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Celebrating Rye Breads

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ananda

Celebrating Rye Breads

Celebrating Rye Breads

 

This weekend has involved multiple home bakes as I feed up my leavens in preparation for the 2 day “UK Fresh Loaf” course which I will be running at the College on 19th and 20th July.   Many thanks, in particular to ruralidle for suggesting this in the first place, and for his work to make it happen.   It will be my swansong at Newcastle College, as I am leaving at the end of this month in search of more exciting professional adventures in the wake of the savage cuts currently being inflicted across the board by the ruthless and deeply unimaginative Government currently in power over here.   The result is that the College has re-structured to continue to attract sources of funding without being brave enough to find ways to continue to fulfil a key aspect of its traditional role in UK education.   I am not short of ideas and leads, so am optimistic that a far more exciting future lies on the horizon.   The only definite part of the plan is to make sure I complete my MSc in Food Policy between January and August of next year.

So, the show, very much, goes on.   Here are the breads I made at home over Friday, Saturday and Sunday [8th – 10th July], having started refreshing the 2 leavens on Thursday evening, 7th July 2011.

1.    Caraway Rye with Blackstrap Molasses

This is a bread I first developed and made some time ago, not long after joining the TFL community and beginning this Blog.   You can read about it here: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16273/carawy-rye-bread-black-strap-molasses-superwet-ciabatta-too  This version is, however, quite different in that the leaven is wheat-based, with Dark Rye being added at the dough stage.   The original used a Rye Sourdough with only wheat flour added to the final dough.   There is half the amount of caraway in this formula, as this is all the stock I currently had in.   More detail on taste is given below.   I made 2 large miche type loaves from this dough; the recipe/formula and method detail are shown below:

Material

Formula [% of Flour]

Recipe [grams]

1. Wheat Leaven Refreshment One

18:15, Thursday 07.07.2011

 

From Stock

 

40 [25 flour, 15 water]

Marriage’s Strong Organic White Flour

 

100

Water

 

60

TOTAL

 

200

2. Refreshment Two

13:30, Friday 08.07.2011

 

Wheat Leaven

[from above]

 

200

Marriage’s Strong Organic White Flour

 

300

Water

 

180

TOTAL

 

680 [40 retained as stock]

TOTAL used

 

640 [400 flour, 240 water]

3. Final Dough

19:00, Friday 08.07.2011

 

Wheat Leaven

[from above]

40

[25 flour, 15 water]

640

[400 flour, 240 water]

Carrs Special CC Flour

50

800

Bacheldre Organic Dark Rye

25

400

Organic Blackstrap Molasses

6.25

100

Salt

1.75

28

Caraway Seeds

0.9

14

Water

50

800

TOTAL

173.9

2782

% pre-fermented flour

25

-

% overall hydration

65

-

 

Method:

  • Weigh the dough water, and dissolve molasses and salt into that.   Add the flours and caraway seeds and mix until clear.   Autolyse for one hour.
  • Combine the leaven and autolyse and develop the dough.   As Shiao-Ping originally noted, the empirical feel of the dough is akin to much higher hydration than that actually used.   This is the effect of using molasses and 25% rye flour making the dough very sticky indeed.   Persevere with slow and gentle mixing, avoiding adding any flour at all to the dough.   I used Bertinet’s slap and fold here, mixing for almost an hour, but with lots of resting phases along the way.
  • Bulk ferment for 2 hours
  • Retard for 7 hours, overnight.
  • Scale, divide and mould the dough pieces.   I scaled one at 1550g and the other at 1200g and placed each piece upside down in prepared bannetons.   The large loaf stayed out for proof, and the other went back in the chiller for a further 2 hours to give a manageable production schedule, with the second bread following, then another bread after that.   Final proof time for loaf one was just short of 4 hours, and for loaf two exactly 5 hours.
  • I cut the tops of each loaf with a diamond pattern and set them to bake at 220°C using plenty of steam.   For the bigger loaf, I baked it for 15 minutes at 220°C, then 20 minutes at 200°C, then a further 15 minutes at 180°C.   The smaller loaf baked the same, but for 40 minutes instead of 50 minutes.
  • Finished loaves cooled on wires, as always.   The baked loaves had a finished weight which showed moisture loss of just under 10%.   I achieved a core temperature of 96°C for both loaves.

Some photographs of the finished loaf are shown below.   Regarding analysis of the finished bread, this is one of Alison’s absolute favourite loaves.   There is sourness and bitterness coming from the rye and molasses.   There is sweetness too, and plenty of aroma from the caraway.   The crumb colour is particularly lovely, and the moistness brings great pleasure to the final eating quality.   We took one of these loaves along as a gift to some friends’ house last night, as we had been invited round for dinner.   That was the first chance we had to sample the bread, but we had a slice each for breakfast this morning, with just a thin coating of butter.

 

2.    Borodinsky – The Auerman Formula [or thereabouts anyway]

I have now tracked down a supply of Red Malt, and managed to find a way to fit the more complex 3-stage build used for this bread into my home schedule for the last couple of days.   It’s something I have long wanted to do, have been slightly taken to task for previously on TFL, and am really happy with the finished result; subject to tasting and crumb analysis which I have yet to carry out.

