Transcript of April 2012 #BreadChat (from Twitter)

New for 2012, #BreadChat is a Twitter discussion hour for bakers of yeasted, artisanal breads. The chat is hosted by Chicago Amateur Bread Bakers (@AmateurBakers on Twitter).

At the April 18, 2012 #BreadChat, we were fortunate to co-host once again with Eric Duhamel (@EricFrenchBaker), Master Baker at Daylesford Organic.

During #BreadChat, @AmateurBakers and @EricFrenchBaker led the discussion through a handful of questions about bread ingredients that tend to interfere with the development of the gluten network:

Q1: Nuts, seeds, or whole grains mixed into bread dough can poke holes in the gluten network. When and how should they be added? #BreadChat

Q2: How do fats (e.g., butter, olive oil) added to bread dough affect development of the gluten network? #BreadChat

Q3: The proteins in eggs tend to toughen/strengthen dough. To promote gluten development in dough, when/how should eggs be added? #BreadChat

Below is the transcript (note: it reads from bottom to top, Twitter-style).

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ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @AmateurBakers/BreadChat-ers Keep an eye out the the #BreadChat transcript, soon to be posted @thefreshloaf

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @turanobaking @OnBlank @ThePhoenixBaker Thank you for a lively #BreadChat today. Look forward to seeing you next month! http://www.amateurbakers.org/p/breadchat.html

Miquel Saborit Vilà ‏ @MESKPA @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers @MortalGreenWhim @stirthepots @melbise @weekendbakers Thanks to all. You're the best! ;-) #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @21_urbhousewife @chef_b_hutchins @Crofty Wonderful to have you with us today on #BreadChat. http://www.amateurbakers.org/p/breadchat.html

Calantha Elsby ‏ @calanthaelsby Thank you @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Many questions I had were answered in today's chat! #breadchat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @MortalGreenWhim @MESKPA @stirthepots @melbise @weekendbakers Thank you for sharing #BreadChat with us today. http://www.amateurbakers.org/p/breadchat.html

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers @MortalGreenWhim @MESKPA @stirthepots @melbise @weekendbakers Thanks to all of you. Good evening. #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @MESKPA At the beginning ! Salt at the end is the mark of bad practices introduced by industrial processes for technical purpose. #BreadChat

Sonya Hundal ‏ @MortalGreenWhim @AmateurBakers The heart of the bakery is a Le Panyol clay oven and real fire! #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker @EricFrenchBaker Thank you, Eric. Bon Appétit! #BreadChat

Miquel Saborit Vilà ‏ @MESKPA @EricFrenchBaker Thanks Eric. Salt strengthens the gluten. Best at the beginning of kneading or the end? #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker I'll have to leave you for now as the family is dining... ;-) #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker

@AmateurBakers Thanks to you for your invitation to this #BreadChat.

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @MESKPA Different cereals bring different gliadins and glutenins in different proportions. So, the gluten is different. #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @MortalGreenWhim Do you have (or have access to) a wood-fired oven? #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @MortalGreenWhim @stirthepots @melbise I hope to keep learning as long as possible... #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @MESKPA The gluten is a assemblage of gliadin and glutenin, two proteins which link together to form the gluten net. #BreadChat

Sonya Hundal ‏ @MortalGreenWhim @stirthepots @ericfrenchbaker @melbise #BreadChat I'm self-trained because I fell in love with a wood-fired oven and still learning...

