The Fresh Loaf

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Organic Wholegrains + 40% Rye with Caraway

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PiPs's picture
PiPs

Organic Wholegrains + 40% Rye with Caraway

My stocks have been running low. Grains, flour, salt and even the bread in the freezer have all taken a beating over a busy Christmas period.

With suppliers back on board after holidays I was more than a little relieved when a new shipment of biodynamic wheat and spelt grains finally arraived.

Along with the grain, I was also in need of white flour. The idea of leaving a gentler footprint to me means that if I have to use processed white flour then it should be from a local and organic producer. So for this reason I have switched to organic plain white flour from the Kialla Pure Foods mill only 150 km away. (90 miles) Kialla’s plain flour with a protein level of 12.5% is stronger than the bakers flour I been currently using but has a slightly creamier colour and chewier mouth feel. For this weekends bake though, I wanted wholegrains and organic. I hadn’t planned on baking any rye until a friend suggested she would like to try a lighter rye sourdough. Nat and I have a strong appreciation for caraway seeds with rye so this was suggested as well.


Organic 40% Rye Sourdough with caraway

Formula

Overview

Weight

%

Total dough weight

1800g

 

Total flour

1071g

100%

Total water

769g

72%

Total salt

19g

1.8%

Prefermented flour

428g

40%

Desired dough temperature 26-27°C

 

 

 

 

 

Rye sour build – 12-14 hrs 22-24°C

 

 

Starter (not included in final dough)

21g

5%

Freshly milled rye flour

428g

100%

Water

428g

100%

 

 

 

Final dough

 

 

Rye sour

856g

133%

Organic plain flour

643g

100%

Water

341g

53%

Salt

19g

1.8% of total flour

Caraway seeds

19g

3%

Method

  1. Mix rye sour and leave overnight to ferment
  2. Next day disperse rye sour in remaining water and add flour.
  3. Knead for 5 mins (this is sticky and uncomfortable)
  4. Add salt and knead for a further 10 mins until dough starts to show signs of smoothness.
  5. Gently mix in caraway seeds until combined.
  6. Bulk ferment one hour
  7. Gently preshape. Bench rest 20 mins. Gently shape into batards.
  8. Final proof was one hour at room temperature (27°C).
  9. Load into oven with steam at 230°C for 10 mins then reduce temperature to 200°C and bake a further 30 mins. 

The rye sour had developed nicely and apart from the seemingly unending stickiness of kneading, the dough eventually bulk fermented into a smooth dough that shaped quite easily.

The final proof kept me only my toes as I was mowing the backyard and ducking inside every 15 minutes to check on it’s progress, as it has been quite hot and humid recently.

I am particularly fond of the crumb colour with the caraway seeds hidden amongst the rye bran. The flavour is a really nice balance of a subtle rye tang with a puff of caraway scent on some bites.

 

 

I also baked a pair of simple organic wholegrain sourdoughs - the first breads for our household this year. The levain contains a proportion of Kialla plain flour so approximately 90% of the flour is freshly milled wholegrains.

I tried a few new procedures with this bake. I milled the wheat grains in two passes. The first pass cracked the grains before passing them through the mill again at a finer setting. This didn’t produce much heat in the flour and I ended up with softer feeling flour than in the past.

The other change was the fold in the bulk ferment. I recently read a comment by proth5 on the timing of a stretch-and-fold in a two hour bulk ferment. (sorry Pat I can’t remember where you posted it) If the dough is already well developed before the bulk ferment, perhaps a stretch-and-fold could occur earlier in the bulk ferment allowing some larger gas pockets to develop in the 2nd half of the bulk ferment.