I made one large loaf, in a Pullman Pan, weighing just over 1660g

Material

Formula [% of flour]

Recipe [grams]

1. Rye Sour Refreshment

18:15, Thursday 07.07.2011

 

From Stock

 

70 [26 flour, 44 water]

Bacheldre Organic Dark Rye Flour

 

60

Water

 

100

TOTAL

 

230

 

 

 

2. Full Sour

13:00, Friday 08.07.2011

 

Rye Sour from above

 

230

Bacheldre Organic Dark Rye Flour

 

180

Water

 

300

TOTAL

 

710 [38 retained as stock]

TOTAL used

80 [30 flour, 50 water]

672 [252 flour, 400 water]

 

 

 

3. “Scald”

22:30, Friday 08.07.2011

 

Bacheldre Organic Dark Rye Flour

20

168

Red Malt

5

42

Organic Blackstrap Molasses

6

50

Coriander, freshly ground

1

8

Salt

1

8

Boiling Water

35

294

TOTAL

68

570

 

 

 

4. “Sponge”

23:30, Friday 08.07.2011

 

Rye Sourdough [from 2]

80 [30 flour, 50 water]

672 [252 flour, 400 water]

Scald [from 3]

68

570

TOTAL

148

1242

 

 

 

5. Final Paste

07:30 Saturday 09.07.2011

 

Sponge [from 4]

148

1242

Bacheldre Organic Dark Rye Flour

23.5

197

Carrs Special CC Flour

26.5

223

TOTAL

198

1662

% pre-fermented flour

50

30 from sour + 20 from scald to make “sponge”

% overall hydration

85

-

 

Method:

  • Refresh the rye sour as directed in the table above.
  • Make the “scald” as follows: Weigh the red malt and dark rye flour into a bowl, add the salt, and coriander, which should be freshly ground using a mortar and pestle.   Weight the molasses into a pan, and pour boiling water onto this to the specified weight.   Bring this to a rolling boil on the cooker hob top.   Pour onto the dry ingredients and combine well with a stout plastic or wooden spatula.   Add any extra boiling water required first by checking the weight of the contents to allow for any evaporation.   Cool the scald as rapidly as possible down to a maximum temperature of 45°C.   This took an hour.
  • Combine the scald and the full sour to form the sponge.   Leave this to ferment for 5½ hours.   I then retarded it a further 2 hours, as it was 05:00 and I needed a bit more sleep!
  • Add the 2 remaining portions of flour to the sponge to form the final paste
  • Prove in bulk for 1½ hours, and meanwhile prepare a large Pullman Pan by lining it with silicone paper.
  • Pan the paste, smooth it off and dust the top with a sprinkling of freshly ground coriander.   Put the lid on the Pan and set for final proof for 2 hours.
  • Use a pan of water in the oven and set to bake at 160°Cfor 2 hours, with a gentle supply of steam, topped up as needed.
  • De-pan and cool on wires.   The finished weight of the cooled bread was 1400g, indicating a weight loss of 15.8%.   This means that the moisture retained within the bread remains at just under 70% of the flour, and equates to 35% of the total weight of the finished bread!

Notes:

  • Red Malt: this is derived from malted barley, ground to a fine powder.   I believe it has been lightly roasted to the levels which would be known in the brewing industry as “Crystal Malt”.   In terms of amylase, it makes no contribution, as the grain has been roasted at too high a temperature for the enzymes to survive.   I suspect the Russian version would use rye as the source, rather than barley, but this is as close as I can get at the moment.   It looks like this:

  • Constructing the Scald:   I did this exactly the same as I have done it in the past, except for using the red malt instead of the barley malt syrup which I have previously had to use as an alternative.   The formula does not use molasses or salt in the scald.   The reason I added the molasses at this stage is because I did not want to use sugar in the formula, as the “official” recipe directs.   Adding molasses to the final paste would be a difficult mixing process, as there is no liquid added at this stage to use to dissolve the molasses into.
  • Additionally, the sponge process had to be left for longer than the 4 hours directed in the formula, on account of me requiring a bit more sleep.   So I added the salt in the hope it would retard the ferment.   I also hoped that the level of molasses in the formula would be sufficiently high to have a slight retarding effect too.   In the event, I woke up 5 hours into the final fermenting phase, and stored the sponge in the fridge to retard it for just over 2 hours before getting up to make the final paste.   This worked very well; some pictures of the dark and rich “sponge” are attached here.

