

I also ordered some Heidelberg sour along with the medium rye. Does that have any place here?

Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric.Rye Sour is rye sourdough starter. The difference is in how it's used in Jewish rye. In French rye breads, generally a white flour levain is used, and rye flour is mixed into the final dough. In Jewish ryes, a rye sour is used as a high proportion of the final dough, and wheat flour is added. The Czech and Polish ryes I've made are like the French. I have not made German-style ryes.I have no experience with medium rye. Jewish ryes call for white rye flour, but I have mostly used whole rye. I'd imagine medium rye would work very well. It would just be different.I have not used Heidelberg Rye Sour. My impression (which may be wrong) is that it is largely a flavoring agent to be used when you aren't using "real" rye sour.
David

sphealey's picture
sphealey

Sorry - my mouse pointer slipped and I hit minus instead of plus on dmsnyder's comment.  Would a couple of people plus it up please.  Thanks.

dm - would you consider expanding this into a blog post.  I think it would lead to a good discussion on types of rye bread.

sPh 

sparks's picture
sparks

Hi David, I went on a trip to eastern europe a few years ago, and one of the countries we visited was Poland. The rye bread in Poland rates 6 stars, it is fantastic, one of the best I have ever eaten. I would appreciate when you find the time, send me the recipe for Polish Rye Bread with the make up instructions. I would like to try to make it. I will make the corn bread one day next week, I intent to give it a 15 minute autolyse and hold back on 100 grams of water to develope it better, then add the water at the end of developement. I want to solve the problem of the gummed up knife when slicing the next day.

Sparks

sparks's picture
sparks

Hi Eric, I like your idear of holding back some of the water to get better gluten development to get stronger walls to hold the gas's. I am sure glad that I ran into you guys, I am still determined to solve the problem with the gummed up knife when slicing the bread the next day. The next time I make this bread I will try your idea. What really threw me off was in the book Greenstein says you must clean the sides of the bowl when mixing by machine, I have tried everything from hotter oven to reducing the hydration down to 70%, its a little better but not a clean knife when cutting. I will go back to the original formula with your idea. Thanks,

Sparks

ehanner's picture
ehanner

David,
I'm fermenting the corn rye formula now. The dough was fairly slack and I think well developed considering. My question is; I placed the dough into a ss bowl that would be roughly full when the dough doubles and covered it with 75 F water. A strange sight I must say.

I came back in an hour and it's not quite doubled but the water is gone. So, thinking the water must have been absorbed, I add more which promptly slides between the dough and bowl and floats the dough. So the water didn't absorb it just migrated below the dough mass since it is heavier. Makes sense given the co2 gas bubbles. I know there was a question, oh so, is this normal? When I go to remove the dough from the bowl there should be a couple cups of water below it.

Eric

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Eric. 

I've never had my corn rye dough float. Nor have I had it absorb much water during bulk fermentation. The dough has been pretty well hydrated at the end of kneading. I would speculate that your dough was drier than mine have been prior to bulk fermentation, and fermentation made more CO2 than mine did. Did you do the partial kneading before adding all the water trick? I wonder if you developed the gluten better than I have done. 

Have you sliced the corn ryes yet? I'd love to see the crumb. I'm wondering if it is less dense and more holey than what I've gotten.

David

Kuret's picture
Kuret

I made this bread today and it turned very good! I whould love to say great but there are some things left to work on. Biggest problem for me whas the fact that the loaves got so low, now I kind of know that this was because of me shaping into batards wich should have been higher as the nonexistent proofing does not give them time to fall down as such it might be possible to get fuller loaves.

A couple of notes about my baking of this bread: 1. It did float! 2. I mistakenly added cumin instead of koriander wich I usually add to my rye breads, still tastes good though! 3. Are the T's tablespoons? I used 2T potatostarch when making the galazing and this turned out like thick custard, must be wrong?  4. I did not read the description as thoroughly as I should so I probably underbaked the bread by 20 minutes but it still tastes baked funny enough!

 Great bread that will be made more times!

Kuret's picture
Kuret

I made this bread today and it turned very good! I whould love to say great but there are some things left to work on. Biggest problem for me whas the fact that the loaves got so low, now I kind of know that this was because of me shaping into batards wich should have been higher as the nonexistent proofing does not give them time to fall down as such it might be possible to get fuller loaves.

A couple of notes about my baking of this bread: 1. It did float! 2. I mistakenly added cumin instead of koriander wich I usually add to my rye breads, still tastes good though! 3. Are the T's tablespoons? I used 2T potatostarch when making the galazing and this turned out like thick custard, must be wrong?  4. I did not read the description as thoroughly as I should so I probably underbaked the bread by 20 minutes but it still tastes baked funny enough!