Organic Wholegrain Sourdough

Formula

Overview

Weight

%

Total dough weight

2000g

 

Total flour

1081g

100%

Total water

919g

85%

Total salt

21g

2%

Prefermented flour

270g

25%

 

 

 

Levain build – 4-5 hrs 26-27°C

 

 

Starter (60g not included in final dough)

100g

40%

Flour (I use a flour mix of 70% Organic plain flour, 18% fresh milled wheat, 9% fresh milled spelt and 3% fresh milled rye)

240g

100%

Water

120g

50%

 

 

 

Final dough

 

 

Levain

405g

50%

Freshly milled organic wheat flour

703g

86%

Freshly milled organic rye flour

108g

14%

Water

784g

96%

Salt

21g

2%

 

Method

  1. Mix levain and leave to ferment for 4-5 hours
  2. Mill flours and allow them to cool before mixing with cold water from fridge (hold back 50 grams of water) and autolyse four hours.
  3. Add levain to autolyse then knead (French fold) 5 mins. Return the dough to a bowl and add salt and remaining 50 grams of water and squeeze through bread to incorporate (dough will separate then come back together smoothly) then knead a further 10 mins.
  4. Bulk ferment two hours with one stretch-and-fold after 30 mins.
  5. Preshape. Bench rest 20 mins. Shape.
  6. Load into oven with steam at 230°C for 10 mins then reduce temperature to 200°C and bake a further 30 mins.

 

This has become familiar dough for me to mix. At 85% hydration doubts can creep into my thinking as the initial mix feels sticky and loose. Press on, add the salt and feel relief as the dough tightens up and releases cleanly from the bench.

The dough felt strong even after shifting the stretch-and-fold forward 30 mins so I left it untouched for the remaining time and was rewarded with light bubbly dough ready for preshaping. I am quite pleased with the proofing on both of the loaves and find I am becoming braver at judging their readiness for the oven. They sprang beautifully on a hot stone.

Some rye bran is visible scattered throughout the moist crumb which contains no hint of sour. The change in bulk ferment procedure has possibly led to a slightly more irregular crumb, but this will need to be experimented with and expanded.

 

Another busy day in the kitchen which was balanced by an equally busy day doing yard work.  The sun is finally shining here after a day of humid grey skys. We plan to make the most of it.

Cheers,
Phil 

 

Comments

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Phil,

Hummmm...a new little twist - at least new to me....I have yet to bake a loaf where the starter/leaven outweighs the flour in the final dough....closest I have come is with PR's whole grain breads where his starters make up about 45% of the total formula...

So why doesn't your 40% rye loaf taste totally sour????

Sure made a beautiful loaf and I love your scoring!  I have a brotform in the shape you used but have never tried tapering the loaf...something else new to try...

The 'envelope' is being stretched once again :-)

Weather is humid here today too ..... it is snowing in my little corner of this planet :-) 

Take Care,

Janet

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Hi Janet,

They are predicting a scorcher of a day here ... would love to be in the snow right now!

I think Andy did a great job explaining the flavour profile of the 40% Rye ... its a very nice combination. I think the slashes had more to do with the final shape than me tapering the dough.

All the best,
Phil 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Phil,

Both these breads look sensational; your photography work captures so much.

I so wish I could source local organic flour with such levels of gluten potential; serves me right for living in Northumberland, perhaps?

@Janet: whilst the weight of Phil's starter may be greater than the final flour in the dough, I don't think that is of much significance necessarily.   Concentrate on the name Phil has given his bread; "40% Rye...", and that it is the rye flour element which is used in the leaven.   The 40% pre-fermented flour is a far more important piece of data than the relative weight of starter to the final flour in the dough.

All good wishes

Andy

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Thanks Andy,

You know the more I look the more I only find white winter wheat here. I would love to find some red spring or similar variety here. I will keep searching.

Cheers,
Phil 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Andy,

I know you have explained this to me before but I still have a hard time grasping the concept....my brain thinks more starter used = more of the pre-fermented flavor and texture into the final dough....

I do get that with more starter your proofing time will be shorter hence the flavor won't be so 'sour'.....what makes this hard to grasp is that I can't physically taste the difference due to not being able to eat what I bake....My observations come from how the dough behaves because that I can see and use to help me grasp these finer details of baking...

I guess some things I simply won't be able to totally comprehend....

Thanks for your patience!

Janet

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Janet,

I don't think this is necessarily so:

I do get that with more starter your proofing time will be shorter hence the flavor won't be so 'sour'.

I still maintain it is easiest to look at the proportion of pre-fermented flour in the formula to get a basic idea of the formula and how you can expect the dough to perform and taste.

