The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Salt Rising Bread Starter

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Ford's picture
Ford

Salt Rising Bread Starter


I think I have found why there are many failures in culturing salt rising bread starters.  I believe it is the materials that may be added to prevent potatoes from sprouting.  The main sprout inhibitors registered for use on potatoes are 1-methylethyl-3-chlorophenylcarbamate (CIPC), maleic hydrazide (MH), 1,4 dimethylnaphthalene (DMN) and 2,6 diisopropylnaphthalene (DIPN).

The bacterial species that generates the gas for leavening salt rising bread is Clostridium perfringens.  This bacterium depends, in part, on ferrous iron to aid in its metabolism.  I seems to me that CIPC and/or MH may be responsible for tying up this iron and thus reducing the activity of C. perfringens.

There is a simple solution to this problem.  Use the so-called “organic” potatoes and “organic” cornmeal, and “organic” flour in beginning the culture for the starter.  So far, this has worked for me.  After the culture has demonstrated its viability, I use unbleached, non-brominated bread flour (King Arthur) in the recipe.

I would like anyone with ideas on this problem, solution, and/or opportunity to give me their thoughts.  I shall be happy to give my recipe for salt rising bread to anyone who desires it.

srbrown's picture
srbrown

I am a long time baker of Salt Rising Bread. The comment about sprout inhibitors in potatoes causing the SRB starter to fail is quite interesting. However, I must say that   I have used many kinds of potatoes (never organic ones) for years for SRB starters and have not had a problem with them. That is not to say, though, that these inhibitors may not be causing problems at times for others. The writer is correct that clostridium Perfringens is the bacterium that generates the gas for leavening SRB. It has been my experience that the most critical issue in determining success with your SRB starter is keeping the correct temperature (100-106 degrees) during the fermenting period. The "old timers" from whom I have learned much about SRB always stress the importance of PATIENCE when making this bread. It cannot be rushed! There are SRB starters made with no potatoes, but with cornmeal, instead. Perhaps the writer should try one of those recipes and may have more success. I have a website devoted entirely to SRB, if anyone would like to learn more about this bread. The address for that is: http://home.comcast.net/~petsonk/ or Google: susan brown salt rising bread, and the page will come up.


Susan Brown

Ford's picture
Ford

I am not a fan of "organic" foods.  Other than the name being a misnomer, I feel that, in general, there is no advantage to eating them for taste or for health reasons.  I have had varying degrees of success in making the starter, and have sought a fool-proof means of generating the starter.  After seeing the chemicals in use to inhibit the sprouting of potatoes I began to suspect that in cases where the potatoes have recieved a large dosage of these particular inhibitors, the iron necessary for the metabolism of the C. perfringens may be unavailable.  The chemicals used do migrate into the tuber and thus are not removed by peeling the potato.  The chemicals would not be used for foods labled "organic", nor would they be used by the home gardner.


I do use cornmeal and whole wheat flour, as well as potatoes, in my starter.  I do keep the culture and the dough at about 95°F to 105°F.  I certainly agree with you that this bread does require patience -- more patience than sourdough bread, and that requires more patience than bread raised by commercial yeast.


I have read your website, Ms Brown, I have used it as reference and, I think it is great.  Thank you for your comments!


Ford (R. B. Thompson)

gejori's picture
gejori

I have tried on several occasions to make a starter but the bread was never as I remembered it.  I think I've found my solution.  Remember to use germinated corn meal in the starter.  Most of the corn meals in your grocery are degerminated and will not do.  You may have to go to an organic type grocery to find the degerminated corn meal.  This one change made a difference for me.

yooper46's picture
yooper46

I use the cornmeal starter.  I wrap it in a towel and wrap and clip the heating pad on warm setting around it

Freda's picture
Freda

I believe you mean to state in the next-to-last sentence that you may have to go to an organic type grocery to find the "germinated" corn meal. 

 

Thanks

pepperhead212's picture
pepperhead212

I think both of you are thinking of the term "degermed". Germinated means sprouted, and it would be impossible to de-sprout a seed!