 Great bread that will be made more times!

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Kuret.

I'm glad you enjoyed the bread.

"T" is an abreviation for tablespoon. (15 cc, if you prefer.)

The glaze is usually made with cornstarch. Potato starch would give a very different result. If you need instructions for making the galze, let me know.

I haven't made this bread for a very long time. I really should.


David

Kuret's picture
Kuret

Well I made the glaze with potato starch wich kind of worked out sltough I had to add somwhere around 1 litre of water to make it soft enough to brush on. I have now looked up more thoroughly the right amount of potato starch for glazing and it seems to be 10g to 250g water. Don´t know the weights of your T's of cornstarch though.

I am probably going to make this bread again this saturday so If all goes well then I can post some photos of how this bread turns out using Swedish ingredients, whole rye of course as there is no such product in sweden as sifted rye (there is one but that is 40%sifted rye and 60% soft wheat pretty worthless for baking).

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Kuret.

I'm going to be making Corn Rye also, but with white rye. It will be fun to compare. I expect to post my results as a new blog entry.

I don't weigh the corn starch. It gives a clear glaze that makes the loaves shiny. The recipe is:

Dissolve 2 Tablespoons of corn starch in 1/4 cup of cold water.

Add this slowly, whisking constantly, to 1 cup of boiling water. Boil slowly, whisking, until slightly thickened. Take off the fire and brush on the loaves before and after baking.

The corn starch glaze will keep refrigerated for several days.


David

Kuret's picture
Kuret

Sorry for not reporting back on this, but I am in the midst of moving and also starting my university studies so baking and internet have been pushed a bit aside and I expect it to be pushed aside for a couple of weeks. However I did make Corn rye last saturday and it turned out worse than last week.

Maybe I should not say worse because the taste was better now that I did not add any cumin but instead the dough turned out way to soft, or so I think. I have since realized that this can be due to the fact that I am using high gluten flour rather than clear flour. I might attempt to do a small batch using a blend of 60%WW 40%HG to replicate clear flour. I assume that clear flour absorbes more water than 13%protein flour?

This however led to my loaves turning out like flat discs rather than loaves. Im not hoping to get roundish loaves as I get with my wheat loaves but still better than 1-1½" thick should be possible? I also have a bit of a problem with the loaves sticking to the parchment paper. Im thinking of greasing it so that the loaves stick less? Don´t have this problem with any other breads than Corn rye.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, Kuret.

First Clear flour does absorb more water than bread flour or AP. I can't compare it to high gluten (13% protein), because I don't use it except in bagels. I would expect FC to absorb way less water than WW.

My loaves of corn rye are always rather flat. Since Norm is back, he might want to tell us whether this is expectable or there is some shaping or baking trick to get more rounded loaves. In general, a higher oven temperature at the start, use of a well-pre-heated baking stone and good steaming at the start increases oven spring.

To prevent sticking, sprinkle the parchment paper very generously with coarsely ground cornmeal. I use polenta.

To replicate First Clear Flour, you can sift coarse or medium ground WW. If you can't get that, a mix of WW and AP or bread flour can be used. Hamelman advises using 85-90% WW. Leader advises using about the same. I have not had to substitute, so I can't share any personal experience.


David

Kuret's picture
Kuret

The reason I use HG flour for this recipie is that I had an Idea that It might add some structure to such a gloppy dough, and indeed i find that the texture is much better than most rye breads using similar proportions of wheat to rye.

Living in sweden I have a choice of either fine WW flour or Graham flour wich is plain flour with added wheat germ and coarsely ground bran. Sifting the graham flour whould probably result in just plain flour as the bran is really coarse.  

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

I usually use King Arthur Flour for "All Purpose" flour, and it has a higher gluten content than most other American AP flours.

I have no idea of the flours available in Sweden or how to "translate" from the flours I have to the ones you have.

Any let me know how your rye progresses.

David

Kuret's picture
Kuret

I might do a quick blog entry about swedish flours n the same spirit as janedo's post about french flours. Swedish flour beeing less mysterious I assume.

When using my 13% protein flour I usually blend it with 10% protein flour and based on the assumption that the percentages are weight wise i then get approx 11,5% protein flour wich seems to be perfect for the breads that I am making.

Living in sweden I also have a hard time not making rye breads all the time as I constantly yearn for rye taste. This has lead to me trying out loads of 30-60% ryes with different success rates. I have very recently discovered why it is so important to just double your rye levain rather than quadroupling it or similar as I do to my white levain, It both rises better and smells/tastes better, the levain that is not the bread the main difference here is crumb structure, the sourer the better when it comes to ryes.

josordoni's picture
josordoni

I'm sorry, I must just be dense this morning - when you say double against quadruple, are you meaning the total amount of the levain, or the proportion of levain against flour/water for elaborating it? 