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker Yes, it seems we do, if you're up for it! #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers Many thanks to our erudite and generous co-host, @EricFrenchBaker! #BreadChat

Miquel Saborit Vilà ‏ @MESKPA @EricFrenchBaker Hey guys, one question. When we use different flours (rye, wheat ...) It forms one or more gluten mesh? #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers You'll welcome to stay on and continue the chat #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers And that's a wrap! Thank you, everyone, for a lively April #BreadChat

Jeremy Shapiro ‏ @stirthepots @EricFrenchBaker @melbise I went to school for baking, and did some stages, but love the metier #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @stirthepots The balance between bulk and last fermentation and the effect on the dough... We could talk on this for hours.#BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers No worries, @melbise! @EricFrenchBaker Perhaps that's a topic for a future #BreadChat ... amateur bakers going pro

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @MortalGreenWhim The experience can also replace partially a thermometer, indeed.#BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @stirthepots @melbise Almost all the members of my team were not bakers originally. I trained them. #BreadChat

Melissa Bedinger ‏ @melbise @AmateurBakers Whoops! Will do, apologies #BreadChat

Sonya Hundal ‏ @MortalGreenWhim @weekendbakers #BreadChat I only have a room thermometer so I can moan about how cold it is in the bakery! Smell also a fermentation guide.

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @melbise Please limit your #BreadChat tweets to discussion of bread-baking techniques.

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @melbise Just tell that you want to learn professional methods. Home baking experience is usually not very comparable. #BreadChat

Jeremy Shapiro ‏ @stirthepots @melbise And can you become a baker if your a chef? Or wanting to change direction? #BreadChat

Jeremy Shapiro ‏ @stirthepots @EricFrenchBaker Does that change the structure or final shape of dough? Besides the bubbles under the skin #BreadChat

Sonya Hundal ‏ @MortalGreenWhim @stirthepots @ericfrenchbaker #BreadChat I don't retard but ambient temp of the bakery can have this effect. Dough temp becomes critical

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers @melbise @stirthepots A good probe thermometer is, indeed, a very good tool for consitensy. #BreadChat

Jeremy Shapiro ‏ @stirthepots @EricFrenchBaker Salut Eric! #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @stirthepots Nice Teff Miche! http://www.stirthepots.com/2012/04/teff-miche.html #BreadChat

Jeremy Shapiro ‏ @stirthepots @EricFrenchBaker I asked, my bulk for a dough was a time constraint.Had to cook, so I bulked one hour, 4 hours final rise.#BreadChat

Melissa Bedinger ‏ @melbise Question: what's the best way to approach a baker for work experience if you have only done home baking in the past? #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @melbise @stirthepots @EricFrenchBaker We keep instant-read thermometers around, to check dough temperature #BreadChat http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004XSC4/ref=oh_o01_s00_i04_details

Weekend Bakery ‏ @weekendbakers We had a lot of use from our dough thermometer especially in the beginning, also to get a feel for fermentation times #BreadChat

Jeremy Shapiro ‏ @stirthepots @melbise @EricFrenchBaker Thanks, used in pizza dough, but don't like the effect as much on bread. Did it with Teff MIche #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker You can knead you dough at an average temperature and, then, cool it down to make the fermentation longer. #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker A cold fermentation doesn't mean a cold dough. A cold dough tend to relax usually. #BreadChat

Jeremy Shapiro ‏ @stirthepots @MortalGreenWhim @EricFrenchBaker What about cold bulk in retard? #BreadChat.

Melissa Bedinger ‏ @melbise @stirthepots @EricFrenchBaker Check out Peter Reinhart's web site or books - writes a lot about 'cold' [long] fermentations #breadchat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Special reason : start with one dough and, then, add some eggs and other ingredients for an other recipe. #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker When making panettone (lots butter+egg yolk) would you recommend emulsifying yolks+eggs, before adding to dough? #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers When you talk about temperature, it's important to consider the ambient temperature and the dough temperature. #BreadChat

Sonya Hundal ‏ @MortalGreenWhim @EricFrenchBaker @stirthepots sorry , keep forgetting the #BreadChat . Yes, slow bulk fermentation is best!

