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Hobart N50 restoration experience

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breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Hobart N50 restoration experience

As  a followup to my original N50 thread: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/23049/n50-arrivednow-refurb

I'm reporting my experiences stripping down and refurshing my recently-acquired second-hand Hobart N50 mixer (which now will sit alongside my DLX2000). Hopefully it will be useful to anyone else taking this (not too difficult) project on. Unfortunately I didn't take any before pictures (lazy me!), but it was in somewhat beaten-up shape with well-worn paint over most of the base. A nice collection of photos of another person's strip and rebuild can be found here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/zug/sets/72157622051782719/

Parts were missing - the rubber feet, attachment cap and thumbscrew, no dough hook or beater attachment. The Hobart logo sticker was worn. The gear cover plate was warped. The bowl latch spring was broken. She did run, and run smoothly in all gears, but I had always bought it with the goal of a full tear down, repaint and rebuild.

The N50 service manual helped a little, but it is definitely doable without the service manual, which doesn't have any really useful information (such as how to properly set up most of the shims and washers to obtain best operation). Still, it's worthwhile having in additon to the parts diagrams freely available from Hobart.

Firstly, I ordered all of the missing / worn / broken parts. So far so good. As discussed in the thread above, I ordered some Morey synthetic 'blue' food grade grease (expensive - and incorrect - see below). During the strip down, which is mostly a methodical and logical process assuming you have the usual basic tools, patience and a modicum of mechanical knowledge, all went well. You will need some pin punches to drive out the various shaft pins. Other than that, no special equipment needed. The technique in the service manual of hitting the accessory hub attachment with a hammer in order to separate the motor housing from the gear housing is very worthwhile.

The most major problem in the rebuild occurred at this stage.... having removed the motor from the housing, I subsequently dropped the housing on the concrete floor! It was immediately obviously dented - ouch! I completed the tear down, removed all of the old (brown, discoloured) grease from the gear housing and took all of the paintable parts to the powder coaters. There, we discovered that the motor housing wouldn't mate properly to the gear housing due to the dent. Poppping across to the engineering shop, I thought all was a relief, as they managed to gently tap the housing back into (what I thought) was the correct shape, as it aligned and fitted once more to the gear housing. Whew (or so I thought). Got the bits back from the powder coaters, and the bowl lift handle back from the metal re-platers (it's nickle, in case you're interested). Also got some new decals printed using a Hobart logo online: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hobart_logo.svg

I then reassembled the gears and transmission and packed it with the Morey synthetic blue... some disgustingly sticky, tacky stuff. Now the real pain - the stator wouldn't fit into the still-distorted motor housing - arrrrgh! It's such a tight fit with no tolerance for variance. I tried filing the fins off the inside of the motor housing - and did get it to fit - but of course the rotor then wouldn't line up within it, while still rotating freely with the starter housing on. Realising that I would need a new stator housing was painful in the extreme - but that's what you get for dropping the most expensive piece of the mixer! Determined to see the project through I bit the large bullet and ordered a new housing which arrived in due course. I finally refitted the the motor and connected it all up. Hit the start switch to test... A loud "hummmmmm", but no rotation!! It turns out two problems were occurring:

1) The blue synthetic morey grease was just too tacky. Although it's a NLGI grade 2 viscocity (the correct one), it is extremely tacky stuff. Changing to a different synthtic but soapy-type grease (similar to the original stuff, but synthetic) - hooray!

2) The contacts on the start switch (not the on-off switch, but the switch at the rear of the housing) were not being adequately compressed. I'm not sure why this is, but I have managed to shim between the rotor and switch so that it turns on and off. It's a fine balance between the mixer turning on properly and having the contacts too close so they're shorting. One day I might take it to the local mixer service agent for a quick look, but for now it's working just fine.

 

I made the first batch of pizza dough and a sourdough bread with it yesterday - and it is a fantastic mixer. It's less work than my DLX2000 - in fact it's no work at all, in that I don't have to babysit the initial process to ensure ingredients are properly incorporating, or ensure the dough is still rotating around the bowl properly. I look forward to trying it out with drier pasta and bagel dough later this week.