  • Undoubtedly this is the best version of this bread I have made.   You can reach your own conclusions about the origins of the term “Borodinsky” from the various stories uncovered in the research posted above.   I’ve never been to Russia, and have no idea what the “official” Borodinsky produced in Soviet times, or, the older, traditional loaf of its type tasted or looked like.   This version is stunning.   The bitter/sweet flavours are intense, the crumb is DARK, and very moist.   For all that, it is very easy to eat, and intensely “moreish”!
  • References: there is more information about the Borodinsky formula given below.   Some of these are taken from previous discussion threads of interest on TFL.   This one http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11812/rye-amylase is of interest in that discussion is given over to the part played by the scald in the formula, and the extent to which the water should be heated before it is poured onto the flour.   Here, I am left wondering if the key purpose of the scald is to fully gelatinise the starches in order to encourage maximum liquid take up in the final formula?   Or, have I still not got this part right, and missed that the scald is actually a “mash” and not a “boil up”?   Informative further discussion on mash chemistry and its potential impact here would be much appreciated.
  • I did then go on to complete the process as outlined originally by Borodin, by combining the sour and scald.   However, I wonder if, because my scald was a “boil-up”, and not a “mash”, whether that meant the sponge would not work exactly as intended, and as outlined here in an earlier post on the referenced thread: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11812/rye-amylase#comment-66360
  • Two clear derivations are offered for Borodinsky bread, and this topic seems to spark off heated debate about what is the “true” Borodinsky.   Is it a black bread created in the immediate aftermath of the Battle of Borodino, to celebrate the Russian army success in 1812?   Or, is it the heavily prescribed Soviet bread of the GOST standards, as referenced here:  http://www.borodinsky.com/recipe/index-r.html  on this thread: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20370/russian-sourdough-no-more   My attempt here was to re-produce the latter style, and I acknowledge I have not been entirely successful.   Some of this is deliberate…avoiding sugar, and replacing it with molasses.   The story on the zavarkha is another matter.   Can anyone provide further detail on whether the process is carried out primarily to mash, or, to gelatinise?   That would be much appreciated; if we can avoid derogatory comments this time, that would be all the better.
  • For further information, I highly recommend reading the various discussion posts here: http://www.foodbanter.com/baking To do this, you will have to register.   Then use the “Search” tab in the top menu, and type “Borodinsky” into the search box when it comes up.   Select the threads you want to see from there.

For information on the very precise rye bread recipes from the Soviet era, see this table here: http://www.indiana.edu/~pollang/Russian_bread_table.pdf

I would like to dedicate this bread and post to my friend and TFL colleague Daisy_A, and pass on all good wishes for a speedy recovery, as I know you are having an operation on one of your eyes round about now.   Your intellect shines through in some of the passages referenced above and these typify the enormous cultural contribution you make to the pages of TFL.   “Get well soon!”

 

3.    Pain de Campagne with mixed levains

Just a quick one, to give me an excuse to feed up the rye sour and wheat levain one more time.   Recipe/formula and method below for one large loaf in a banneton.   The refreshment programme for the 2 leavens is not given, however, I used the cultures leftover from the previous 2 doughs, fed them each once more, and used these to make this bread, returning small amounts of each to stock for re-generation.

Material

Formula [% of flour]

Recipe [grams]

Wheat Levain

36.1 [22.5 flour, 13.6 water]

256 [160 flour, 96 water]

Rye Sourdough

36.6 [14.1 flour, 22.5 water]

260 [100 flour, 160 water

White Bread Flour

63.4

450

Salt

1.7

12

Water

31.8

226

TOTAL

169.6

1204

% pre-fermented flour

36.6

-

% overall hydration

67.9

-

 

Method:

  • Combine all the items in the table in a bowl to form a dough.   Mix by hand on the bench for 15 minutes.
  • Retard overnight in the fridge.
  • Mould round and place upside down in a prepared banneton.
  • Prove for 5 hours
  • Score the top of the loaf, and bake in a pre-heated oven with steam, for 45 minutes.
  • Cool on wires.

A somewhat less detailed formula to finish with.   Photographs of the crust and crumb are here.   The loaf has gentle flavours in comparison to the full-on tastes of the other 2 breads.

Happy Baking!

Andy

Comments

suave's picture
suave

That's not correct, oboynaya, for all practical purposes, is a wholemeal flour.

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Right. I'm getting totally confused now.

How is oboynaya then different from obdirnaya, which is (or can be) also wholemeal? How come there's such a difference in ash count, 2.0 max for oboynaya vs 1.45 max for obdirnaya? What would give rye such a different amount of minerals, is it growing conditions? Whether it's a winter or summer rye? Cultivar perhaps?

suave's picture
suave

Obdirnaya is not a wholemeal flour, it's a medium rye with extraction of about 85%.  As to the ash content, you should not look at it as a real number, rather it is a limit allowed by the law.  For example, look at how it works with German rye flours:

Their medium rye is called 1370 suggesting 1.37% ash, but the regulations permit it to be anywhere from 1.3% to 1.6%.  1.37% is not even an average value!  Similar thing with Russian flours, wholemeal can't have more than 2.0%, but as far as I can tell, nothing says that it can't be 1.0%.

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Yes i realise it's a range, but a 0.5 difference still seems like a lot to me.

From what you're saying I'm inclined to make the following practical conclusions. As a homebaker without access to Russian flours, if I'm unable to purchase a UK wholemeal flour with an ash count higher than say German 1370 range (which is sort of on the boundary of oboynaya and obdirnaya), I might as well:

- either use that wholemeal for both oboynaya and obdirnaya recipes

- or do as above but sift some of the bran for obdirnaya, although that's such a waste!

- or, add the sifted bran back to wholemeal flour in the hope it'll be more like oboynaya,

- or use wholemeal as oboynaya and buy the one labelled "German 997" for obdirnaya.

And now I've got to find a source of flour that's similar to seyanaya which has a max ash count of 0.75... a quick Google search for white rye flour (which would probably be the closest equivalent to seyanaya if I my understanding is correct) retrieved nothing  in the UK...

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Faith,

You would need to mix some white rye and light rye in order to achieve that level of ash

Best wishes

Andy

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Yes, but where do I get white rye from, Andy? Do you know of anywhere in the UK? I'd really hate the idea of imported flour (apart from the little I can carry in my luggage when travelling) so even if postage were affordable (which is unlikely) the carbon footprint of having it imported would put me off...