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker A special reason, such as? #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Eggs are usually added straight at the beginning, except if there is a special reason for not doing so. #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker @stirthepots Temperature also a factor. Colder the dough, longer one can ferment it, without over-fermenting it. #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Concerning the eggs, their main usage is usually for the taste and for their emulsifying properties. #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @melbise Everything which has an effect on the micro-organisms will slow down the fermentation (acidity, salt, sugar, spices...).#BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @stirthepots Anyway, whatever is your choice, the bulk proofing should always develop the right consistence of the dough. #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @stirthepots I'd say that a long bulk proofing increase usually the quality of the dough if not pushed to far. #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @stirthepots Welcome to #BreadChat!

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @stirthepots Hi Jeremy ! Glad to chat with you.#BreadChat

Melissa Bedinger ‏ @melbise @OnBlank heard somewhere that cinnamon's ph retards yeast, & microbial activity slows fermentation. Same for ginger (& garlic?) #breadchat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers Q3: The proteins in eggs tend to toughen/strengthen dough. To promote gluten development in dough, when/how should eggs be added? #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers Let's move on to question 3 #BreadChat

Jeremy Shapiro ‏ @stirthepots #BreadChat @EricFrenchBaker what's your idea on shorter bulk ferment, to longer final or visa versa? Advantages, disadvantages?

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers You need to see the gluten net like a rubber string net in which you put some links for stabilising the edifice.#BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker Yes, I agree. Visualizing the chemistry going on in the bread dough gives me a better feel for bread baking #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @ThePhoenixBaker @weekendbakers It's true that adding ingredients to a bulk dough helps to make a wider range of products.#BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Talking about covalent links is a bit of chemistry but it helps to understand the structure of the dough.#BreadChat

Turano Baking Co. ‏ @turanobaking Do not knead after bulk fermentation because this leads to a denser/tighter crumb. Getting technical in #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @OnBlank "Of course! I've had a nice dough ball, decided to add garlic olive oil and the ball just fell apart." Remember hashtag #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers It's usually better to add these ingredients at the end of the kneading, when the dough is formed. #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @PastryCraft Welcome to #BreadChat!

Aidan and Lisa ‏ @ThePhoenixBaker @weekendbakers that's right is a great way to make lrg doughs and separate and add diff flavours etc #breadchat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker "Gluten net re-enforced by creation of covalent di-sulfur links, a result of yeast fermentation" Great stuff. #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @weekendbakers The sourdough strengthen the gluten net usually but it's not really the acidity. It's more the oxidative effect. #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers In lower proportion, they can be used as lubricant for increasing the kneading time. #BreadChat

Weekend Bakery ‏ @weekendbakers #breadchat does the acid from sourdough strengthen or weaken the gluten?

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker Confused . . . when is the best time to add seeds/nuts/whole grains to breads? #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers The fats can retard the formation of the gluten net when in high content. #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers The gluten net is re-enforced by the creation of covalent links called di-sulfur links.#BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker If you want to add ingredients after the bulk proofing, this should be only on a soft dough, exclusively by a folding process. #BreadChat

Weekend Bakery ‏ @weekendbakers @ThePhoenixBaker #breadchat you probably do this to simplify dough making for different types of loaf?

Steven Croft ‏ @Crofty @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers so a balance: gently releasing large bubbles that might burst in oven vs keeping gluten structure #breadchat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Usually, this leads to a denser/tighter crumb which is seen as a defect in proper traditional artisan bakery. #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker Interesting . . . what do the molecules produced by fermentation do to re-enforce the gluten network? #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Because it mainly damages the net structure re-enforced by the fermentation chemistry. #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers Q2: How do fats (e.g., butter, olive oil) added to bread dough affect development of the gluten network? #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers Moving on to question 2 . . . #BreadChat

Aidan and Lisa ‏ @ThePhoenixBaker @EricFrenchBaker overnight bulk of 18hr then add seeds or nuts then rest for 1hr its the way we do it! #breadchat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker @ThePhoenixBaker "Do not knead after bulk fermentation" Why? Because it will de-gas the dough? #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @MortalGreenWhim Welcome to #BreadChat!