I love rye, and had real problems in managing the very gloopy dough I had last time - I had a rye levain that I had left out for too long without feeding enough, and it was very sour so after reading here about the extra sourness from deflated levain being good for rye, I decided to use it anyway. 

I just wanted to use it all up, so I made a loaf with 280g of levain, 300 English bread flour, 100 plain flour, 100 100% wholemeal rye, 350g water.  The levain was about 80% hydration. 

 The dough bubbled up fine, but never got  any firmness too it after folding, just stayed gloopy. I rose it in a sieve lined with floured linen couche (I didn't reckon it would manage on just the couche alone,) but it spread out completely as soon as it hit the baking tray, and had only a little oven spring.

 Bread is tasty and has fine holes in the crumb so it is not heavy or brick like,  but is a lot flatter than I would like .

 I'm not sure if it went wrong with that much levain in it, or if that is what I should expect .

sparks's picture
sparks

Hi

Does anyone know of a best or correct PH for the rye sour (levain), for making corn rye bread, or just rye bread. I have been using 4.5 PH I do not know if that is the best for corn rye. When I went lower on the PH to 4.O or 3.5  it did not taste more sour, but it gave a grayer crumb on the inside of the bread. I would appreciate if anyone has more knowledge on this subject.

Best Regards

Sparks

Kuret's picture
Kuret

Okay, first off I want to say that I am by no means an expert on these matters, however I feel that this is something thats correct according to my experience.

When making a mixed rye bread (rye+wheat) you have to think about to aspects of the sourness.

  1. the lower ph prevents the enzymes in the rye from cracking up the pentosan carbohydrates into simpler sugars. The pentosans then can give structure to the rye dough.
  2. the ow ph starts to deterioate the wheat flours proteins robbing the wheat of its baking properties.

This is why its common to use a really sour rye levain and then quick rising the bread with yeast after making the final dough. This both provides sourness for the rye flour and also doesnt give time for the gluten to be destroyed by the acids.

When I am talking about doubling and quadroupling I mean levain prior to feeding in relation to levain post feeding. Feeding 20g levain with 10g flour and 10g water as opposed to 20g levain 30g water/flour. 20->40g double 20->80g quadrouple

josordoni's picture
josordoni

Great!  Thanks Kuret.

 I think overproofing may have a lot to answer for in my case.  And trying to make a totally sourdough loaf rather than adding yeast may not have helped.

 Luckily the bread is very edible, so when it is finished I shall try some variations in timing for the next batch.

Kuret's picture
Kuret

not making corn rye but rather a standard rye I made a greive mistake today. I had a paper with a formula that I had calculated wrong alongside the properly calculated formula. The main difference beeing that the bad formula contained 75% preferment out of total dough weight. When it was supposed to be in the 35-45% range, this led to a dough that had the following problems.

  • overly slack feel due to low levels of fresh gluten
  • extremly fast fermentation, sourdough doubling in 30minutes!?!?
  • ruptures on the dough surface during bulk fermen, much like the ruptures on 100% rye bread when fermenting
I intended to retard this bread overnight but as things are going so fast I might have to bake them tonight. 10pm in sweden so they wont be done until 1145pm, bedtime.. yawn..
 
josordoni's picture
josordoni

Interesting to see this when it comes out of the oven - don't forget to take pictures!

I've gone back to white sourdough for this weeks batch...

 

 

beeman1's picture
beeman1

Has anyone tried this bread using a sourdough for the sour rather than making it up every time?

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi beeman1.

I don't understand your question.

If you are asking if anyone has used a wheat-fed sourdough rather than a rye sour, I would point out that in Jewish rye most if not all the rye flour is in the sour. So, if you used a wheat sourdough starter, you would also be drastically reducing, if not eliminating, the proportion of rye in the dough.

If this is not your question, please rephrase it.


David

beeman1's picture
beeman1

Sorry for the delay. I was thinking about using a rye starter which I have on hand rather than start a new starter as described in Greensteins book.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, beeman1.

If you have an active rye sour, there is absolutely no need to start another from scratch.

Now, if you have been feeding it with whole rye, you might want to convert some of it to a white rye sour for use in Corn Rye and Sour rye. I have made both Greenstein's Sour Rye Bread and Jewish Corn Bread with a rye starter fed whole rye. The bread ends up quite different from one made with white rye, but by no means "bad." In fact, if you really like heavier rye bread, you might prefer it.

David

beeman1's picture
beeman1

Thanks for your prompt reply I think I will try it both ways. I have a mill on order and will probably be going whole grain soon. But I will try the white rye also.