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Faith,

The only white rye I have ever used came as a free sample from the Watermill when we were baking at the Red Herring back in the late 1980s.   A customer had asked them to provide a sample and they had some leftover which they gave us to try.   It was a one-off, not least because the extraction rate was about 50%.   I don't think Nick and Ana were happy at the potential waste and at the loss of income from producing such a flour.

I suspect Doves and Shipton and Bacheldre have probably taken the same view.   Hence the decision to offer wholegrain and light rye, but nothing else.

Best wishes

Andy

ps. for what it's worth, the Shipton Light Rye can produce some amazingly light textured bread.

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Um. I'm sure they could mill a white rye and use the remaining portion of the grain to make very dark rye. But there probably isn't the market for it, or at least the mills must have decided so

suave's picture
suave

The last option is probably the best, I would even consider adding some wholemeal flour to 997 if the breads come out too light.  However at this point I would like to second Andy and suggest you stop paying such a close attention to ash content and judge them by extraction rates, as it is indeed a much better indicator, which describes milling process itself, and does not depend on factors such as local standard naming, annual variations of grain quality, and miller's fancies.

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Yeah I was just thinking that actually... Lol I'll now have to get back to all those mills and ask about their exrtaction rates!

I'm thinking, for want of alternatives, maybe I should try and sift type 997 from Shipton (as I was going to place a large-ish order with them anyway) and use the resulting finer flour for the odd loaf that requires seyanaya (e.g. Rizhsky) and mix the rest with unsifted 997 for loaves based on obdirnaya.

Could be an awful lot of sifting though, if I were to make any more than 1-2 loaves...

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Faith,

Unless you have very fine mesh, you will achieve nothing by sieving light rye; it is very finely ground by Shipton Mill.

I'm lost on your other comment in reply to suave.   To me Light Rye 997 is 85% extraction.   What Shipton sell as Dark Rye is the same as Bacheldre's wholegrain and that is 1350.   A true Dark Rye is over 1500 as it contains mainly the outer portions of the grain.

Very best wishes

Andy

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Um.. i do have a sieve with cells of approx 0.5 mm.. I use it to sift fine wheat flours. I prefer to always sift flour if I can, in order to impregnate it with air. I don't know if 0.5 mm would be fine enough though.

RE my other comment. Are you saying that an 85% extraction rate would be consistent for all light ryes produced in the UK? If so then I obviously needn't bother.

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Faith,

I don't believe I have used any other Light Rye apart from Shipton Mill, actually.   All the other rye flours I have used have been wholemeal

BW

Andy

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Ok. I get it. And I don't.

Russian obdirnaya has some (but not all) bran sifted out, doesn't it? So it's not totally wholemeal.

YET some varieties of UK wholemeal rye have an ash count comparable to that of obdirnaya, nowhere near the 2.0 mark. How does that happen?

in fact, I have yet to find a rye flour available in the UK through the retail network that has an ash count as high as oboynaya. Does anyone know of a brand that does? Bacheldre website  doesn't list their flours' ash count (of at least I can't find it), but you said it's quite dark didn't you Andy? Maybe I should send them an email.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Rang Bacheldre today, asked them exactly that! Don't think an email would hurt either - give them a sense there is a groundswell of interest in this information!

I love their flour, after starting using it on Andy's recommendation.  I have come across it described as 'higher ash' than other rye flours by UK bakers. Skipton dark rye is reading 1350. However despite aiming at home bakers and giving a good cultural context, would like Bacheldre to fill the gap in technical information about their flours on their web and packets!

Also trawling the internet, found some crystal and roasted rye malt for home brew in small sizes. Not sure if this would be helpful for bread? Was interested in the roasted malt. Anyone know anything about this? 

http://www.hopshopuk.com/products/search/q:rye%20malt

Best wishes, Daisy

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

So what, did they not grace your question with an answer?

I've also emailed Dove Farm today, asking to specify the ash count for their wholemeal ryes (they do label their light ryes as "german 997" but no indication whatsoever for whole ryes), and also how coarsely/finely they mill them. I have bought their wholemeal rye from Tesco a couple of times and i remember it to be quite coarse, but who knows maybe their 25 kg sacks can be ordered milled a bit finer...

Milling grade isn't a particular obsession of mine, it's just I read in Auerman that more finely milled ryes have a better nutritional value as they are more easily digestible. Also I remember reading somewhere that the scald is best made with a finer flour.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Er no...Got the usual robotic answer machine that seems to be standard fare whoever you ring now, sadly. BM has not rung back yet...

True story: there are a lot of East Asian language students in our neighbourhood as there is a leading language school nearby. One of them was out in the garden practising his language skills. Unit was obviously answering the telephone. Remember when I first did this with French and then Spanish we practised with a more natural human voice, on tape or with a partner. 

His brief was to ring a paper mill and record his exchange. Off he gamely set with his English intro. I was fully expecting a recorded English voice to respond, in imitation of a human interaction. Instead he had to practise how to deal with a robotic voice going 'If you are a business and want to bulk order paper, please press 1'. 'If you are an individual and want to buy paper, please press 2'...Was a bit like that, only substitute a generic message  from BM and 'I'd like to know the ash content of your rye flour...' from me. 

Will let you know if I hear! Best wishes, Daisy

 

 

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

lol poor student!

Reminds me. (sorry a real OFF!)