Dave

organic_farmer's picture
organic_farmer

The term "organic" as applied to food is in no way a misnomer.  This is actually a common misunderstanding by the unimformed.  "Organic" is derived from "the farm as an organism."  It has nothing to do with organic chemistry.  To say everything we put into our bodies is organic would be like saying you can keep sheep in the pen your write letters with.

la18ktop's picture
la18ktop

I am thrilled to see the page full of comments re: S R Bread!  I so clearly recall my mother buying S R Bread from Poul's Bakery in Orange, California.  The aroma - scintilating!  If I gain courage, I shall try your recipe.  Would you be so kind as to forward your recipe to me?  I note it is listed further down on the page, but want to be certain I am getting your "newest and best" version, just in case you have made revisions.

Thank you, in advance!   Linda.

Ford's picture
Ford

I have not made significant changes in the recipe.  I also have not made the bread in about 12 months  However, I will send you separately, a copy from my cookbook.  I am not the expert, Susan Brown is one, however.

Ford

 

EvaB's picture
EvaB

and one wonders just how "safe" it really is for humans to comsume as well, since its obvious that it doesn't allow the bacteria to grow!


I get my potatoes from a local organic grower, so know there is no pesticides, and so forth used on them, along with all his produce, and while it may not be any better to eat, its a darn site fresher than the stuff shipped up from California, Mexico and Florida not to mention Chile to the far north, and one wonders how fast that gets here, and from the warehouses to the stores, they tell me they get fresh stuff daily, but you can't tell me they can drive from California to Edmonton in one day, and then drive the produce to my local store in Dawson Creek so its less that two days old when it get here, not likely! And some of it is a darn site older than the "fresh picked" they claim.


I've never seen a recipe for the starter or salt raising bread either one. It sounds interesting, and like something I could do when its hotter than the hinges of Gehenna in the summer. We have temps of close to 100 sometimes days in summer.

Ford's picture
Ford

I do agree that home grown, fresh vegetables are the best and I also agree that much of the grocery store produce is not worth eating.  The same goes for commercial bakery bread.  That is the reason that I bake my own!


Here is my recipe for Salt Rising Bread.  I also have one for whole wheat.  This does require patience!



SALT-RISING BREAD, WHITE TRADITIONAL
Though NOT a sourdough bread, it does use a naturally occurring bacterium to make the leavening.

STARTER (S. R. BREAD)
 
2 medium, raw, peeled, thinly sliced potatoes, “organically grown” (~8 oz.)
1 quart (33.3 oz.) 190°F chlorine-free water
1/2 tspn. baking soda (sodium bicarbonate)
1/3 cup “organic” cornmeal (1.5 oz.)
1 Tbs. (0.5 oz.) sugar
1/4 cup (0.5 oz.) “organic” whole wheat flour
1 Tbs. dried starter reserved from past sponges, if available.
 
Note: This starter covers several options for the source of the bacteria that produces the rising.  If it doesn’t work, better try different sources for the cornmeal and the flour.  I have a strong feeling that using “organic” potatoes, cornmeal, and flour is most important for making a viable starter.

   Put the thinly sliced potatoes in a large bowl (about 2 1/2 quarts), and then pour in hot water.  Sprinkle on the sugar, soda, cornmeal, and flour.  Stir briefly.  Cover the bowl.  At this point, the temperature of the mixture will be about 140°F.  Place the bowl in a warm (about 95 to 105°F) spot where the temperature remains fairly constant.  After an hour add the dried starter reserved from past sponges, if it is available.  Let the starter sit undisturbed for about 10 to 20 hours.  The starter should then be foaming, with some corn meal and perhaps even a few slices of potato floating.  It should have a strong cheese-like aroma.  If you do not have the cheese-like aroma, your starter is not active and your bread will not rise.  Quit now, and get a different brand of cornmeal.
   If the aroma is present, remove the potato slices, discard them, and continue with the sponge.

SPONGE (S. R. BREAD)
 
starter from above,~36 oz. (less the potato slices)
1 2/3 cups (14.2 oz.) scalded, tepid milk
1/2 tspn. baking soda
3 1/2 (14.9 oz.) cups unbleached, bread flour
1/2 tspn. (0.1 oz.) sugar
 

   Scald milk (190°F) then cool to 110°F.  Pour the starter into a large mixing bowl.  Stir in baking soda, milk, sugar, and unbleached flour, some lumps may remain.  Cover with a plastic wrap and again set in a warm (95 to 105°F) place, and let the sponge rise.  This may take as long as 4 hours, or as short as 1 1/2 hours.  When ready, the sponge will have doubled in volume, will appear creamy, foamy, and still have the strong cheese odor.  Remove about a 1/4 cup of starter and spread it out on a sheet of parchment paper to dry.  When dry (about a day) break it up and store in a zippered bag.