As you can see from the photos below - it's a custom two-tone colour, since I couldn't be bothered getting the new motor housing poweder coated in the same colour as the other bits I'd gotten done. I like the effect, I've decided! The new motor housing also came with the warning plate attached, and has a larger bolt at the front corner - visible in the first picture - holding it onto the column (which necessitated tapping a larger 3/8th" hole into the column).

Overall, it's been a fun project (dropped housing notwithstanding). I've learnt a lot - and can now pull the mixer to bits in about 5-10 minutes.

 

 

PeterS's picture
PeterS

Lookin' good. Congrats.

Doc.Dough's picture
Doc.Dough

It looks like new. Hope that it runs that way too.
So now that you are done with it and can add up all the costs (except for the time spent and the enjoyment received) how did you fare relative to the cost of a new one?

It also looks like the cooling is all conduction via the stator and out to the case through the fins. Is that right? I guess that the grease carries some heat from the gears to the housing, but they are quite efficient so I expect that 90% of the heat is from the magnetic losses and coil resistance.

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Yeah - it runs fine! Or at least as quiet / smooth as when I got it, which is OK by me.

This is especially good since the adjustment screw for the eccentric shaft was frozen in place (and made even more frozen by the powder coating). So, luckily I didn't have to adjust it in order to get the gears running quietly.

In terms of heat, it did two 900g pizza doughs one after the other (8-9 minutes each), and the motor housing was just barely warm. Yes, cooling is by simple conduction (and then radiation). And the 600g of grease in the housing is another decently-sized heat sink.

The only 'not perfect' aspect is when starting. Because the rotor is shimmed to the starting switch, sometimes it needs to be turned a few degrees by hand (via the planetary) in order for the starting contacts points to meet properly so the motor starts (rather than hums). As mentioned above I may get it looked at one day, but it really is a very minor issue.

Cost-wsie it was still cheaper than a new one... which is $5,000 here in NZ! I'm not sure how that price is justified given the strength of the USD/NZD, but there you go. I got the mixer second hand for $800NZD - they very rarely come up for sale here (although another went for $400 a month later on our largest online auction site - sigh!). The new stator housing was $1300NZD - *ouch*. The price of parts for these mixers is, I suppose, governed by the lack of OEM parts and the strict distribution channels Hobart is able to maintain. They're a bit like Stihl chainsaws in that regard.

I suspect I could have saved a few dollars by asking a friend/relative in the US to obtain the housing from Hobart USA and then shipping it here privately. I did have an option to purchase another second hand N50 for less than this price, but at the end of the day, I didn't want to tear down a working N50 just to scavenge it for parts - a bit sentimental, I know. I'd also set my sights of restroring this one - and if you've ever done car restoration (as I have) - it's a labour of love and doesn't make any financial sense! In a blatant act of self-justification - all up it cost about $2800 NZD - still much cheaper than a new one AND I now have the equivalent of a diploma in N50 servicing. And do you know the price of tertiary education these days? :)

As a last query, the new bowl spring latch I received from Hobart doesn't quite seem to hold the bowl as tightly as I remember it being on my brother's kitchen aid Pro. It doesn't "click" into place. I've attached a photo below. To those who have an N50 - how tight is the fit on yours? It looks to me as thought the spring is about 3mm too short.

 

[UPDATE 21/7/11] The top right-angled part of the spring latch broke off cleanly this morning, through where the red line is on the photo below, when I bumped the bowl lip on it. Although initially annoying, it has allowed the two screws to be properly tightened, and now the spring latch sits lower and operates perfectly - yay!! Interestingly, the part is illustrated without this top piece in the Hobart catalog.]

gonnacook's picture
gonnacook

This looks fantastic. My N-50 bowl fits very snug so I hope yours does now too. I have a little trouble with my 1 2 3 switch too. I would like to have it fixed one day, but I had my N-50 serviced when I first got it and it runs great other than occasionally making sure the speed handle is properly set into the speed of choice: 1, 2 or 3. It also has some missing paint where the bowl sits, but for now I can live with that. I would really like to have mine powder coated a color. Can't decide what color though.

drmike's picture
drmike

I just read your wonderful account.  Very impressive!  A few years ago I was lucky to purchase an N-50 mixer in great condition.  At what point do you know it requires re-greasing?

drmike's picture
drmike

I just read your wonderful account.  Very impressive!  A few years ago I was lucky to purchase an N-50 mixer in great condition.  At what point do you know it requires re-greasing?