When my school history teacher was at college, his History faculty had the pleasure of being visited by an Amerian professor. Back in those days, most Russians were formally "taught" English at school and/or Uni, but in practice, this rarely went beyond "hello my name is Vasya". (In fact, although things have improved greatly since then, the teaching of foreign languages where they're not a core subject can still be pretty poor). Anyway, some twat  considerate soul at the Dean's office asked the visiting professor to lecture the Faculty's students on some hot themes in the American history discourse of the day. Unfortunately, it didn't occur to the said soul that the services of an interpreter may be required. After all, all educated Russians speak English :-) So, they huddle together as many students as they can fit into this lecture hall, and after an hour or so of topical American science the unsuspecting lecturer proceeds to questions. Dead silence falls. Then my teacher gets up and thus he speaks (queue an atrocious Russian accent):

"My farzer iz a collectif farmer. Iz yore farzer a collective farmer?"

 

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Right. I've just downloaded that manual I mentioned earlier. It's actually a textbook for college students of food technology by Lev Yanovich Auerman - I wonder if he has anything to do with Auerman the author of your Borodinsky formula?

For whatever reason I can't find anything in it about rye zavarka, although it does have a chapter on wheat zavarkas. Assuming that fermentation processes in wheat and rye differ, I ruled that the chemistry of zavarkas mustl also differ with either type of flour so I didn't really read that chapter. But if I'm wrong and you're interested I could give you the gist later.

The book does however have a section on rye malt. (Oh dear it also has a section on how to use hydrogen peroxide, peracetone, bromides and other really nice stuff as acidifiers! I'm so happy I took up home baking...)

So here goes (NB it's part translation, part gist):

There are two kinds of rye malt produced in Russia, dry fermented malt ("red") and dry non-fermented malt ("light"). 

To obtain red malt, rye grain is sprouted, then "fermented" (i.e. kept at high temperatures), dried (again, at high temperatures) and lastly, milled. Fermentation allows for an intensive production of melanoidins which give the resulting malt its reddish-brown colour, as well as a characteristic taste and aroma. The colour, flavour and aroma are the precise reasons red malt is used in baking. Enzyme activity in red malt is notably low (lower than dark/wholemeal rye flour) as the temperatures at which red malt is fermented and dried inactivate the enzymes. Therefore red rye malt should be seen not as a fermentation additive but as a conditioner which improves crumb colour, flavour and aroma in rye bread. However, in breads made with "oBOYnaya" flour (description according to GOST: ash 2.0% and no more than 0,07% lower than that of untreated grain, clolour grey, noticeable bran particles. Extraction, according to a different source, is 95%) a similar effect could be reached through a significantly longer baking time (in which case no red malt required).

Red malt is usually used in zavarkas, mostly in rye "zavarnoy hleb" (rye bread with scald), notably Borodinsky, but also in some other types of bread.

Non-fermented ("light") rye malt is produced by drying at low temperatures immediately after the grain has sprouted. This preserves the activity of alpha-amylase, proteolytic enzymes and other enzymes. This malt has a light colour, similar to that of rye flour (hence it's also called "white malt"). It has strong diastatic properties and is mainly used as a diastatic additive. Also used to convert starches into polysacharides in zavarka (in Rizhsky and some other breads) and improve wheat flour if low in sugars or gas activity.

This is the malt bit. More on zavarka coming soon.

ananda's picture
ananda

Many thanks Faith,

This is exactly the manual I have come across before, and the source quoted where I found the Borodinsky formula.

I look forward to more on zavarkha.   The Red Malt described is exactly the same as what I am now using here in the UK...except that mine is derived from barley, and the Russian authentic version is from Rye.

The most obvious question: is there any way to get hold of an English translation of this text?

Very much appreciated

Thank you

Andy

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

well. The foreword to this edition does say that the manual has seen 6 issues in other countries. It's not quite clear whether it was published 6 times in 6 different languages, or in just one language but in 6 editions. And it doesn't say which language(s). It could very possibly be English.

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Sorry Andy, the above comment was wholly inaproppriate and I sincerely apologise if you've had the time to read it. I've just edited out the rude bit.

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Right.  This is what I’ve
found on zavarka so far. The info is from http://www.hleb.net/technology/10rzh/rzhanojzavarnoj/rzhanojzav.html
Author(s) unknown. It’s basically a generic recipe for “zavarnoy hleb” and it
details 3 methods for rye zavarka. These methods,
apart from no.3, don’t explicitly say much about the chemistry of zavarka but I
think you’ll be able to work it out.

NB I’ll just use the word zavarka because I don’t really
understand the difference between a scald and a mash, and because Russian texts
don’t make a distinction between the two they just call them all zavarka.

 

Quantities given per 100 kg bread. Irrespective of bread
variety, 15-20% of total rye flour should be used in zavarka.

 

Recipe 1. Plain zavarka

15 kg flour, 35 l water.

Flour is scalded with half of the water (this should be boiling hot), stirred until no
lumps remain, then remaining (boiling) water added and the mix stirred once
more. The mix is cooled to 65 C and kept at that temperature for 30 minutes to
an hour. It is then further cooled to 35-30 C before adding to other
ingredients at dough mixing stage.

 

Recipe 2. Malt zavarka

15 kg flour, 5 kg malt (it doesn’t say which kind, I’m
assuming it’s red malt), 35 l water

Method as for plain zavarka, except when temperature of the
mix reaches 75 C, malt is added. When zavarka cools down to 65-63 C, it is kept
at that temperature for 3-4 hours TO ALLOW FOR SACCHARIFICATION (i.e. starch
conversion). . It is then further cooled to 35-30 C.