From there, then look at the pre-ferment, but in more detail.   Times and temperatures are of equal significance to water levels in the dough/batter.   Take a good look at Phil's formula:

He has 100% hydration, fermented over 12 - 14 hours at 22 - 24*C.   Big additional factor as well: he uses freshly milled flour, and it's wholegrain!   Impact of flour source: potentially rampant enzyme activity due to presence of so much fibre, mineral and vitamin content.   It will also, more than likely, be thirsty too.   I'm imagining myself into Phil's boots now, but I take it that he used a relatively cool temperature to try to control this, along with keeping his sour reasonably stiff.   Notes on this: Phil livers in Brisbane and it's very hot there...[lucky man!], and his starter will be quite stiff on account of thirsty flour.   The time to me is quite short for a rye sour, and again, I think that is Phil expecting his fresh flour to respond and ferment quickly; I need 16 - 18 hours here in the UK, with a lot cooler temp, and with 167% hydration to fully mature my rye sours.   But, I think this leads to a genuinely sour culture.

Surely, at 40%, and genuinely sour, this will have more impact on a sour flavour profile than any other factor?   I would expect the opposite to you, and believe Phil's bread will have more sour notes to it than one made with a lower level of pre-fermented flour; as he describes it: "subtle rye tang"...sounds delicious, yes?

Generally, yes, the more starter used, the more pre-fermented flour; but you have to take account of the amount of water in the pre-ferment.   An immediate reference to the formula should tell you the proportion of pre-fermented flour; I suspect you are over-complicating the basic fundamental.   Get the big picture first, then go on to analyse this in more detail, using the parameters discussed above.   I offer this as genuine, and hopefully best, advice.

Phil, sorry, no intention to hijack your thread; I  hope you think it links quite well with your lovely caraway rye bread.

Best wishes

Andy

PiPs's picture
PiPs

No problem at all Andy,

You always explain it so well ... and Yes it is HOT here ... last night was very uncomfortable ... 28C with 85% humidity at 10:00pm!. Bleurgh!

It has taken time for me to get the best from my freshly milled rye sours. At first I was fermented them too long and they were breaking down to far. Now that I have shortened the amount of build time, reduced the hydration and temperatures I am getting much better results.

I clearly remember when my thinking finally clicked and I started to notice the prefermented flour percentages. Made a huge difference in my understanding of what I was doing.

Cheers,
Phil

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Phil,

Not sure how my responses are stacking up here....my response to Andy fell under your response to him....who knows where this will end up.

Anyway, thank you for letting me side track your thread a bit....sorry....

Take Care,

Janet

PiPs's picture
PiPs

:) No probs Janet,

Anytime ... Cheers,
Phil 

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Andy,

I appreciate you breaking this down for me....The light bulb just went on after the 3rd reading....phew.

Had to smile at your comment on perhaps I may be over-complicating things a bit...how kind to put it those words....my mind has a mind of it's own and it's favorite pass time is to over think anything it can get it's brain waves on..... :-0  Quite a quagmire to wade through but I also possess a persistence that won't give up until it is satisfied with something.... :-)  My brain is quite a lively place at times!  Whoever put IT in charge of ME was clearly not in their right mind :-)

Take Care and thanks once again for your help!
Janet 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Janet,

I am actually encouraging you to "wade through the quagmire"...sort of!   I'm trying to give you a few solid flagstones to stand on so you don't sink.   Keep on investigating..it is a complicated subject, although I have come across many wanna-be bakers who deny this is the case

So glad to hear about the light bulb moment

Best wishes

Andy

Janetcook's picture
Janetcook

Andy,

You are one of the people here who has given me lots of flagstones to stand on and I soooo appreciate that!!! Baking bread without being able to taste what I am making has been a huge challenge but because of people like you I am finding a more solid ground and senses - smell and touch - are awakiening in a way they never have before....

People like you also save my family from my endless questions on texture, flavor and the overall essence of what I bake.  :-)

I am hooked on baking....not sure why but I do find it endlessly fascinating. After a year of sd baking I am just beginning to get a feel for things by merely reading recipes/formulas....the flagstones are becoming more solid!

Thank you so much for all of your continued help!

Take Care,

Janet

Mebake's picture
Mebake

I thoroughly enjoy your posts, Phil! Lovely photographs, exceptionally elegant looking breads.. The crumb on the 40% Rye is very open and attractive. Everything looks perfect! it is really worth spending the half the day..

