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A New York Bakers Recipe German Sour Rye

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hornedfox's picture
hornedfox

A New York Bakers Recipe German Sour Rye

Has any one tried this formula

http://nybakers.com/recipes/Sauerteig_roggenbrot.pdf 

I am at step 2 twelve hours in and it still looks very wet. Can I re mix this with the grains and add more flour to adjust the hydration, or should I persivere with the wet dough?

 

thanks

Ian

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

The rye flour and the cracked wheat are going to absorb more moisture while the dough ferments.  As long as the dough has enough cohesion to hold itself together, rather than oozing or pouring like a batter, it should come out okay.  Since I don't know your familiarity with high-rye doughs, I'll risk offending you and point out that this will not behave like a wheaten dough when you get to the kneading stage.  Instead, it will be more like mortar or wet cement and very sticky.  You will probably want to keep a bowl of water at hand so that you can keep your hands wet while handling the dough.  That will head off a lot of the stickiness.  Handle the dough as little, and as gently, as you can because the pentosans that make up the dough's structure will not take the kind of force that you would use when handling a wheaten dough.

I have not made this specific bread.  What I've passed along, above, is from working with other, similar, rye breads.

Paul

hornedfox's picture
hornedfox

This is the first time for a total rye loaf. As far as baking goes most things are new to me as a total novice. I was surprised when the freshly mixed dough looked like cake batter. I did add more flour whoops I should have had faith! So they are on the final proving before a lenghty bake. I guess the long bake time is normal for rye breads also?

 

Ian

gmabaking's picture
gmabaking

Ian, sorry that I don't know what might work with this bread. Best thing I can say is that it did have a little pan rising and it was edible if sliced very thin. Just wasn't successful with this particular recipe. A friend tried and didn't have good results but I thought that might be because it was only her third loaf of rye.

Years ago I made one and only one loaf of rye bread. Without any understanding of the characteristics of rye vs wheat, I mixed up something that, unbaked looked like wet cement, and baked looked like dry cement. After several months of looking at recipes and pictures on TFL, I marveled at the pictures and descriptions but didn't try baking anything but variations of wheat bread, sometimes a little spelt, seeds and grains, but always with plenty of good wheat flour.  Luck of the draw gave me Black Bread as a recipe tester for ITJB. So it was either leave my comfort zone or quit being a tester.  While that bake wouldn't have won a prize for looks, my favorite recipe taster loved it and now knew that rye bread could come out of our kitchen. Old School Jewish Deli Rye is my favorite topped with nigella seeds. A great bread and while not fool proof as to looks, is consistently great tasting.

Nowadays a touch of rye  finds its way into many if not most of what I bake.

Good luck with your bread-

Barbra

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi,

I just checked the formula, this seems sound, and the dough shouldn't be too wet.

I make ryes with 75% to 85% water all the time, and depending on the flour the 85% is still dry enough to proof freestanding.

I'll try this formula.

Did you by any chance use volume measures? This might account for too much of one thing and too little of another.

Cheers,

Juergen

PS. There are lots of ways to make rye bread. Look at the blogs by mini oven, ananda, shiao ping, varda ... Long bakes, short bakes, hot bakes, cold bakes ...

hornedfox's picture
hornedfox

yes I used volume measures, I much prefer weight. I got good rising on the dough but it was slow and needed more time I put that down to temp

 

Ian

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hm. There can be different cup sizes in the US and UK.

I checked the weight conversions versus the % , looks all good. I would only trust weight in this case. What rye do you use?

Here's a picture of my rye sourdough for this "German Rye":

Quite stiff. 

I used cream instead of buttermilk. Buttermilch is originally the liquid that remains when you make butter(try it, pour double cream into your food processor and turn it on.) The Buttermilk in the shops is more like Yoghurt (maybe Sauerrahm in German). 

Temp can be a great factor an dthis formula omits it. The ryes I normally make are fermented at 28dC. But I have a German recipe where you build a two stage sourdough with a long cold period (15 hours at 15dC) and then a short warm period... 

Wondrous world of rye. 

Juergen

Here is a photo of the ready mixed paste (I used 1/2 the given amounts):

Stiff. Almost as clay.

hornedfox's picture
hornedfox

I used organic dark rye. Initially my dough was wetter than yours. I adjusted until it was stiffer, it cooked into the consistancy of a house brick and was exceptionally sour. I need to look at my starter and see if I have the right bugs!

 

Back to making pain rustique from Hamelmanns Bread. This is a great recipe and it turns outwell for me. Dont think I am up to 100% rye loafs yet

 

Ian

Juergen Krauss's picture
Juergen Krauss

Hi Ian,

Don't get disencouraged by this formula - I believe it has some serious issues.

As a German I was intrigued by the name, and I wanted to know if the bread holds up to it.

My impression is that this formula tries to create some sort of German Pumpernickel, or "Vollkorn-Roggenbrot" which you can buy in UK health stores. But the process behind those breads is quite different, and the baking times are 4 to 16 hours!, The resulting crumb looks a bit similar, but that is where the similarities end.

Anyway, here a few more pics of my NY Bakers German Rye.

The shaped, fully "proofed" dough (12 hours bulk, knockback, shape, 90 minutes in tin)

My experience told me to bake this 2 hours into the bulk proof - but I just wanted to verify the formula.

5 hours into the proof I was convinced in making an elaborate brick, but the oven spring surprised me:

But the crumb: Very dense and dry. Taste very sour, mouthfeel not pleasant.

This bread will make some great altus!

As I said - don't be disencouraged by this formula, I think it has multiple issues.

Try the 1939 Russian Rye, this is quite straightforward.

The formula and plenty of comments are in this thread:

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/15577/pure-sourdough-rye-year-1939#comment-203798

Awaiting your next rye,

Juergen

PS. Hamelman's Rye chapter is also great.