 

Recipe 3. Self-saccharifying zavarka

8+12 kg flour, 0.1 kg caraway seed, 55 L water

8 kg flour and ground caraway is scalded with boiling water
TO ALLOW FOR GELATINATION. The mix is stirred until no lumps of flour remain. When
the mix reaches 75 C, a further 12 kg flour is added and the mix is stirred
again. It is then kept at 65-63 C for 4-5 hours TO ALLOW FOR SACCHARIFICATION
and cooled further down to 35-30 C.

 it would seem that all 3 methods are used to convert starches into sugars, apart from the last one which also gelatinises.

The strange thing tho is, the generic bread recipe these methods go with says use 3 kg malt, yet only one method actually uses malt in zavarka. And the quantity given for that method is 5 kg! I'm not sure whether with the other 2 methods malt is not used, or used at a different stage not in zavarka? OR, did the author just fuck up.

Hope this helps, if not give me a shout and I’ll see if I
can find some more info on zavarka.

 

 

Faif

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Faif,

Many thanks for your translation efforts here.   Just had a bit of a light-bulb moment.

I remember some time ago a posting involving Daisy_A and SallyBR I believe, discussing temperature sensitivity affecting yeasts and bacteria.   I'm sure Sally pointed out that adding water hotter than these yeasts/bacteria like will not kill them all off in one go if the mixing is done swiftly enough to provided a combined temperature of greater comfort.

Perhaps this is also true of enzymes?   The use of sufficiently hot water to achieve starch gelatinisation has always been a key to success whenever I have used the hot soaker methods for any type of bread.   But I feared this meant raising and holding the zavarkha temperature high enough to achieve full gelatinisation would be too much for the enzymes in the flour to bear.   Reading your findings makes me wonder if my fears are misplaced.

For saccharification read "mash".   Holding the mix at a temperature of 60 - 66*C for malted barley mash [slightly lower for Rye] is the most efficient way to breakdown the starches and make the maximum possible amount of sugar extract available.   In beer this simply maximises the amount of possible alchohol production as the yeasts react with more sugar.   For bread, it may well produce more flavour, more sweetness and more CO2 gas, all of which could be considered desireable aspects.   Held at that temperature, the enzymes can happily get to work too.   But, over 66*C gets too hot and they will die off.

Anybody got any thoughts on the thermal deathpoint of amylase enzymes and how an inital boil-up to fully gelatinise starch is likely to impact on this enzymatic activity?

The hleb website is a great resource, many thanks for that link.   Google translate works well here!   Obviously the Auerman text is a weighty tome; it would be too much to ask you to spend so much time on it.   I'll keep searching for an English version anyway

Very best wishes

Andy

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Andy,

you may be right. I'm no biochemist (although I have a couple of friends in this trade) so can only guess.

At the same time, method 3 for zavarka makes me think that perhaps high temperatures do inactivate enzymes to a negligible level, which is why a second batch of flour is added at 75 Cand the mix is then stirred which will bring the temperature down again (I wonder how much?). My take on this is that 40% of flour is used for the jelly bit and the remaining 60% for the enzyme bit. Does that make sense?

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Andy, Hi Faith,

Great to catch up with this interesting debate that you have both launched!

I don't know if it's any help but while browsing for more information on Auerman I came across a useful board (link below), that lists the main Russian bread websites but also debates information translated from Russian, including a formula for Borodinsky after 'Royter'. Zavarka seems to be the first step in the whole process. 

The poster's adaptation doesn't use malt, which does seem from what Andy says to add a more authentic flavour. However the original Russian is also posted so perhaps a Russian reader could identify whether malt is mentioned there? 

http://www.mombu.com/cuisine/cuisine/t-list-of-major-russian-bread-websites-183782-last.html

Best wishes, Daisy_A

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Hi Daisy_A,

sorry i got a bit confused do you mean this recipe?

 I. Zavarka.
100 grams rye flour
270 grams water
1 TB kvas concentrate (koncentrat dlja susla xlebnogo kvasa)
(substitute molasses)
1 tsp coriander

II. Starter
200 grams of starter at 75% hydration

Add starter to zavarka when zavarka reaches 85 F. Ferment for 4 hours.

III. Dough
Fermented zavarka
205 grams rye flour
80 grams wheat flour
30 grams sugar
1 tsp salt

Bake at around 325 F. for 1.5 hours.
 The zavarka stage in this says to use kvas concentrate. Kvas is a fermented drink made from stale rye bread, a little similar to beer. There are different varieties of kvas concentrates but most include malt. I have no idea what type of malt it is though, it's likely to be rye malt but no idea whether red or white. UPD: just found a recipe for home-made kvas malt, the recipe is consistent with the production process for red malt but the recipe says any grain can be used - rye, wheat, barley, oat and even dry pulses. Thinking about it, kvas is a dark reddish brown colour which probably means, where rye malt is used, it'll be red malt. Also I think the author is mistaken in saying that kvas concentrate will substitute molasses - as i said, kvas concentrates vary, but they aren't usually sweet, you have to add sugar, so the stuff will only make zavarka sweet because of malt in it.