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Thanks so much Khalid,

The 40% rye's crumb was much more open than I imagined it would be and the organic flour led to a slightly chewier crumb than in the past. My day of doing not much ended up turning into more yard work. Oh well :)

Cheers,
Phil 

wassisname's picture
wassisname

Ah... two of my favorite breads beautifully crafted.  Your attention to detail is as inspiring as ever, Phil.  Wonderful stuff!

Marcus

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Thanks Marcus,

They are favourites of ours as well.

Cheers,
Phil 

Syd's picture
Syd

Lovely baking and excellent photography Phil.  I was about to ask why the colour of the loaf in the final pic was so dark ( I was wondering if you had used a special flour or squid ink) when I realised it was black and white!  :)

Best,

Syd

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Thanks Syd,

The black and white was a late addition ... would like to experiment more with it. I am sure I have seen someone baking with squid ink :)

Cheers,
Phil 

Jeremy's picture
Jeremy

Your about as active baking as I am mate! Lovely as usual tooo! I just made a Rheinische Schwartzbrot from Backer Süpke in Thuringia with some altus...amazing, black as in burnt but deep flavors and just amazing smeared with butter, can't wait to park some ham on it too!

All the best in the new year Phil!

Jeremy

 

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Obsessive? ... maybe dedicated :)

I only bake what we need to bake ... there was a time however when this was not the case :)

The Rheinische Schwartzbrot sounds amazing. Going on your blog soon?

Cheers,
Phil 

varda's picture
varda

but wanted to say what a great photographic exploration of your bake.   It all looks terrific.   Since I don't bake with freshly milled flours, I don't have much of a sense of it, other than to note how good it all looks.   Will be fascinated to see what you do in future with black and white photography. (Or squid ink of course.)  -Varda

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Thanks for the compliment Varda,

It is hard to describe freshly milled flour... and I didn't get much of sense of it by reading about it.

I wish I could transport the aromas and taste of flour fresh straight out of the mill. The bread has a really clean taste ... thats the best way for me to describe it. 

Cheers,
Phil 

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

by what you have accomplished, Phil.  I'd love to have a taste of either bread.

Paul

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Thanks Paul,

I think the Rye bread was our favourite ... flavour ++

Cheers,
Phil 

dabrownman's picture
dabrownman

your 40% Rye Sourdough with caraway in final proof right now and old Betsy (my electric GE oven)  is heating up to 5oo degrees.  I made one small loaf by cutting your recipe by a factor of 4.  It won't look anything like yours, but I hope it tastes a good as I think it will.  I love rye with caraway.

Thanks for the recipe

Paul, the taste is the best part.  This a a fine bread and everything you want in a rye.  I will post a couple

of pic's of my poor attempt to do Phil's rye bread justice.  Sadly, as predicted, it wasn't up to his standards by far.  But, hopefully one day....... Also sorry my cell phone takes such horrid pictures. 

I just love this bread - plain, buttered, toasted, creme cheese and I'm guessing lox will be next of there is any bread left to put it on :-)

 

PiPs's picture
PiPs

So glad you liked it!

No worries about the phone pics ... my phone does the same :) The rye and caraway is a great combination ... yeah butter would be my first choice :)

Cheers,
Phil

michalupo's picture
michalupo

I have a wheat starter - can I use it to make the rye sour as detailed in this recipe? And if the answer is yes, then why do starters ever have to be converted? I converted mine a while back and it took a solid 3 days for it to get worthy of baking bread with.

Thanks!

PiPs's picture
PiPs

Hi michalupo,

For that formula I would say use any starter you have ... wholegrain rye is very easy to ferment.

I am not sure what you exactly about converting?

This is what I do ... I like to keep a base starter that is never altered ... you could call it a maintenance starter. If I am making bread, I will take a part of this to build a levain or rye sour ... or whatever sourdough build I happen to be using. This way I can experiment with the levain builds without ever having to convert my maintenance starter.

The point being that the maintenance starter is never altered ... it is a constant and fed two times a day. This may be more work than what other people do ... but it works for me.

Cheers,
Phil

michalupo's picture
michalupo

Makes total sense. You say you feed it twice a day - don't you end up with a ton of starter? 

PiPs's picture
PiPs

I either discard the excess or use it in baking ... I only keep a small amount of starter.