The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Couldn't resist ....

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JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

Couldn't resist ....

I'm a whole-wheat kind of guy and usually that's all I make. But at the Fresh Loafer's meet-up, like Floyd, I was really taken by Crumb Bum's miche. And not only me. My wife, Aurora, who is just as big on the whole-wheat kick as I am, said, "Umm, honey? You think you could make that? You know, not all the time, but ... maybe ... THIS WEEK?!"

Leemid's sourdough was also exceptionally tasty -- not just sour, but much more complex than that -- and when I found that he was using Carl Griffith's legendary 1847 Oregon Trail starter, I knew I had to try it.

Personally, I was disappointed in the desem I brought. Whereas it's usually moist, this one was a bit dry. It was a day old and I don't think I'd stored it well -- for most of the day, I just left it out on the counter, until I finally stuffed it in a canvas bag before going to bed. Then again, the raisin bread was dry too. Maybe the flour? I'd used winter wheat instead of spring.

Anyway, I've got a big old bowl of miche in the kitchen that I started up this morning. Tomorrow morning, I'll shape and bake. Can't wait!

If any of you give my whole-wheat starter (Arthur) a try, I'd be interested to hear how it performs for you.

leemid's picture
leemid

If not 100% because of the courseness of it (usually my opinion, but not your bread), then a significant percentage. I really liked the desem bread you brought, didn't find it dry at all. But then, I haven't had what you would call your best. Still, it beat the pants off my rye which really stunk. I tossed it this morning along with the batch I made yesterday. That recipe used to make great bread, but the last three tries have tanked. I am thinking it's the AP flour, just not strong enough for the ww and rye. I plan to get some of that flour crumb bum uses instead of Pendleton's Power brand. But I have gone brain-dead and can't remember where he said he gets it...

I'm glad you guys liked the sourdough. My family really likes it too. I spent the rest of the weekend eating crumb bums miche. I don't have the recipe so I don't know when I can try it personnally. Perhaps he will post it, or if it already is, if someone could direct me to it...

So, do we need to plan on holiday breads for another meeting some time in late November, or even before Thanksgiving? Concentrate on specialty items like cinnamon rolls, raisin breads, rich breads, pies and cakes, cookies, etc...? Oooo, sounds interesting to me...

That's my story,

Lee

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

Floyd posted the miche recipe in another thread, I think, but here it is so those following the thread don't have to click:

Ingredients:

  • 850g white flour (I'm using KAF AP, but Crumb Bum uses bread flour)
  • 150g whole wheat or whole rye flour
  • 750 g water
  • 20g salt
  • 20g active starter


Procedure:

Dissolve the starter into the water. Mix the salt and flours together. Combine and mix until everything is hydrated. After a few hours, give it a fold or three, spaced by ... an hour or so? After 24 hours, pre-shape and then shape the bread. Let it rise for 2-3 hours. Place on a floured baking sheet, slash as desired and put it in a cold oven. Dribble some water on the bottom of the oven or place a metal container on the bottom with some hot water in it. Crank it up to 500 for about 10 minutes, then down to 440 for another 30-40 minutes.

I think that's about it? How'd I do, Crumb Bum?

As for a November gathering, I think I'm probably out. November's going to be crazy with family (we're hosting Thanksgiving and Christmas this year), and I'm not sure the weather will be very inviting for an outdoor event.

Again, it was great to see everyone! I'll definitely be up for something once the weather gets nicer again.
Floydm's picture
Floydm

That is what I'm trying today too.

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Well, it is out of the oven. And, let me tell you, that is one big-ass loaf of bread.

It looks about right, smells very good. It is an inch or two shorter that crumb bum's was, but it held its shape quite well.

I am *really* tempted to crack it open right now, but I know I should wait to try it in the morning. There is the one downside with this baking until 9:30 PM method: going to bed with an empty stomach when the house is full of the aroma of fresh bread. :(

sphealey's picture
sphealey

=== Crank it up to 500 for about 10 minutes, then down to 440 for another 30-40 minutes. ===

Given that this is a cold-start method, do you mean (1) turn to oven on to the 500 degree setting for 10 minutes, then lower it to the 440 setting for 40 or (2) turn the oven on to the 500 setting, wait until it reaches 500, wait 10 minutes, then turn it down to 440 for 40 minutes?