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Unless you *know* when it was last greased, it probably needs replacing - many of thesemixers are decades old now. You could always take the gear selector cover off and have a peek at the grease in there... if it's yellowed/brown and looks dry, that'd be another indication (as a comparison you can see how the fresh grease looks).

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

As a further followup, I managed to locate a couple of photos of the mixer before I started on it. Although it doesn't look too bad in these, it was quite rough around the edges and the photos belied the fact that it wasn't just a quick powder coat of the base.

 

Leolady's picture
Leolady

I saw your posts on WACEM and I am so pleased you was able to restore this workhorse!  Congratulations!

Altmed's picture
Altmed

I'm curious if the hooks, wisks. mixers blades, etc. are interchangeable between KA & Hobart & if so, which models, or are they all interchangeable? 

I was surprised to read on another post that apparently part of the bowl-lift mechanism on the Hobart N50 (perhaps on newer models) is plastic?

I remember when all moving parts on higher quality mixers were all metal. Are there any that still are?

Thanks in advance & congrats on your project! Looks like it will last for many, many years to come!

johnr55's picture
johnr55

I own a half-dozen mixers in DLX and Bosch, and a couple of more in vintage.  To me, the small accommodation you make with starting is what can give a machine its own idiosyncratic personality.  As with automobiles, even two coming off an assembly line will have differences.  You are obviously more talented in the mechanical area than I am, and your work is beautiful.  Congratulations!

kbarb's picture
kbarb

Hi,

Just happened on your site, as I'm looking to regrease my N-50 as well.

Your machine looks great - nice job !

I know it's been a while but I have a few questions if that's ok . . .

1. Do you remember what you ended up using for grease, if the Morey grease didn't work out so well ?

2. Also, I'm pretty sure I'll have to re-grease the planetary gears. But for the gear-box - do you get to that going in from the back ?

3. I take it you just went by the exploded parts diagrams, right ? AFAIK, the manuals are not made available by Hobart.

4. Did you have to do any special adjustments - gear shimming and the like - to get it back running smoothly ?

 Thanks a lot if you have a moment.

 

Kent

San Francisco

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

1. Rocol Sapphire foodlube (http://www.georgehenry.co.nz/product_pcid_1447.html). It's pretty similar to the official Hobart stuff in terms of grade and texture. Not sure if it would be available locally, but something similar will be.

2. No - through the side cover (behind the gear selector lever) is the easiest way to push in some fresh grease for a top up. For a full exchange of grease however, you'll need to dissassemble the whole mixer and scoop out all of the old grease from the transmission housing (that's the front half, as opposed to the motor housing, which is the read half).

3. Yes - but after I was nearly done, I got access to the N50 service manual which makes life easier. Private message me if you want me to email you.

4. No - without the maual, I wasn't sure of clearances. Further, one of the adjustment screws was stuck in place, and I never bothered to use an extractor to free it. With the manual, there is a good guide to the amount of shimming you need to achieve the factory-spec and also a good guide to "tuning" it so the gears run as smoothly as possible. Luckily, mine runs smoothly despite the above!

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

hello Breadman_NZ

 

I just wanted to say thanks a bunch for your different posts on various sites regarding the refurbishing of an n50.  I recently purchased an n50 as a Christmas present for my girlfriend.  She really wants a kitchenaid, but yeah, I'm not getting a new one, and after doing some internetting, it seems like the n50 is the way to go for a heavy duty 5qt. 

It is a 1954 model and still works wonderfully, actually.  It came with a kitchenaid bowl, so I went ahead and purchased the '256' spiral hook for it like you recommended on another site, as well as the hobart EDDdough-005 whatever it is spiral hook.  the hobart hook has not come in just yet. 

my quest now is to search for and hunt down all the gorgeous metal attachments by kitchenaid and hobart for this thing.  can't wait to surprise her with it all, haha.

