The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Bread work flow ideas

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SDbaker's picture
SDbaker

Bread work flow ideas

Hi everyone, hope you can help me with a better work flow for yeasted and levain dough during the week.  I get up quite early for work, and don't get home till about 5-6.  There is a window for bread making around 6-9 PM.  I have most weekends off and often get up early on weekends. 

I was wondering what other people are doing to make bread during a busy work week and still have time for dinner, errands, family etc.  I give most away, but just enjoy making it and trying new recipes.  I would like to make mid-week and weekend loaves.  Don't mind using the fridge for haulting the process at various stages, but can't seem to get it right without frequent over fermentation, leading to anemic crust and limitted oven spring.  Looking for a simple process that works in the evenings over a few days.  Biggest challenge is timing the proofing, going out for errands.  My levain is probably not active enough, thus the long fermentation times I am getting.  What stage to place on counter, fridge, etc.

looking forward to your thoughts,

SD Baker

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hey SD Baker

I have the perfect bread for you.  It is the one stage sourdough sandwich bread posted on this site by the now banned Sourdough Guy.  Don't be put off by the sandwich bread title you can change the hydration and shape and make whatever you want out of it.  The main thing when doing this bread is the technique.

Take 20-35 grams of active starter and disolve it in 765g of low chlorine or filtered water.  Add to the water and starter, 1090 grams of flour and 20g of salt. Mix the salt into the flour first.  Stir until all the flour is wet and set aside for an hour.  Tip the dough out onto the counter and do a "french fold" or do a "letter fold" 4 or 5 times. Put into a clean oiled container and allow to double.  This should take around 16 to 20 hours.  After it has doubled turn it out shape and allow to proof 4 hours or so and bake as normal.  This recepie makes a 70% dough.  I have found that 35 grams of my starter will double after 16 hours on a 70 degree day.  I scaled back to 20 grams or so to get the full 20.  Cool thing about this is you can throw it together 8 or 9 pm.  let it set until 4 or 5 the next day, shape and bake around 9 or 10pm.  If you make it with cold water I imagine you could stretch the fermentation time out even longer.  I also sometimes give it a second folding the first night if I think it needs it.  This bread also has wonderful flavor as well.  Hope this helps.

Da Crumb Bum  

SDbaker's picture
SDbaker

OK Crumb Bum..making the first run.  Using 35g of starter since mine is not that active at the moment.  Used warmer water too in order to help the yeasties.

SD Baker

mountaindog's picture
mountaindog

Hi SD Baker and Crumb Bum,

Just thought I'd let you know that I too am in process of using Crumb Bum's/SDG's method outlined above but using both the Columbia and Thom Leonard flour mixtures/ratios. I used 30 g starter in each batch.

I've never tried such a no-knead/folding only approach before with so little starter, and so far I am really impressed with how easy this was. The key is definitley to mix all of the flours and salt THOROUGHLY before adding the liquid and starter so you don't have to stir too much. My KA dough wisk that ehanner likes too worked very well for this. My two doughs are fermenting at home now - I made them after dinner last night, easily did the stretch and folds after an hour, and hopefully when I get home from work today, they'll be doubled and ready to divide, shape, and proof so I can bake tonight, leaving my weekend free to work in the garden.

Crumb bum, thanks for re-iterating the SDG method here so clearly and succintly, it finally dawned on me how simple it would be to adapt any of my favorite hearth bread recipes to this method based on your ratios above. I had not paid too much attention to this before because I thought it was for "sandwich" bread.

I'll keep you posted and SDBaker, I look forward to seeing your results too.

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hey MDog

I was looking back through this post answering a question and notice you were going to give this a try with the Columbia and TL's Country Loaf.  How did it work out for you?  I have been doing this with a spinnoff of Hammelmans Miche Point A Calier.  I use 2% starter added to all the flour and water and salt and have been getting good results.  It also seemed to help to lower the hydration to 75% and fold to develope dough almost fully before letting it set.  Just curious how it went for you.  Take care

Da Crumb Bum

OGB's picture
OGB

Dear Crumb,

First of all forgive my greeness. I've been baking on and off for a few years with very little success and am now making another attempt at it. I've been busy studying this site for about a month now, trying to learn the language you all speak before I chime in with questions. And for my first post I will be asking you to dumb it down for me a bit....

Is there any chance on converting the measurements into cups/Tbls/tsp in the above recipe?

I know I need a scale, it's just that the Mrs. is not completely on board with the time spent on my yet to be successful bread hobby, so dropping cash on equipment would sour the situation even worse.

 

thanks in advance,

 

OGB

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hey OGB

No scale, that is just plain crazy.  Actually, I did not use a scale for quite a while myself.  You do not need it to make great bread but it does help with consistancy.  You can convert recipes you see here knowing 1 ounce equals 28.3grams.  1 cup of flour weighs 4.5 oz or 127grams and 1 cup of water is 8 oz or 226grams.  The recipe above in volume looks like this.  Check my math if you will as I am not always all "there" if you know what I mean.

8.5 cups of flour

3 1/3 cups water

4t salt

heaping T starter give or take a little, liquid or firm your choice. 

Da Crumb Bum

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I bought a couple of these. Measures 1g to 5kg. The round part is 5 1/2 inches in diameter. If there is enough light to read it, it works. Lightweight and solar powered, no batteries! Easy to hide or throw into a suitcase. --Mini Oven

http://www.cookplanet.com/catalog/kaiser-solarkuechenwaage-solaris-p-820.html

kauseway's picture
kauseway

Hey Crumb Bum,

New to baking so I may be biting off more than I can chew. (Yes I just said that.)  I tried your recipe but folded it once every 4 hours until I went to bed. Also, using a home made starter I have that seems to be very active.  It doubled early the next day, but not sure what time.  So it sat out all day until I got home.  Turned it out and was full of air.  Tried to make it into a Boule without bunching it down as described in BBA.  But the doug was so loose it just seeped thru my hands and fingers.  I could not tighten up the skin.  Eventually put it on a sheet pan to let it proof for 3 to 4 hours but it just lost its shape and spilled over the sheet pan. The consistency was very mushy and the outer surface was not anything like BBA shows on Miches.  Lots of holes on rough skin and appeared to be more like a super thick batter. One last thing. I am using fresh ground whole white wheat and 15% rye.