 I'll have another look at this forum when I'm more awake :)

The kind of Borodinsky most Russians would be used to these days (if we take that for measure of "authenticity") will of course be either the GOST version or one closely related to/imitating GOST and all of those would certainly include red malt. That said, there may be surviving versions of Borodinsky based on pre-GOST recipes which may not include malt.

 

Cheers,

Faith

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Hi Andy, I've had a little rethink of the whole zavarka subject, I think we (or I?) have forgotten that the amount of water determins how quickly the paste will cool down and whether enough of the enzymes would survive. See my ramblings here, does that make any sense to you? I think your light bulb idea must have been correct after all.

ananda's picture
ananda

Thanks Faith,

I've replied on the other post.

Good discussion from Alex and David there too.

Andy

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Hi Andy,

I've just discovered that there's a word for mash in Russian - zaTOR. Until now I just assumed that zavarka means either scald or mash, but no, it's certainly scald. Or at least technically it should be, although it's possible that the word zator is somehow not favoured by bakers. Also suave keeps saying in his recipes that the scald needs to be left to saccharise, but in all of his recipes I've so far looked at (he's got dozens!!) the scald is made by pouring boiling hot water over the dry ingredients (and then kept at 65 C for a couple hours). The photoes of the final product are often labelled "fully saccharised zavarka" but they look like jelly! I'm more and more inclined to think that perhaps somehow both gelatination and conversion can be achieved.

Would be very interesting to know what suave has to say on this subject.

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Faith,

my interpretation of the word zavarka was a "boil up"/scald, ie. bring the water to a rolling boil and steep the flour.   The purpose is to fully gelatinise the starch.   I first came across this technique when the Village Bakery introduced a Pane Toscano at the very outset of the campaign against excessive salt in our diets.   This was an all-wheat bread.   The purpose was twofold: firstly the heat process de-natures the protein in the flour, secondly, the technique brings about a greatly increased water absorption through the opening of the starch molecules.

I only started to have questions about this once I came across the Auerman recipe and the GOST standards with the concept of creating an extra interim ferment [the sponge], by combining sour and scald.   At that point I realised that thepurpose of the sponge must be to bring about still more intensive fermentation, as the now somewhat dormant wild yeasts in the sour are given a new lease of life through the copious amount of food offered in the sweet scald.   What was what made me relate back to brewing was the discussion about holding the scald at 60 - 66*C for the 2 hour period.   This is so similar to mashing principles so I was then thinking in terms of creating the ideal conditions for amylase to convert starches to sugars.

Sorry to say that I am no nearer to squaring this circle.   A scald creates a mixture at a temperature too high for enzymes to survive.   So, why bother with the 2 hour holding period?   Also, why is the resulting mixture sweet?   And dark?

I have stated from early in the discussion that a fully gelatinised scald produces the best results in terms of final dough quality; not surprising really given the importance of achieving high water absorption in the high rye breads

All good wishes

Andy

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

oh well... i think we'll have to employ a professional chemist to help us crack this one!

A very wild guess but... could it be the case that rye grain contains several types of starch? Some that gelate more easily and some that convert more easily? Also I keep thinking how lukewarm my scald gets after stirring... surely not hot enough for full gelation... although as I said previously it all depends on the flour/water ratio, and of course commercial quantities would hold their temperature better.

Damn. Wish I had put more effort into organic chemistry at school. I was really only ever good at inorganic.

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

About this issue regarding amylase survival... my guess is that a good part of the enzymes gets denatured by the heat of the water, while another part "survives" (so to say) partly because the temperature of the mash is influenced also by the r.t. of the flour and partly because it takes some time to evenly distribute water and flour. Moreover, I read in a book that amylase in rye flour get fully denatured only at much higher temperatures than what we are accustomed to, it may take even up to 110°C!  It's not something new: doesn't fungal amylase resist up to 85°C? (or was it bacterial amylase? I don't remember correctly).

Moreover, isn't the gelatinized flour much more easily attackable by the amylase in the unscalded flour? Sweetness can be  both a direct consequence of the scalding and a side-effect of the gelatinization.

I hope I don't write some bestiality :-) it's late.

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Andy, you're right it's late and I'm getting totally confused but I just stumbled on this:

"ƒ Gelatinisation (thickening):
When  flour  is  added  to  water the  starch  granules  begin  to  swell  on  heating.  Continued
heating  causes  the  granules  to  rupture,  with  starch  being  released  into  the  water.  The
gelatinised starch granules absorb liquid, causing the sauce to thicken." http://www.britishnutrition.org.uk/upload/Flour%20pdf.pdf

maaaaybe... just maaaaybe... not only some amylase survives, but also the starches released where heating does continue are then the ones devoured by that amylase?

Oh no, I'm certainly rambling now...

 

suave's picture
suave

There are two issues to consider here.  First is the thermodynamics of the process.  Yes, the water you pour onto the flour is piping hot, but it cools down very quickly, and by the end of mixing it is usually down to about 60 °C.  And one should keep in mind that amylases are not bacteria sitting on the outside and exposed to the temperature immediately, they are distributed through the particle of flour, meaning that the heat might need a bit of time to get to them, particularly if it is a coarse grind.

The second issue is biochemical.  Amylases are proteins, and proteins do not get denatured instantly, it takes a little bit of time to accomplish that.  It is really a very complicated topic because different amylases have very different stabilities and activities, but the bottom line is - you don't kill them all off by adding boiling water to the flour.