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

I took lots of tips from others, and learned a lot, so share and share alike! The Flickr site with the photos of another N50 restoration were really nice, but it seems it's been turned into a private album now, sadly.

It's great to read you've got such an old N50 up for restoration - 48 years old. Not many kitchen appliances can claim that sort of longievity, especially one that works as hard as a dough kneader. Gotta love commercial gear. You will NOT regret the N50 over a domestic KA, in my opinion. Effortless power.

The #12 hub of the A120 and larger mixers has a far larger, more commercial range of attachments available - although the #10 hub of the N50 is compatible with the cheaper (and more cheaply made in general) KA attahments, which is good in its own way.

I've got my eye on this N50 metal mincer attachment ... seems to be very good quality: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Meat-Grinder-Food-Chopper-attachment-for-Hobart-N50-c100-ce100-Mixer-/160868917213?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item257488dfdd

If you get the above mincer, I'd be keen to know how you find it, since I'll probably get it (at some point over the next few years).

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

I may get that grinder.  I am for right now trying to get it to knead and operate perfectly in terms of the heights and what not.  with the 256 dough hook it struggles to get the mix going at the bottom when using small amounts.  the majority of the size of baking that we do is like,  1/2 cup of starter , 1/2 cup of water, and 1 1/2 cups of flour.  it makes enough for a nice small round that is perfect sized for the two of us.  I practiced with that mixture amount and the 256 hook wouldn't even get it going, haha.  So one of two things needs to happen.  the first is that I need to wait until the hobart hook arrives, and try that out, and the second is I might need to get more used to mixing up more batches of dough. 

I have no idea what i'm doing. I will admit that.  But as an engineer, I know that starting with quality equipment and tooling is the best way forward, so that's why I went with this little hobart. 

So far I have ordered the spring clip for the back of the bowl (on the lift mechanism), new rubber feet, and a kitchenaid whisk and flat beater for this thing. 

One thing I am really interested in finding would be a pastry knife for this guy.  It looks like they are pretty rare, and were only really on the early model G kitchenaids and the early hobart n50's.  It doesn't look too different from a flat beater though.. Maybe I could cut down parts of the flat beater to turn it into a pastry knife?  Taking off one side of it and those horizontal braces could turn it into a makeshift pastry knife...

Once I figure out how to get the regular dough kneading going I will start moving forward with getting attachments that also work for it.  Thanks for the link, I might just give that very grinder a try.

 

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Yup - I had the same problem to a greater or lesser degree with all of the hooks. Here's the solution:

1. Use the beater to bring the dough together - about 30 seconds or so. You might want to give a quick mix by hand or pulse the mixer on and off for 1/2 second pulses to prevent flour from spraying everywhere.

2. Once you've done the above, switch to the hook and knead away.

If you manage to source a pastry knife, let me know! :)

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

Is the pastry knife no longer available from hobart? I have a part number for it, but I am not sure whether or not it will even still be available. 

 

Leolady's picture
Leolady

The pastry knife for the N50 has not been available for many many years.  Hobart still has them for other larger mixers.

Back when I was actively buying KA and Hobart mixers for my collection, you could buy a pastry knife for $20 or so on Ebay.  I was able to buy one for each of my two chrome model G mixers without any trouble at all.  A pastry knife came with my Hobart N50.

I think I am partly to blame for the scarcity of the pastry knives.  I touted them so much on the old Kitchenaid Mixer forum that they became popular.  Those that have them now, won't let them go.

Now............they are few and far between and cost a fortune.

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

I had the opportunity to come across something else that caught my eye on your website!!!

 

it's the copper insert you speak of!  


How will this help baking, or is it only good for when whipping up eggs?  Will it help with cookies and pies and stuff?  From what I can tell anything involving egg whites or sugar and it will whip up much better?

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

Here is the grinder I ended up buying.

New old stock Aluminium / Steel  hobart-kitchenaid food grinder.