My reading is meaning (1), but I don't think a standard US electric oven would get to 500 in 10 minutes with a 2 kg miche and a tray of water in it.

Thanks.

sPh

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hey Sph

I mean 1.  Turn your oven to 500 for 10 and turn it down to 440.  My oven beeps after 15 to 18 minutes.  It is at 440 at this point.  I don't bother with a tray of water I just put 1/3 to 1/2c water on the floor of oven.  It amounts to 8 to 10 Tsp's distributed over the whole oven floor, so it is not like you are flooding it with tons of water.  Check the bottom of your loaf to make sure it does not burn.  If it is getting too dark you can go 420 instead of 440, double up your pans, or raise the rack up.  Good luck.

Da Crumb Bum

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

JMonkey, thanks for the nice summary of the miche procedure. I have a (dumb?) question: where does the dough spend the 24 hours? My kitchen is pretty cool these days( and nights) but maybe the dough should be refrigerated? Looking forward to Floyd's comments after baking it, A

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

Crumb Bum just leaves his on the counter. In the heat of summer, he said he uses cold water to cool it down a bit.

It's such a small amount of starter, it'll take quite a while for the dough to rise, so on the counter should be fine.

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hey All

I feel happy you all liked my miches.  JMonkey, you did great explaining the recipe.  Just a few more details.  After I mix up the flours I let them set 15 min or so then with the heel of my hand I smash/ smear it to get out any dry spots.  I then let it set 30min or so and start folding.  I fold until the dough is pretty well developed 4 or 5 times over 2 to 3 hours.  My dough usually sets about 20 hours from the time of mixing.  I tried not folding as much, and after the long ferment it just does not have the strength to hold the gasses and deflates.  When I bake I put about 1/2 cup of water spread around the floor of my oven. 

The toughest part of making this is knowing your starter.  If your starter is very active and it is warm you can make it with cold water to slow it down a little.  If your starter is slow you could add a little more starter or let it set in a warm place during fermentation.  If you do let it go too far the starter will eat your gluten and you end up with a tasty flat loaf.  The first time I made this I could not believe 20g would do the job.  I put in 40g which did not look like much either and the dough doubled 10 hours later instead of the 20 or so I wanted.  I also turn off the oven and crack the door for 10 min ir so to force out a little more moisture.  I will sometimes split the dough and put it in bread tins and bake 2 sandwich loaves. 

Leemid, I have some of your firm Otis.  I have a pretty busy week but lets see if we can meet so I can give some back to you.  I work in SE and could meet you at Westmoreland Park or Eastmoreland Golf Course? I get off work at 3:30.  Let me know what would work for you.  By the way 20g of firm Otis is going in a Miche tonight.

Hope this helps,

Da Crumb Bum

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Crumbum or Floyd, yet another question - what did you use to proof the miche if it is such a large loaf? Or is the dough strong enough to hold the shape without support? I really want to try this to send to my friend in San Diego, and thanks to the people who answered the question about mailing bread, A

Floydm's picture
Floydm

A colander lined with rice flour dusted linen towels.

slidething's picture
slidething

 Miche looks very good - will try it this weekend -

 One question - I promise ( LOL ) is there a weight converter program that you can type your recipe into and change it from one weight to another - I use pounds and ounces, and alot of the recipes here use grams .  Also JMonkey said Crumb Bum uses Bread flour - But He ( JMonkey ) uses AP flour - what about a combination of both or 825g flour with the addtion of 25 g. wheat bran.

  Slide__Out

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

Here's a link to one converter. You can also go to Google and type in: "[number] grams to ounces" and it will do the conversion for you. I find Google to be easiest.

KAF AP is pretty strong for AP flour -- it's basically a weak bread flour. But I'm sure a combo would work just fine. As for the wheat bran -- heck, why not?

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Ok, I am sure this is known by everyone here but I have a bit of a problem.  Since I do not as yet have scales I need to convert all recipes to cups.  So I did a search in Google that came up with different possibilites.  The results of one of them is below:

3.697 cups…flour

0.652 cups…. whole wheat or whole rye flour

3.26 cups     …….water

0.087 cups  ……..salt

0.087  cups  ……active starter 

But if I go to the following site below I discover the following conversions which teaches me in effect that a pound of feathers is not equal to a pound.  Is this right? 