So is it gelatinization or saccharification?  It's really both.  Hot water gelatinizes starches, and by doing so increases the rate of sugar production because gelatinized starches are cleaved by amylases much faster.  And 65 °C is a sort of compromise temperature at which both processes do not necessarily perform at their respective best, but get to the desired point fast enough and without any overly complicated multistep procedures, like say gelatinizing the starch first by boiling, then cooling and adding diastatic malt. 

Do you get some improvement in the rheological properties of the dough, longer storage times etc. from having some remaining gelatinized starch, dextrins?  It's quite possible but I think it is a bit too much science for a home baker what with certain randomness of our techniques.

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi suave,

Thanks very much for posting the comment above, it is really useful as a summary of some complex techniques.

I have been coming round to appreciating that the Scald is to some extent a compromise to produce acceptable levels of gelatinisation and saccharification in one single step.

I appreciate your comments concerning enzyme ability to survive despite the addition of boiling water.   However, I add water on a rolling boil at c.130%  of the flour content.   This creates a mixed temperature well in excess of 70*C, although I do accept that the mix cools quite quickly.

My experience is that the more effective the gelatinisation in the Scald, the better the final paste quality; it means I rarely struggle to get water asbsorption all the way up to 85%, which produces finished bread which will easily keep a week.

I now realise that the standing period has very similar aspects to it to mashing, as I thought all along.   However, you are right that there must be a difference between what we need for bread, and what the brewers are doing to create their beer.

Thanks again for responding to this

Best wishes

Andy

suave's picture
suave

You have to understand that brewing technology is related but not exactly the same, so using the same terminology would be misleading.  In brewing, AFAIK, mashing is typically done using only diastatic malt, and the goal is to convert 100% of starch to sugars.  That's obviously not what we do in baking.

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

So what do you think happens when flour is scalded with boiling water, stirred and held at 65C? And are the chemical reactions in a rye zavarka the same as in a wheat zavarka?

I don't know anything about brewing, and far from an expert in dough chemistry either so your comments would be much appreciated.

suave's picture
suave

I wrote a separate reply to this question somewhere in this thread.  Chemically wheat and rye should be similar, but gelatinization most likely does not occur at the same rate/extent.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/24237/celebrating-rye-breads#comment-184289

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

apologies I didn't see that one. Yes it totally makes sense to me now

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Hi Faith,

forst of all thanks for all the informations you provided. Can you tell me if the  document you have details the temperatures of the various stages to get red the red malt?

Andy, your fears regarding the inactivation sensitivities of enzymes are exactly the same as mine, so much that recently I prefer to make a cold mash and bring the temperature gradually to 65°. What kind of barley malt do you believe to be the most similar to red rye malt?

Thanks.

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Hi Nico,

the Auerman textbook doesn't say anything about the temperatures for malt. It only has a small section on malt, roughly a page long. I'll try and find that in other sources if you're interested

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Hi Nico,

I've just stumbled upon this
discussion
 on how to make red malt. Hope this helps!

Faith

 

 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Nico,

I believe the Red Malt which I found is the equivalent of what brewers in the UK call Crystal Barley Malt.   It has been further dried, then ground to a powder.

It is the same grade used commonly on the Continent, especially Belgium and Germany, to give colour to the darker beers.

The roasting is relatively light, but it has still been taken to too high a temperature for enzyme activity to survive.

The Red Malt made from Rye which is referenced by Faif and others from the hleb site, from Auerman's formulae too, is the same; lightly roasted, but enzyme inactive.

Very best wishes

Andy

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Andy,

I know nothing about malts and the range produced by beer brewers, but there is such a thing as crystal rye malt - would that be any similar to red rye malt do you think?

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

Andy,

have you seen bennykirk's post on this thread? He uses a dark-coloured barley crystal malt for his rye breads. I don't know anything about brewers' malts, would crystal malt be similar to red malt supplied by Bakery Bits?

FoodFascist's picture
FoodFascist

oh you are on that thread sorry

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Faith,

I'm more than happy using the Red Malt from Bakery Bits.   I believe it will perform very similarly to the crystal malt Alex refers to in the post you reference.

For all that, I agree with you that the authentic Red Malt in Russia would come from Rye, and not Barley.   To that end, it would be of interest to use a rye source rather than barley.

I believe Alex is arguing that there is little difference, and that the barley source makes a perfectly acceptable substitute.   I cannot see any reason to challenge this either; the red malt from barley immediately added a whole new dimension to the rye sourdough baking which I do.

All good wishes

Andy

suave's picture
suave

Taste and aroma of red rye malts is drastically different from that of caramelized barley malts, you will never mistake one for the other.  Rye malts have much deeper flavor, they smell like bread.  Barley will give you dark color (hence its use in ersatz coffee), but not much else.  This difference is also quite obvious in baked bread.

ananda's picture
ananda

Thank you suave,

Unfortunately rye red malt is not available in the UK to my knowledge.

I found the Barley red malt I used to be quite flavoursome; surprisingly so.   We have a drink called Barleycup over here in the UK; it gained a nickname of "blandycup" in the wholefood circles I moved in in the late 1980s, awful stuff!

I have been offered some from a colleague soon to be travelling to Russia.

I am happy to stand corrected if you have direct experience of using rye based red malt.   This just makes me keener still to use it for myself.

Best wishes

Andy

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