 

I think i'm going to get the 'new school'  pasta press attachment for it.

 

 

kbarb's picture
kbarb

@ratatouille . . .

That's very generous of you to go to all the trouble of tracking down the venerable N-50 for your girlfriend.

Myself, years ago when my grandmother passed on and all her stuff was divvied up amongst family, I said the only thing I really wanted was the N-50. It's gotten a lot of use ever since, and nice memories as well.

One thing . . . how do I say this . . .

re : " She really wants a kitchenaid, but yeah, I'm not getting a new one,"

As I'm sure you know, we engineer types and guys in general love machinery. But from what I've seen, not all women are quite so entranced with the idea of industrial machinery, if you get my drift. So if she's really got her heart set on something new and sleek, and perhaps expecting it, I'd hate to see you in an awkward moment when she opens her Christmas present. She'll most likely end up loving it, but have you thought about how you're going to present and explain that vaunted baking wonder ?  You know, just so she isn't awkwardly crestfallen, with you not being quite as appreciated as you deserve - but instead she realizes what a great gift she's getting.  ;-)

Maybe she's a machinery nut, I don't know.

It's funny, I've had several female housemates over the years, and almost every one of them has put a nice piece of fabric over the TV in their room, should they have one. Most males just don't seem to mind. Just an observation.

Good luck with your project !

Kent

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

I'm lucky my wife likes (or at least tolerates) my whims of having large, over-engineered commercial-style gear in the kitchen. It fits our "buy once, buy right" mentality along with recycling second-hand stuff and having that stuff be repairable/restorable rather than disposable. 

... at least that's how I'd be selling it to your better half! As WE know, having an N50 will make you the envy of your mates and those in the know.

Leolady's picture
Leolady

I have ALWAYS believed in the philosophy that you buy the best once!  Not only in mixers, but in other kitchen appliances. 

That is why I have a Robot Coupe R2 Food Processor rather than a Cuisinart!  And I like buying the commercial small appliances that have lived in commercial kitchens for my home.  Why buy something new when you can have something even better for the same or less money?

In my group of girl friends, we all have this philosophy.  I don't think it is a male thing.

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

So I'm slightly confused now. 

 

After reading this page:

http://leoladysw.blogspot.com/

It looks like the kitchenaid model G and hobart n50 parts and pieces are interchangeable when it comes to beaters/whips/hooks, but the regular kitchenaid K5A / K5SS style attachments won't necessarily work because the depths are off.  Is there truth to this?  What kind of dimensional differences do we have? 


I don't believe my hobart N50 is using the correct bowl with it; honestly I have no idea what bowl it has.  Here are some photos of it.

 

Should I get the correct bowl?  Will this thing fit the kitchenaid bowl with it or the hobart bowl with it better? 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Metro-Design-Beater-Blade-for-5-Quart-KitchenAid-Bowl-Lift-Mixers-White-/200824266209?pt=Small_Kitchen_Appliances_US&hash=...

 

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

That's a beautiful vintage nameplate, switch and gear lever - I assume you're going to clean those up and reuse, rather than buying new bits? The new ones aren't as stylish as those old ones by a long shot!

Leolady's picture
Leolady

Is a Kitchenaid bowl.  You can tell by the top rim being enclosed.  This is not a NSF approved bowl like the N50 would have.  But for home use, it does not matter and makes absolutely no difference.  I am Leoladysw and the blog you quoted is my own blog.

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

What happens if i use regular K5A based attachments for it?  I believe the height will be incorrect as I need to get hobart n50 / kitchenaid Model G  specific attachments such as dough hook / beater / whisk ?

 

 

Leolady's picture
Leolady

You are correct.  The 5A attachments will be too short and too narrow compared to the N50 attachments.

kbarb's picture
kbarb

I can confirm that. I have both an N-50 and a Kitchenaid K5-SS.

The bowls appear to be exactly the same size - although the N-50 bowl has the flange lip. The K5-SS bowl works fine on the N-50 with the N-50 attachments though.

But the N-50 attachments are about 5/8" longer, so they couldn't be used on the K5-SS - they would interfere at the bottom of the bowl. I tried it.