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @ThePhoenixBaker There shouldn't be actually any kneading process after the bulk fermentation but always before. #BreadChat

Sonya Hundal ‏ @MortalGreenWhim @AmateurBakers Hello. Made it for #BreadChat :)

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @Crofty @EricFrenchBaker Yes, knead well to develop gluten. When kneading by hand, I find it's almost impossible to over-knead. #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @ThePhoenixBaker Adding the seeds after the bulk fermentation can actually damage the gluten net. #BreadChat

Weekend Bakery ‏ @weekendbakers #breadchat We add nuts, raisins in breads like stollen in last minute of kneading process with spiral mixer, works well every time.

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @Crofty That's it ! #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker Wholemeal flour can be a bit hard to digest. Mixing flours is interesting. Anyway, sourdough fermentation is essential here. #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @weekendbakers Welcome to #BreadChat!

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @ThePhoenixBaker Welcome back to #BreadChat!

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @21_urbhousewife Actually making a 100 % wholemeal loaf is mainly technically interesting. #BreadChat

Steven Croft ‏ @Crofty @EricFrenchBaker so ensure you've got good gluten development first? #breadchat

Weekend Bakery ‏ @weekendbakers Hello from Holland tonight #breadchat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @OnBlank Welcome back to #BreadChat!

Aidan and Lisa ‏ @ThePhoenixBaker @AmateurBakers always add after first bulk fermentation if a yeasted dough! If sour mix in before u start folding the dough #breadchat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker Re: second phase of kneading. Is the 1st phase mixing together only flour and water, to develop strong gluten? #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker Adding the seeds late in the kneading avoid to retard/interfere in the gluten net formation. #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @turanobaking Welcome to #BreadChat!

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @Crofty @chef_b_hutchins Great to have you back this month! #BreadChat

Victoria Blogg ‏ @21_urbhousewife I'm desperate to make 100% wwheat loaf but my 75/50 white/wwheat loaves aren't rising! Too scared to leave out white altogether! #BreadChat

Turano Baking Co. ‏ @turanobaking @AmateurBakers Good day to all participating in today's #BreadChat . Excited to be here and read everyone's tweets!

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @chef_b_hutchins Welcome to #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker Hi Steven and Brian. Welcome for #BreadChat.

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker Q1: Nuts, seeds, whole grains mixed into dough can poke holes in gluten network. When/how should they be added? #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers This kind of ingredients should be usually added at the second phase of the kneading. #BreadChat

Steven Croft ‏ @Crofty Hi all on #breadchat tonight

Brian Hutchins ‏ @chef_b_hutchins Hello - @AmateurBakers and @EricFrenchBaker #BreadChat

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker Do we have some specific questions on this or do we start a kind of list and problems ? #BreadChat

Victoria Blogg ‏ @21_urbhousewife Tuning into #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers Q1: Nuts, seeds, or whole grains mixed into bread dough can poke holes in the gluten network. When and how should they be added? #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers @EricFrenchBaker and we will kick off the discussion with question 1 #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers This month we discuss bread ingredients that tend to interfere with the development of the gluten network. #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers For those of you just joining us here at #BreadChat, a short description of what we're about: http://www.amateurbakers.org/p/breadchat.html

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers We have some questions submitted in advance by bakers, & we'll start with those in a few minutes #BreadChat

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers And remember to mark all of your tweets with #BreadChat, so everyone can follow the discussion.

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers Welcome to #BreadChat, everyone! We're here with our co-host, Eric Duhamel @EricFrenchBaker. Please say hello when you come online.

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Good evening, afternoon, ... to all for #BreadChat.

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers Hello, @EricFrenchBaker ! Welcome back to #BreadChat. It's wonderful to have you as our co-host again this month.

Eric Duhamel ‏ @EricFrenchBaker @AmateurBakers Ready for #BreadChat. ;-)

ChicagoAmateurBakers ‏ @AmateurBakers #BreadChat starts in 5 minutes. Welcome, bread bakers!