Grams are volumetric while cups are......not?  Can you see the question?  I am not trying to be arcane since having no scales it is necessary for me to convert to cups........

http://www.waitrose.com/recipes/conversionchartpopup.aspx

Vegetables Description    
 
Onions, chopped 115g = 1 cup
 
Cabbage, shredded 75g = 1 cup
 
Peas, shelled 150g = 1 cup
 
Beansprouts 50g = 1 cup
 
Potatoes, peeled and diced 170g = 1 cup
 
Spinach, cooked, purée 200-225g = 1 cup
 
Tomatoes 225g = 1 cup

Thanks 

dolfs's picture
dolfs


A pound is always 237 g, no matter what the ingredient. Whatever converter you use, check this. The "feathers" comes into play when you try to convert weights to volumes, and indeed a pound of feathers is not the same volume as a pound of lead. Avoid volumes, as they are imprecise.

--dolf

My Bread Aventures 

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

the website and those conversions on it are incorrect?

ryan's picture
ryan

A pound is 237 gr? I thought it was 454 gr and a kilo is 1000gr.

Floydm's picture
Floydm

A pound is 454 grams.

It is true that volumes are much less precise than weights, but they are awfully convenient. I'd estimate 3 1/2 cups of flour to be a pound.

An inexpensive scale that can do metric/imperial conversion is a worthwhile investment. Shouldn't cost you more than 20 or 30 bucks.

dolfs's picture
dolfs

I was confusing a cup of water and a pound. Yes, a pound is 454g and a kilo is short for kilogram. The prefix "kilo" (as in kilometer) means 1000.


--dolf

My Bread Aventures 

slidething's picture
slidething

 Got it book marked - thanks JMonkey -

  LOL this site needs a chat room -

  Slide__Out

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hello All

Looks like you all got the conversion thing worked out.  As for the flour I use it is called Morbread unbleached flour.  It is available at Cash and Carry here in Portland.  I looked it up and it has 12% protein.  Be sure to get the bag with the brown label as the green lable is bleached.  Cost is $15 for 50 lbs.

Floyd, I know you have sliced into that big ol' loaf by now, what do you think? 

Leemid, I was just wondering, did your firm Otis spend some time with the Bulgarian Swim Team?  I put 20g of starter into the mix and it had doubled in 10 hours.  I am thinking it might need something more substancal than flour to eat.  Maybe steak?  It is lots more powerful than my starter thats for sure. 

Da Crumb Bum 

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Here it is, slightly lop-sided.

Comments:


  • I think if anything it over-proofed. When I came home it was spilling out of the bowl. It had easily doubled and perhaps tripled in size in roughly 22 hours.

  • I think I should have folded once or twice more in the evening. I only did three folds and then fell asleep.

  • I did 150 grams King Arthur's Whole Wheat Flour, 400 grams Stone-Buhr Bread Flour and 450 grams King Arthur's All Purpose Flour. I think I'll bump up the KA AP flour about 200 grams more and reduce the Stone-Buhr Bread Flour next time so it is a little less chewy.

  • I didn't get much spring in the oven. This may be because my primary fermentation ran a bit long and it just didn't have much oomph left. The crumb was decently open but not as beautiful as yours was.

  • The flavor was fabulous. Nice and sour, with a quite crackly crust.

  • A great technique and really nice loaf of bread. Thank you crumb bum for the helpful the instructions.

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

 I couldn't resist making Crum Bums miche either. Everything went perfect. I made two loaves, let them rise on semolina covered parchment on a cookie sheet. I had an appointment at noon so I planned to get them in the oven by 11:00 a.m.  I took myYikes, look what happened to my CB miche: I couldn't resist making Crum Bums miche either. Everything went perfect. I made two loaves, let them rise on semolina covered parchment on a cookie sheet. I had an appointment at noon so I planned to get them in the oven by 11:00 a.m. I took my stone out of the oven, put the risen loaves into the cold oven, put the oven on 500 for 10 min., turned it down to 440º. About 10 min later I smelled something burning at the same time I saw smoke coming from the oven.

 

I quickly took the pan/loaves out, put my stone back in, put the loaves on the stone and turned off the oven. I left them to fend for themselves, I had to leave. When I came home several hours later they were pale but cooked through and after I cut the burned bottom off tasted great.

 

I don't have a clue what happened but I plan on making these again very soon...after I see what's wrong with my oven.