Conversely, the K5-SS attachments work on the N-50, but then there's ~5/8" more of gap at the bottom.

I guess the K5-SS pulls the bowl up just that much higher, so its own attachments work without too much of a gap.

The attachment widths appear to be about the same, at least for the whisk and mixer paddle.

 

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

Wow, that is awesome!  You have quite an amazing site, I would like to say thanks for all the wonderful information :)

Leolady's picture
Leolady

Thank you, for visiting my blog.  I am glad you like it.

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

By the way, a Kitchenaid bowl spring latch fits perfectly on this 1954 N50.  The one I ordered is this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/120985618341?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Based on possibly breadman_nz's recommendation!

 

kbarb's picture
kbarb

 

breadman_nz :

When you put grease into the gearbox through the gear lever opening, did you more or less fill it up ?

Btw, for anyone else doing this without a grease-gun, one way to try is to partially fill a freezer zip-lock bag, close it, then snip one of the bottom corners to create a poor man's pastry decorating cone.

 

ps: I got your pm - replied - thanks very much.

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Yep - just keep pushing it in there. It would be damn near impossible to over grease it. Although with a grease gun, you could get more in, any excess is going to ooze back out the gearbox cover anyway.

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

One thing I noticed is that the '54 N50 has two little zerk fittings for oil to be added every couple of uses in addition to requiring grease.  One at the front right near the PTO, one at the rear at the round casing on the back.  I am not sure what kind of oil to put in it, do I have to call hobart on this one, or does anyone know?

 

 

kbarb's picture
kbarb

You beat me to it - I was going to ask the same question today.

The 1983 Hobart service manual recommends Emergol HLP-68 (which I think is a mispelling of Energol HLP-68) - for motor bearings, motor bearing wick, and thumb screw. That's the only mention of "oil".

Btw, are those motor sleeve bearings . . . ball bearings ? or just bushing bearings - anyone know ?

Another old N-50 manual recommends 3 drops of oil in each fitting, once a month.

 

"Energol HLP-68" is a BP owned brand of mineral based hydraulic fluid with antiwear additives.
It's generally used for bearing, gear, hydraulic systems, variable speed changers, etc.

As far as viscosity, it's more or less equivalent to SAE 80W Gear oil, or SAE 20 Engine oil . I would think that if you can't find the right hydraulic fluid, the gear oil would be the better choice - more on that in a minute.

Btw, here are some tables with equivalents :

I happen to have some Kal-Gard SAE20 motorcycle fork oil - which is a hydraulic oil - w/ molybdenum additive for anti-wear - so I might use that. But I don't think that particular oil is made anymore.

That's the short answer - now for a little explanation, probably putting way to fine a point on it. But I was curious so I looked up a few things. If someone has a better short answer I'd like to know. Somehow I doubt it's really all that critical.

=======================================================

re: HLP-68


HLP oil is a classification of Hydraulic Oil - meaning a mineral oil based type, and the "P" means "antiwear additives".
See http://www.hk-hydraulik.com/en/hydraulics-encyclopaedia/hydraulic-liquids

 

The "68" part is a viscosity rating from the ISO viscosity rating system, which rates oils for performance at 40°C.

     There are equivalents in the SAE system - see the chart here :
     http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

     You can see the line from ISO 68 (at the left) lining up with SAE 20 Engine Oil and SAE 80W Gear Oil
     on the right.
     Engine oil has a different scale from Gear oil - so you can see that Gear oil SAE 80w is about equivalent, actually,
     to SAE 20 Engine Oil. (It's not equivalent to SAE 80 Engine oil.)


About Engine Oil vs Gear Oil
:

Engine Oil lubrication basically relies on a thin film of oil developed by an oil pump.
But gears don't normally have pumped oil, so they use oil w/ special additives to handle the more extreme pressures they endure.
I'm thinking if you can't find hydraulic oil, use gear oil, as we don't have pumped oil pressure in the N-50.
See : http://www.amsoil.com/articlespr/2007/article_gearoilbasics.aspx

 


The "W" in SAE 80W stands for "Winter" - a designation for oils whose viscosity is measured at low temperatures (not 40°C). So SAE 80W means that in low temps, the oil performs like Gear oil SAE 80 at the normal higher temp. So it's actually lower viscosity than SAE 80 to be able to perform like it - at lower temps. I think I got that right.  ;-)
See :  http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

 

That's the back story - if anyone comes up with a great oil solution, I'd like to know.