DOUGH (S. R. BREAD)
 
all of the above sponge, ~65 oz.
9 to 9 1/2 cups (38.3 to 40.4 oz.) unbleached bread flour
1tspn. (0.2 oz.) sugar
1 1/2 Tbs. (1.0 oz.) salt
1/4 cup (2.0 oz.) melted and cooled butter
melted butter for greasing the pans and for brushing the dough
 

   Put 4 cups of flour, 1 tspn. sugar, and 1 1/2 Tbs. salt into bowl containing the sponge, and blend.  Stir in the melted butter. Then add enough flour (4 - 5 cups, or more) to make a soft, manageable dough that you can knead.
   Turn dough onto a floured surface and knead for a minute or two, adding flour as necessary.  Let it rest for ten minutes.  Resume the kneading until the dough is smooth and elastic, adding flour as necessary.  Divide into three loaves (about 2 lb. 1 oz. each), and shape each piece to fit 5“ x 9” loaf pans.  Place each into a greased loaf pan, brush with melted butter, and cover with plastic wrap.  Set loaf pans in a warm place (100 to 110°F) to rise.  This final rise takes about 2 hours, and the loaves should double the original volume.  Let the loaves rise until just above the top of the pan, and do not slash the loaves.

BAKING (S. R. BREAD)
   Preheat oven to 450°F (with a pan of boiling water on the bottom shelf) and the middle shelf reserved for the bread pans.  When the dough has risen, spray the dough with water, and place immediately into the oven.  After 15 minutes reduce the oven temperature to 350°F.  Bake until the interior temperature of the loaves is 195° to 200°F.  There will be little or no oven spring.  They should sound hollow when thumped with a finger on the bottom, about 40 minutes.  It is better to over-bake than to risk under-baking.  Turn out on to a cooling rack, brush with butter, and cover with a damp cloth until cooled.  Bread may then be packaged and frozen.