 

The recipe is very easy and it makes a LOT of bread. Thanks crumb bum for a great recipe, I'll try to do it justice next time. weavershouse

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Was the sheet so large that it trapped all the heat underneath the loaf when you turned on the oven? How much room was left around the sides? Upper coil working? Shelf too low in the oven?

Mini O

browndog's picture
browndog

That's taking the cold oven theory a bit far, Weavershouse--set oven on fire, douse flames, ignore for several hours...but the loaves look very good just the same--a perfect crumb, looks tender and tasty.

ryan's picture
ryan

I've been reading alot in recent post about cooking bread in a cold oven...I'm curious to know the thought behind this.

 

Thanks,

Ryan

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

If your kitchen is already hot, your oven doesn't have to be baking as long. "Cold" oven is normally done without a stone, for the stone takes 45min to an hour to heat up properly and the oven is turned on longer.

With a high percent rye loaf, final proofing is shortened to 5 to 10 minutes. The preheating time and energy is spared and the loaf proofs while the oven is warming up.

Mini O

browndog's picture
browndog

Ryan, here's a link to a pretty extensive thread about cold oven. I believe the consensus among its proponents was that a long preheat was a waste of resources and/or that the bread turned out fine without it. But the discussion itself generated a bit of heat...

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Oh dear, weavershouse, so sorry about your loaves and hope it isn't anything major with your oven. My dough is sitting on the counter and I have to say it doesn't look very exciting right now. Maybe the miche fairies will show up in the night and all will be well. I think it will be ready to shape at 10am, but I have no idea what I should be looking for so that is going by CB's timing. Can't wait to hear how Floyd's turned out, A

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Floyd, so I can expect the dough to rise during the night? I tried to time it so that I would be awake and somewhat alert when it was ready to shape. I think your crumb looks fantastic but of course I didn't see crumbum's to compare. If mine is anywhere near that great I will be jumping up and down. I used 850g KA bread flour and 150g KA white whole wheat - what is the theory on using all purpose flour? My dough was really slack and I folded about 6 times. Doesn't appear to be doing much of anything right now, but all I can do is wait - and try again if it doesn't perform. Thanks for sharing the pictures, A

Floydm's picture
Floydm

I haven't used KA bread flour, but the Stone-Buhr stuff is really high protein. It makes a pretty tough, chewy loaf. KA AP is softer. KA's bread flour may be soft enough on its own though.

I started mine about 8 PM. At 7 AM I took a peek and it had a few bubbles and had expanded a little but not a lot. By 6 PM it had expanded a bit too much.

Now that the weather is cooling off, I think I'll try this again and make use of our "cold room" (the room we don't heat). I think 22 hours would have been fine if it had been 5 or 10 degrees cooler.

Good luck!

Ramona's picture
Ramona

I am not at the point in my education to do starters yet.  But I do a cold start in the oven at 450 degrees for my whole wheat yeast breads (in loaf pans) and after 10 minutes, I turn it down it down to 350 degrees (usually, depending on the recipe specifications).  I get great oven spring and nice brown tops. 

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hello All

Floyd, the bread looks great.  The crumb looks open, shiny, and moist.  I made this using Leemids Oregon Trail Starter.  20g doubled in just 10 hours.  I punched it down and put it outside 45 degrees and let it set until 4:30.  It had at least tripled by this time.  I thought I was in major trouble.  I dumped it out and preshaped.  I did not hear the hiss of escaping gas.  I rounded proofed and baked as usual.  It turned out well.  I think I have learned something valuable in this.  I think that in the past when I was trying to perfect this bread, I thought  gas loss and deflation were due to the culture eating or degrading the gluten.  I now think that I was not developing the dough enough at the start to be able to handle the long ferment and the gas that comes with it.  I had this latest dough to almost a windowpane type development before I stowed it for the night.

WeaverHouse, I am sorry the bottom of your bread burned.  I hate that smell.  I would suggest lowering the start temp, moving it up a notch or doubling up your sheet pan as possible solutions?  I have an electric oven that heats up slower than yours?  I should have told people to watch the first time to make sure this does not happen.  I imagine there is quite a difference between different ovens, sorry

Da Crumb Bum  

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

I'm going to check out my oven today but I bet you are right on. I did use my biggest cookie sheet because the two loaves took up so much room. There was not much space around the sides of the cookie sheet and the 500º heat was, like you said, trapped underneath. I was baking on the middle shelf so I don't think it was placement problem. I'll check the upper coils today. Thanks so much for your expert help.

browndog, you're too funny. That is pretty much how it went, though. The bread does taste great which surprised me because I thought it would be undercooked or burnt tasting. I'm sure it will be better next time, especially the crust, top and bottom :)

crumb bum, no need to be sorry for anything. It's a great recipe and your instructions are fine. I think mini oven is right, too much heat with no where to go except under my loaves. I learned something that's for sure. 