 1) Did I let it go to long letting it set all day?  I guess over ferment?

 2) Do I need to put a little more flour in there to get a tighter dough?  I assume that 70% hydration means it is going to be loose.

3) Should I have just folded it 4 to 5 times at once and let it set over night? Instead of once an hour?

4) In the final proof should I do it in a bowl and then try to turn it out on a sheet pan when ready to bake?

Thanks for any information. 

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Kway

I hope I can offer some help.  I have to admit I have never used freshly ground white wheat.  I have used 15% rye in a dough and found it made the dough much more sticky.  I would say folding it more would help.  I fold it every 30 or 40 minutes for 2 or 3 hours before I go to bed.  When I letter fold using this method I realy push it out into a square about 1 inch thick.  I am not worried about being gentle and preserving gas as there is no gas at this point.  I am trying to develope the doughs gluten.  When I am done with folding it is what I would call almost fully developed.

70% dough should be a little sticky for the first fold but firm up and be fairly easy to handle from the 2nd fold on.

My last dough was doubled in 10 hours and I thought it was overwith.  I punched it down and let it go another 10 hours outside were it was cooler.  I was able to preshape and shape just fine though and I think this had to do with the fact that I had developed the dough enough

I do my final proof in cloth dusted with rice flour and placed into a large collander good side down.

I have been tweeking this recipe and how I handle it for the better part of 6 months and I think that lots of my early failures were because of underdeveloped dough.  Hope this helps.

Da Crumb Bum 

SDbaker's picture
SDbaker

Thanks Crumb Bum!  This is the type of info I am seeking. A few Q's:

Approx how much salt (sea and/or kosher) by volume?  My scale is good, but goes in 5 gram increments.  With such a small volume, my chance for error is pretty high.

I might need a shorter second proofing time.  Any reason to think using a warmer place, less time would affect flavor?

michaeld's picture
michaeld

Another variation is to slow down the proof. Try shapping and then proofing for 12-24 hours in the fridge. Then when ready to bake just bring it out of the fridge straight into the oven.

SDbaker's picture
SDbaker

When proofing in the fridge for a day, what are the indications of "ready to bake" since time, even at room temp, isn't always the best indicator.

Thanks,

SD Baker

michaeld's picture
michaeld

The usual indicators still apply.
A shapped loaf typically needs to double in volume. Just how much volume will depend on the recipe.
A better indicator is the indentation test of the dough respons. Gently press a wet or floured finger into the dough. If the dough is ready then the indentation left by your finger will slowly fill back in. If the dough needs more time then the indentation will quickly fill back in.

SDbaker's picture
SDbaker

OK, so a colder temp dough will give the same response?  If so, this just got a lot easier.

 

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hey SD Baker

I weighed out 20g of salt and it came to approx. 3 and 3/4 teaspoons.

As for proofing in the fridge I have had some issues getting the timing right after I remove it.  I find it very hard to tell when its ready.  On large loaves I find overproofing to be my problem.  I have had better luck fridging the unshaped dough  and shaping after it comes up to temp. giving it folds when nessessary to strengthen and bring up to temp. quicker.  While these methods work, I find I still spend a fair amount of the ever so valuable commodity "time" waiting for that perfect moment to pop it in the oven.  With the one stage method described above I "mix it and forget it" for lack of a better discription for 20 hours.  The only time I watch it closly is toward the end of the proof.  I bet you could even mix up this dough 2 days ahead fridge it and 20 hours before you want to bake take it out, let it proof shape and bake.  Cool thing about this is the dough  sits in its container at room temp and gets really tasty without you needing to do anything.  It almost feels as though you are cheating it is so easy.  Give it a whirl and let us know what you think, and get ready to have great bread and your whole weekend both.

Da Crumb Bum

SDbaker's picture
SDbaker

Crumb Bum.. you're "da" man.  Thanks for weighing out the salt.  Was that sea salt or kosher or iodized?  

Can't wait to try out your recipe.

SD Baker

SDbaker's picture
SDbaker

Hey Bum de la Crumb... making another batch of your recipe.  Calculated 20g of Kosher Salt at 4.16 tsp based on the back of the container, so we'll call that 4 tsp, rounding the final tsp.

 This batch, did about 150 g of whole wheat, 300 g of KA's Rye Flour blend (just noticed it was a "blend") and the remainded KA regular flour.   Very curious how it turns out!


SD Baker

crumb bum's picture
crumb bum

Hey SD Baker

That salt volume is for regular Mortons salt you can get anywhere.  Sorry I did not specify the first time.  I hope you enjoy this bread.

Da Crumb Bum

Rosalie's picture
Rosalie

No, not me.  But I remember reading some bread book where the woman who wrote it told how she worked bread into her day.  She didn't let little things like work and errands get in her way.  She put the dough in a cooler and hauled it around with her so she could tend to it during the day.  Her friends thought she was crazy.  I think it's a bit much, myself.  But it's an idea.

Rosalie

marcsababa's picture
marcsababa

I loved this recipe, but I was wondering if it could be made less sour some how. Can it be raised a little faster with a little more yeast to become less sour? I am not sure how this works, but I found it more sour than the bread I used to make with 1 cup of starter per loaf over almost 10 hours.

 

How do these things work exactly?