NOTES (S. R. BREAD)
   This is NOT a sourdough bread.  On the contrary, the organism responsible for the leavening prefers a near neutral pH, slightly on the basic (alkaline) side.  The baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) is added is to obtain that pH, not to leaven the dough.  Were the baking soda not added, the acid produced by the bacteria would greatly slow the growth of the bacteria, if not kill them.  Another difference is that this organism prefers a much higher temperature, 95 to 105°F (35 to 41°C).  This temperature would kill the sourdough yeast and lactobacteria.  The bacterium responsible for leavening salt rising bread (SRB) is anaerobic, i.e., it thrives in the absence of air, whereas the yeast and lactobacteria of sourdough can metabolize their nutrients either aerobically or anaerobically.
Clostridium perfringens is reported to be the bacterium responsible for the leavening of salt rising bread.    Apparently, the spores of this bacterium are wide spread and present in all grains and other plant material.  Nielsen2 has reported making salt rising leavening from many different starting materials viz., various grains, cheese, and even the bark of white oak, and the bark of black locust.  Apparently, it is the high temperature of the milk or water that activates these spores and then the continued temperature of about 105°F that promotes the metabolism of the bacteria.  The gas produced is said to be mostly hydrogen.   Juckett, Bardwell, McClane, and Brown  state, “SRB starter samples were cultured at the University of Pittsburgh and abundant C. perfringens, type A grew out of all samples. However none of the cultures were positive for enterotoxin and thus would be unlikely to cause human food borne disease. While this does not preclude the possibility of other starter mixes containing enteropathogenic strains, the baking process appears to reduce bacterial contamination to safe levels and SRB has not been implicated in causing any human disease.”
   A proofing oven is ideal for the various rising steps.  One can be made of a large cardboard box with a light bulb for heat.  (Do not let the bulb touch the box.)  Our oven with the oven light on and the door slightly cracked gives a temperature of about 105°F, perfect.  A gas oven with only the pilot light on may work.  Be sure to measure the temperature of the proofing oven (or area) — too high a temperature kills the organisms and too low (below 95°F) will not permit fast enough growth.  A temperature of 95 to 105°F seems to be about ideal for proofing.  This organism likes a higher temperature than does yeast.
   As the dough matures it looses its elasticity.  The risen dough in the baking pan will jiggle like a bowl of jelly as it is placed in the oven.  This is probably due to the bacteria having metabolized the gluten and thus destroying the network that retains the gases and gives structure to other breads.  The metabolites of this nitrogenous compound may well be the source of the cheese-like aroma.
   Do not use any product that has a live culture in it such as sweet acidophilus milk, yogurt, or buttermilk.  Or, at least scald (190°F) such a product to kill any active organisms.  The organisms may be antagonistic to the leavening organism.  Do not add any acid product at any stage.
   Be careful of preservatives that may be in the various ingredients.  They may kill the leavening organism.  Salt is a preservative; too much will slow or stop the leavening process.  Since the bacterium is anaerobic, avoid beating air into the starter, the sponge, and the dough.  Getting the culture going has long been a problem for me while others seem to have no problem.  Could it be that those people just raise their own potatoes or buy only those foods that are “organically” grown?  On this premise I made my starter with “organic” potatoes and “organic” cornmeal, and “organic” whole wheat flour.  The starter took off within six hours!  I have found that “non-organic” potatoes are treated with several chemicals that could very well inhibit bacterial growth  I have not been one to advocate “organic” foods, but I do believe that they just might be necessary for salt-rising starter.
   If at any time in the process the product does not appear to be working, i.e., generating the gases needed for proper rising and having a cheese-like aroma, discard it, and start over.  The starter and the sponge must generate foam, and the dough must at least double in bulk.  The most likely cause for failure is either too high or too low a temperature during proofing.  Saving out some of the sponge and drying it at room temperature for later use, is a means of providing some assurance of success of the fermentation.
Do not overproof the loaf – let it rise until it is just above the top of the loaf pan.  Do not slash the top of the loaf.
   Jenny Bardwell & Susan Brown, eHow Presenters, made a video on methods for making salt rising bread. (http://www.ehow.com/video_2340947_salt-rising-bread-recipe.html)

  Reinald S. Nielsen, http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatissaltrisingbread.html
  http://home.comcast.net/~petsonk/SRB03.10a_files/Page416.htm
  West Virginia University School of Medicine, W V Med J. 2008 Jul-Aug;104(4):26-7

riverrat's picture
riverrat

Hi am new to this site. I have already tried making salt-rised bread once and failed. So I am going to use your suggestions and try again. I am using James Beard's recipe.  His goes from the starter to the bread and does not use a sponge. What are the pros and cons of using or not using a sponge? 

apprenticewinemaker's picture
apprenticewinemaker

I have been attempting to make the starter for salt rising bread for the past week and have failed 5 out of 7 times.  I have watched Susan Brown's videos, read various recipes, but failed at most of my attempts.  At first I was using store bought corn meal; I then switched to germinated corn meal that I purchased from a health food store.  I could not get the starter to foam. I am now attempting to use a turkey roaster, with a variable thermostat, which allows me to keep a warm water bath of 110 degrees F.  Hopefully this will work for me.  On one of my succesfull attempts, I made the sponge and then the bread.  Unfortunately, after five hours of rise time, I saw little rise.  I went ahead and baked the bread and am now cooling it;  will try it in the morning. I don't have high expectations as it's only a few inches high;  it simply failed to rise properly.  Does anyone out there have some advise for me?

Ford's picture
Ford

If the starter does not have bubbles and the odor of salt rising bread then it will not raise the dough.  Also the rising time for this is longer than for sourdough bread, but three hours and no rising means it is NOT going to rise.  King Arthur Flour sometimes has some dried starter for sale.

The experts tell me that the secret is temperature.  about 100°F to 105°F.

Ford

apprenticewinemaker's picture
apprenticewinemaker

Hi Ford, 

Thanks for your input.  I tried again last night and failed.  This is now 6 failures out of 8 attempts.  The two times that I succeeded I followed Susan Brown's instructions; once using cornmeal and once using potatoes.  The problem is that I do not have the rest of her recipe so I am mixing two recipes and don't feel like it's working out.  The bread that I baked last night turned out marginally okay.  It was nothing that I would ever want to eat again.  