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

Let us know how it went. I was happy to see it have a great oven spring like crumb bum said it would and all would have been well if not for the smoke and scorch. Good luck.                                                       weavershouse

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Thanks for the good wishes, Floyd and Weavershouse, but I'm afraid I have either dead dough or the slowest rising ever! I can only assume my starter wasn't as vigorous as I thought - or he looked at the huge amount of flour and said "NO WAY!" I checked at 6am when Henry the ancient cat needed food - and there was no sign of any action, just a bowl of sullen looking batter. When I finally finished breakfast and reading the latest on TFL, around 10am there was no change, so I put warm water in the sink and set the crock mixing bowl to heat up. Still no sign of life, but when I lifted one side of the dough I found a spongy area, so I turned the entire mass and put it back. I really don't want to be the first member to flunk miche, but I'm thinking I will work on building up my starter and try again. It certainly doesn't sound anything like Floyd's which was climbing over the side of the bowl! I'll report back later, A

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

Well, so far I have done everything wrong. Maybe I should lose my TFL badge and be sent back to basic bread 101. First of all, the dough HAD doubled and it was the weird top that had me fooled. By the time I figured this out it was way overproofed, so I dusted a linen towel with flour and rice flour and sorta gathered the dough into a ball and dropped it into the colander, towel lined. Some time later a light went off in my head - overproofed dough should be deflated and reshaped. Or did I dream that? Nothing venture, nothing gain, so I tipped it out onto a floured counter, spilling rice flour everywhere. There was no way that dough would deflate! Soooooo, it is shaped after a fashion and sitting in the colander, and I think I might as well bake it soon. What's the worst thing that could happen now? Fingers crossed, A

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Heh... sounds like this one is quite an adventure. Good luck!

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

Wow. This is one big, honkin' loaf of bread. I shouldn't make it too often -- we could get used to this kind of white stuff. And Crumb Bum is right about Otis. What a starter, Leemid! (I'll put some in the mail for you tomorrow, leemid -- I've not been able to get to the post office). I started mine at 5am Monday morning and by 8pm, the dough had already doubled. So I put it in our "cold room" overnight, where it got down in the low 50s.

The next monring at about 5am, I shaped it and tried to gently deflate the biggest bubbles, but there were so many of them. I let it rise for about 3.5 hours at room temp (which was in the mid to low 60s that morning), after which it seemed ready. So I put it in the oven after slashing.

It split along one side on the bottom, so I think I underproofed it. What oven spring! Amazing! And full of flavor. A very impressive loaf for company or big parties.

Anyway, here's the pics. We had the loaf with vegetable soup and a salad. There's still PLENTY left ....

Here's a small photo of the loaf before we broke into it. You can see where a big old bubble popped in the oven ....


And here's a larger shot of the crumb, which was wonderful.

AnnieT's picture
AnnieT

JMonkey, fabulous miche, and I am gnashing my teeth in envy. Finally figured I didn't develop the dough enough so my starter wasn't to blame. I baked the monster blob and for a while thought it might work because there was some oven spring, but when I cut into it the crumb was rubbery. Off to the dumpster in the morning. I will try again and hope to come up with something as beautiful as yours, A

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

Hmmmm. If the dough doubled and you let it ferment a lot after that, what probably happened was that the bacteria produced so much acid that it damaged the gluten to the point that it couldn't hold air. I'm sure you'll get it next time! Don't turn in your badge yet! ;-)

mariana's picture
mariana

 

 

I couldn't resist either and baked your miche (85% bread flour, 15% rye). Wow. This is very unusual bread: unusually beautiful and unusually tasty. It was so wet, that I had to fold it over 10 times to achieve a loaf that is taller than a pancake.