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

I've done a bit of oil research myself in my motorsports engineering days, and you're pretty much spot on with everything regarding the oil viscosities!  However I would like to make a small clarification regarding the famous W number, and how confusing it is/can be.

The W means a couple of things sort of.  The W is associated with -18c.  No letter is associated with 100c , only the SAE designation. 

Quote from S. Peterson on BobistheOilGuy ( Another great oil forum for oil enthusiasts;  oil : bobistheoilguy :: bread : thefreshloaf;

"

If there is only one number (SAE 20) it means the lubricant viscosity falls within the viscosity band for 20 weight oil at 100°C (212°F), sometimes called the summer classification.

If there is a number followed by the letter W (SAE 20W) it means the lubricant falls within the viscosity band for 20 weight oil at -18°C (0°F), sometimes called the winter classification.

There is a band or range of acceptable viscosity for each viscosity weight or grade at each temperature. Sometimes liquid lubricants meet both the lower winter and the higher summer viscosity requirements, and carry numbers such as SAE 10W-30. SAE 10W-30 means that at -18°C (0°F) the oil viscosity falls within the 10 weight band, and at 100°C (212°F) the oil viscosity falls within the 30 weight band. Such lubricants are called multi-viscosity lubricants, and are made by adding specially selected VI improvers to 10 weight oil.

"

Another great site, KEWengineering.co.uk has this chart to show the temperature grade relationships between SAE 5W, SAE 40, and SAE5W40 

My kitchen is never going to be -18c, and I hope this little N50 never sees 100C !! 

 

kbarb's picture
kbarb

Thanks for that . . . I'd wondered what temp "W" is associated with. So it's -18c or 0°F.
I didn't actually get time to look around on bobsyouruncle's site, or whatever it is . . . bobistheoilguy.com - but there's really a lot of info there.

That last link on my post above has a pretty good discussion of that too :
Motor Oil Viscosity Grades Explained in Layman's Terms
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

 

Having said all that . . . what to do ?

I was going to use my Kal-Gard SAE20 motorcycle fork oil - w/ molybdenum - but shied away from that because I couldn't bring myself to put black oil on that wick.

So I have some SAE30 hydraulic jack oil, took out the wick, and put a few drops in there just to hold it over.
It was pretty dry and probably hasn't been oiled in a million years.
I doubt the SAE30 is really going to cause any problems.
I think it's just a sleeve/bushing type bearing in there.
When I get the right thing I can flush it out.

Curious, what are you thinking of ?

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

I have yet to disassemble this guy, so I don't know what sort of condition it is.  For the motor bearings and everything, i will probably use this:  

 

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/degreasers-lubricants/lubricants-food-grade/tri-flow-synthetic-food-grade-oil-iso-68-1-4-oz-tube?utm_source=go...

 

For the grease I will probably use the mobil gearbox grease spec'd per Hobart.


I've actually contacted mixed up jake to see if they'd like to do a sort of vintage resto collab on it. 

 

 

 

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

The Hobart EDDOUGH-ALU005 arrived, and is almost exactly 5/8" longer like you guys said!  I will mix up some dough (even though I do not have an oven in the homewood suites... hmm, i wonder if i tip the girl who makes breakfast if she'd bake a loaf of bread i make up and then leave it in my room while i'm at work.. hahahaha!!!

I will make a video of it kneading up some dough, and maybe you guys can tell me if everything sounds / looks good??

 

I also ordered the hobart flat beater and the whisk from wasserstrom as well, so hopefully we will have the basic stuff on the way.  I'm really also looking at the pasta press attachment as well as the traditional pasta roller and ravioli maker.. 


SO MANY ATTACHMENTS TO GET, OMG, it's like a choose your own adventure!!!!!!