The recipe that has the failing starter comes from allrecipes.com and I don't know how to querry the author.  Her recipe for starter is:

1 cup milk

1/2 cup cornmeal

1 Tbsp. white sugar

1 tsp. salt

 

I am putting the dry ingredients in a 1 quart canning jar and then, over the stove, scalding the cup of milk.  I then pour the milk in with the cornmeal, sugar, and salt and stir it up.  I then put Press n Seal over the jar and place it in a warm water bath of 100-105 degrees F.  I place the roasting pan's cover over the canning jar and then place towels, for insulation, over the entire roasting pan.  For temperature monitoring I have  taped an instant read thermometer to the side of the canning jar so that its tip is submerged in the water bath.  I monitor the thermometer periodically so I'm sure that my temperature control is accurate.

I'm about to give up on this recipe and You had posted that you would share your recipe for salt rising bread.  I would sure appreciate it.  

Thanks, Apprenticewinemaker

Ford's picture
Ford

Recipe is above in this thread.  I have had many failures, and have sought a "fool-proof" recipe.  All I can say is to keep plugging.

Ford

swtgran's picture
swtgran

I have successfully used recipe #5 from Susan R Brown's salt rising bread project, many times.  I think the key is the constant temp. of the starter and the dough.  I always use a quart size yogurt maker, much like the one sold at King Arthur.  It keeps the starter at a perfect 110 degrees.  I have yet to have that particular recipe fail.  Terry R.

Ford's picture
Ford

Ms Brown is the expert on Salt Rising Bread see:

http://home.comcast.net/~petsonk/

Ford

SRB Beginner's picture
SRB Beginner

After several failed attempts using other recipes, I saw your post indicating this recipe never fails.  So I googled Susan Brown's website and downloaded recipe # 5.  I also have a quart size yogurt maker, however three attempts using Brown's recipe # 5 have all failed.  We don't have any health food stores in this area, so I drove 35 miles to a Whole Foods store and purchased a bag of Arrowhead Mills organic whole grain yellow corn meal mix - again 2 failures.  What am I doing wrong?

jksipe's picture
jksipe

Hello,

I was wondering if you have to use Salt Rising bread right away or can you store it in the refrigerator until you are ready to use it?

Ford's picture
Ford

Salt Rising Bread has excellent storage qualities.  You may freeze it for months, or store it in plastic bag in the refrigerator for a week or so.

If you are talking about the starter -- use it right away.  Keep it warm -- those critters don't like the cold.

 

Ford

srbrown's picture
srbrown

It has been my experience that saving the SRB starter is not usually successful. I have done it before, but I don't rely on it to work. However, if you'd like to try it, here is what I would do: place your already successful SRB starter in the refrigerator (just for a number of days, not weeks), and when you are ready to use it, add some warm water and flour, then leave it in a warm place to ferment again. This should take 4 to 6 hours. If it is going to work, it should foam up like your initial starter did. Then, proceed with your SRB recipe as you normally would. Good luck!! Susan Brown

Buster1948's picture
Buster1948

After ca. 40 years of periodic frustration, surrender , exile and repatriation, I finally produced four actual loaves of SRB on January 30, 2013. This last effort required an impromptu vacation of about 12 days, careful attention to each failed starter and failed sponge; using care to limit possible variables from one attempt to the next, e.g., making separate starters from potatoes and corn meal, rather than throwing in the kitchen sink, until I was sure that I had good potatoes and good cornmeal; treating each stage in the process as a project unto itself; and probably the most patience I've ever exercised. 

Lessons learned include, among others, don't make SRB, make a starter; if that succeeds, don't make SRB, make a sponge; if that succeeds, THEN make salt rising bread.

Final lesson learned -- Think like a project manager at a shipyard or construction site.  Expect success; that is, make sure that your materials, tools, personnel (you) and favorable worksite will be immediately available, if you succeed at each step.  A good starter does you no good, if you aren't prepared to proceed with the sponge then and there; and a successful sponge is no good, unless you have enough flour to make dough and pans to bake it in. Of course, plan your baking backward, so that you don't wind up making a sponge at midnight and baking bread at 3 in the morning.  (On the other hand, if you have failed to ascertain whether your wife plans to have her church friends over at the same time you hope to be building the USS SRB in the kitchen and dining room, you will wish that you had wound up baking at 3 a.m.)