Thank you for the great recipe and unusual technique, Crumb Bum.  I was afraid of too much sour, because by the 12 hour mark, pH declined to 4, but it turned out ok, very tasty, actually.  Who knew that 20g of starter could do such a great job! : )

Thank you!

grrranimal's picture
grrranimal

 

Hiya, CrumbBumb:

There's one part of your recipe for this miche that I don't quite follow.  You say:

"I fold until the dough is pretty well developed 4 or 5 times over 2 to 3 hours."

Do you mean you do a quick 3-4 French folds, and do that 4 or 5 times over the first few hours? 

I wouldn't be so anal about it, but I just tried the recipe and ended up with a very lovely caramelized pancake.  So, next time I try it, I'm going to follow your technique more precisely.  Frankly, I think my problem was simply an over-hydrated dough, but I don't want to make any assumptions.  (Starter's fine. Happy, active beasties.)

Thanks, in advance. 

Prandium longa. Vita brevis.

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hey Grrrr

Sorry to hear you had carmelized pancake.  Don't worry about being anal about this as it is one of the most important aspects of this bread.  If it is not developed well enough you end up with a flat loaf.  I have made allot of breadcrumbs tweeking this recipe if you know what I mean.  Here is my method.  I do a quick mix to hydrate, but it is still pretty chunky.  I then frissage or smash/smear the dough with the heel of my hand to break up any unmixed stuff.  I think this also helps strengthen the dough.  After a 30 min rest I give it 3 or 4 quick french folds.  I let it set 30 min and then push it out into a square about 1 inch thick.  I push the dough out  pretty roughly as I am not worried about disturbing gas bubbles.  I only want to strengthen the dough.  I then fold in all the sides to the middle.  I repeat this process until it feels pretty well developed.  I sometimes am only able to get half a letter fold in on the last fold.  I have found that if the dough is developed in this way the next day I have a hard time popping some of the monster bubbles that have formed and have to use a pin.  The dough is that strong.  Hope this helps.

To Everyone who has tried this recipe

I would love to take credit for this but I can't.  It is pain al annciene without the icewater and made with a wild yeast culture.  I learned it from the now banned Sourdoughguy.  He called it Jims basic sandwich bread.  I steered clear of it cause I did not want to make sandwich bread.  I finally tried it and was blown away with the ease and flavor.  I could bake during the week and have time for the kids on the weekend.  I decided to applie this method to my fave bread which is vermont sd made into a big miche.  I used 40g of culture in my first go around and did not develope it enough.  It was way over proofed and baked up flat and the crust was dull.  I have tried as little as 5g of starter and it took 40 hours to double.  I now use 20g for most doughs and cool down the water if I want to delay fermentation.  I did 30g this weekend.  I mixed at 8pm folded till 10:30 It was doubled at 7am I preshaped shaped and baked by 10am.  Point being the method for making this is very flexable and still yeilds a great loaf of bread. 

Da Crumb Bum

PS If you don't want to make a mega loaf you can divide it and shape into sandwich loaves put in tins and bake.  This bread freezes well so if you do make the "hurdy girdy big'un" cut it in half and freeze.      

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hey All

I forgot a couple of things.  JMon great looking loaf.  Mariana, very nice.  I saw pics of your crust on the other thread.  Amazing! Red like the surface of Mars but shiny.  I don't think I could even get that with Krylon and  Turtle Wax.  I did notice that the 15% rye took longer to develope and seemed to stay stickier than the 15% ww version.  I think I did do an extra fold or two but not an overwhelming amount extra.  I am not sure why yours was so gloppy?  I think you could go 70% hydration and the bread would still be great, maybe thats the answer with rye?

I am thinking of trying this using 15% spelt flour.  I have never used this and am curious as to what I can expect.  Thanks 

Da Crumb Bum 

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

Spelt is a weird beast. I'm still getting the hang of it. Not only does whole spelt soak up far less water than whole wheat, but it also later gives up some of the water it has already absorbed.

I made a sandwich loaf last night, 100% whole spelt at 75% hydration (which is a fairly dry loaf for 100% whole wheat) and even then I basically had we ciabatta dough. It did make an OK pan loaf, but I'd suspect that if you use 15% spelt, you'll want to take the hydration down a notch or two.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I have been making this method for a while and have always had good success with it. I think what's happening here to the people who are baking pancakes is that you are trying to bake a free form ciabatta style dough (75% hydration) and treat it like a 65% sfo sourdough loaf. If you simply back off the hydration to 65% I think you discover all your development issues will be gone.

Another thing to remember is that you can develop the gluten at 65% and then add additional water if needed for your particular type of bread. I make this with 20 Grams of starter all the time and develop all the gluten strands necessary to free form a boule with about 40 seconds of French Fold. Maybe I'll fold it one last time at the end. Never but never do I need to fold over and over as the hours become days. This bread needs 12 hours to develop the acids that deliver flavor. Adjust your starter inoculation as crumb bum says above to create an environment that will double your mix in 12-20 hours.

Recommended reading is the SFBI newsletter summer-07 issue. Scroll down to page 3 para 4.) and read about the double hydration technique. Actually this whole newsletter is very helpful if you want to understand how to develop your dough properly.

Eric

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hey Eric

That is good to know.  The reason I have been using 75% is it is about halfway between the 82% Miche on p164 and what I thought would be too dry Vermont p153.  If I could get away with 40 seconds of FF I could really throw this together at the last minute.  I am going to make this at 65% this week and see how it works.

As for flavor developement you are right.  I place my dough in a container sprayed with vegi oil.  6 even 8 hours later all you can smell is the oil.  After about 12 hours you can really smell that wonderful SD smell.  Thanks for the tip.

Da Crumb Bum

ehanner's picture
ehanner

CB, try just leaving a trace of oil from the last batch instead of the pressurized can stuff. If you get the dough developed well you don't need hardly any oil.

One other thing I do is add a handful or two of clear flour. It really helps in development. Depending on the AP you use you might not need it.

Eric

bwraith's picture
bwraith

For the fun of it, I ran my usual "deconstruction of recipes" spreadsheet on the miche recipe as provided by JMonkey above. I have html, mhtml, and xls versions, depending on what works for you to view or download the spreadsheet.

A few things that came up for me looking at this recipe.

1) For my starter, I would expect a mix to bake time of 12 hours at 75F.

2) However, for my starter at 70F, the same recipe will take 17 hours mix to bake.

3) Regardless of how long it takes, the dough will become more stiff when it is a few hours from being ready to bake, since that is when the acids that help condition the dough will begin to reach typical levels when folding would be done in a more traditional process with a larger levain in the dough. Because of that, you may find that folding will be more effective if done about 4-5 hours before bake time, rather than in the hours shortly after mixing.

4) At 75%, the dough would seem noticeably wet if you use a large percentage of white flour as in this recipe. The dough would be especially wet if you use a significant percentage of lower protein AP flour in the range of 11.5% in the dough. On the other hand, if you put in much more whole wheat as in some of my blogged miches with higher whole wheat, then 75% is reasonable or even a little dry. The hydration is in a range where a little extra water or a little less water makes a big difference, and similarly, a lower protein flour will be very different from a higher protein flour and certainly a whole wheat flour. Since the hydration is in a fairly sensitive range right between wet and dry, it's easy to have a result that is "flat as a pancake" just based on flour choice - but also from overproofing, as in the next comment. So, small changes in the hydration can have a big effect on the outcome for this recipe.

5) The difference between underproofed and overproofed is only about 45 minutes at 75F (yes, that's a subjective and rough statement, admittedly). Even though the dough takes 12 hours to 17 hours, depending on temperatures, for my starter (with more variation if you consider starters vary from one to another), the window for good timing on final proof is still just as short as it would be for a more traditional process with a levain intermediate step. That means that temperature variations cause a greater variation in timing than the window you have on correct proofing, so it's easy to make mistakes that would lead to problems with overproofing, if you're thinking the dough should take 17 hours and really it ought to take 12 hours. So you might get no ovenspring or ripped loaves, depending on proofing. It becomes more important to know the timing vs. temperature sensitivity of your starter if you use a very long rise time recipe like this and to be in touch with the idea that the dough may be ready hours earlier or later depending on a few degrees change in temperature.

6) Salt will have a more significant effect on the conditioning of the dough in a wetter range like this, so if you use much less salt than is specified, the dough may be significantly gloppier.

I don't know if this stuff helps at all, but I've played a lot with the pagnotta recipe in my blog and the "one-step" versions of various higher hydration recipes, and these are at least some of the factors that help explain differences in results I've read about up above. I'm also trying to give an exmaple of how you can use some of the rise time modelling concepts I've been mentioning here and there to help sort out some of the things that are going on in a recipe like this that is more sensitive to temperature and hydration variations.

Bill