I also have two new friends who don't know I exist, Mr. Ford and Susan Brown.  If you haven't watched her on Youtube, you should.  In several short videos, aside from her perfect knowledge of SRB, Mrs. Brown also provides a marvelous demonstration of diplomacy, restraint and patience, betrayed only by the most expressive eyes on the planet and the baker's answer to the pool shark's "body English", as she helps her colleague navigate the dangerous waters of baking without measuring.

What prompted this comment, however, was that I just noticed that Ford's directions appear to call for using the same vessel throughout the process -- making the starter, expanding it to the sponge and then expanding the sponge into dough.  I will try that next time, because washing up afterward took almost as long as making the bread. (Of course, until now, I have needed several jars to experiment with starters and bowls for different species of sponges.)

srbrown's picture
srbrown

To Buster1948: I just have to say, first of all, CONGRATULATIONS ON YOU SRB SUCCESS!! That is wonderful to know! I'm so glad that you persevered and so glad that you wrote about it. I thoroughly enjoyed this writing of the trials and tribulations of making SRB. Wonderfully stated! I especially had to smile when you told about the scene in our SRB video when my friend failed to measure the ingredients. You are a very astute observer! If you attempt the bread again and need help with any problems or have any questions, feel free to contact me from my SRB website. My email address is there. I am always more than happy to help people reach SRB success. Thank you for sharing you SRB story. I hope that you have many more successes! Susan

Ford's picture
Ford

I too congratulate you.

Ford

WhenDoWeEat's picture
WhenDoWeEat

I am happy to report that my first attempt at baking SRB has been a resounding success! I followed the recipe above to a  Tee: 

2 medium sized organic Red Soda potatoes, peeled and sliced very thin with my mandoline

1 qt. Evian water

Bob's Red Mill Organic Stone Ground Whole Wheat flour and organic corn meal (bulk, from the health food store.)

I placed mixed starter ingredients on a folded kitchen towel on my warming tray, set to lowest temperature and put another towel on top of the lidded bowl, on Saturday morning at about 10:30am.  Sunday morning I was up at 6, and could faintly smell the "bad cheese" odor all the way in the bedroom! I was geeked! Onto the sponge!  I proceeded as directed, and in about 2 hours the sponge was threatening to over flow the bowl. And it was a big bowl, the biggest one I own. (Note to self: Buy a REALLY BIG Bowl.)  I added the flour as directed and I could tell when I was kneading the dough I had something good going.  I divided the mass into 3 loaves, and placed in the pans to rise.  I initially warm the oven ten minutes or so on the lowest setting (170 F), switch off and keep the oven light turned on.  After roughly 2 hours, I had these:

 Then into the oven (450F - 15 mins, 350F - 35 mins)...............

Et voila! Finished!

Can't wait for them to cool!  If I knew it was this easy, I would have started doing salt rising bread a long time ago.  On to sourdough!

 

Woodysgood's picture
Woodysgood

Yeast and tap water chlorine??  Hmmmmmm?  Can this kill the SRB project?

rubyyarn's picture
rubyyarn

Yesterday I made salt rising bread from a recipe I got from the Internet.  The starter worked (yay!), and I made dough OK.  This recipe didn't use a sponge.  My question is, how do you tell when the bread has risen enough?  Does it hurt for it to rise overnight?  I would like to make SR bread for our farmers market, but not if rising times are so iffy.

 

I will try Ford's recipe next.  It might be more reliable.

lambert901's picture
lambert901

I have been wanting to master SRB for some time. My grandmother used to make it. After following this recipe I have made 12 loaves (4 batches). Not one starter has failed. It tastes incredible. Thanks so much!

Antilope's picture
Antilope

The food website Serious Eats has an interesting article about using a blender to make DIY Cornmeal from Unpopped Popcorn. With this method, you get a whole grain cornmeal.

They use a Vitamix blender to do this, but you could use a grain mill. I wonder if this homemade cornmeal would work to make Salt Rising Bread starter?

Here's a link to the article:

http://www.seriouseats.com/2013/03/diy-cornmeal-from-popcorn.html