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

This thing works a squillion times better than the KNS256BDH!  Especially for small amounts of dough like I have been testing with.   It kneads like a boss, but does seem like it starts to climb up the dough hook just a little bit.  I didn't notice any climbing with the 256BDH. 

 

I have NO idea what I'm doing!  Seriously!  Is my girlfriend going to be just as lost with one of these mixers? 

 

I also had the chance to whip up some eggs.  OMG.  wow. this thing is like cheating. haha. 

 

ggage's picture
ggage

My reconditioned n-50 makes a bit of noise on fast speed ,if I pull the shift lever gently toward 2nd speed the noise is reduced a great deal . It is a newer model with the large on/off and shift plate , is there an adjustment that can be made , the machine looks the same as your machine breadman. I rarely use speed 3 but would adjust it if it were not a teardown issue.  G Gage

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

:)

 

 

heck yeahhhhhhh

 

After a wonderful conference call with MixedUpJake, I've decided to move forward with that project as well!  This n50 is going to get the full on Hobart /MixedUpJake  retro refurb done to it, complete witha  custom paint job and what not... Can't wait to share details with it...

tkellyd's picture
tkellyd

Hi Ratatouille:

OMG!!  Where did you get it?!  Must have!

-  T

ratatouille's picture
ratatouille

Well, I guess I should post that the mixer has arrived at MixedUpJake / Hobart!  They have received it two days after I shipped it!  Go UPS!  I sent it along with the pastry knife, aluminium spiral hobart dough hook, aluminium hobart flat beater , and a stainless steel bowl. 

I asked them to please have  Hobart Technician go over it and adjust it for use with the flat beaters etc so that nothing hits, and if necessarry, get any new hardware/components/genuine hobart bowls/etc in order to make it as good as it can be.  The last thing I want to do is break this pastry knife!!

The concept for now is going to be kept secret, but as the date moves closer I will share it with you guys :) :) :)   

 

 

 

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Some hooks, whisks and blades are interchangeable with the bowl-lift, narrow bowl 'heavy duty' or 'professional' KA's. The bowl itself is too. However, your mileage will definitely vary - and with the relatively modest price of the proper dough hook (ED-ALU005), whisk and beater, you might as well get them - they really are delightfully solid chunks of aluminium! The catalog I linked to below also lists the correct part numbers for the attachments.

There is a plastic space in the bowl lift mechanism, in the column of the mixer (part illustrated as number 32, on page 6, 00-241-764, arm - bowl lift) as seen at this parts catalog: http://hobart.co.kr/manual_pdf//022.pdf

I don't know how long it's been plastic, but it doesn't really have any bearing on the rest of the mixer, and seems appropriately engineered for its location and purpose. There is no perceived cheapness or weakness in an N50!

kbarb's picture
kbarb

@ breadman_nz  (or anyone else actually)

When you did your rebuild, did you notice any ball bearings in the machine ?

I have some kind of noise in my N-50 that sounds very much like a dry ball bearing.
( However when the machine is really working hard you actually don't hear it because there is enough back pressure or force on the gear train to take up any slack, thus there's virtually no vibration that would be creating noise. )
Otherwise it's pretty loud, but the machine does run well and gets all three speeds.

Back there when we were having the grease and oil discussion I pushed some of the "flung" grease in the gearbox back on to the gears themselves, but that didn't seem to stop that dry-bearing type noise. I thought all or almost all of the bearings were sleeve bearings.
Also I regreased the plantetary gears.

I think either I'm going to have to buy some grease and really fill up the gearbox, or take the whole thing apart and find out what's running dry.

Btw, that gearbox is really supposed to be filled up with grease ?

Any thoughts ?

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

There are no ball bearings, only sleeve bearings.

Mine makes a little rattling noise like dry bearings, but I don't worry about it too much, especially since all looked well when I was last in there a few weeks ago.

The rattle is probably due to slight maladjustment of the gears, or wear and tear of the gears, bearings or washers and spacers - will take a tear down and inspection and replacement of any worn parts and readjustmnt to factory specs. to be sure.The service manual gives a good sequence for adjusting the gears to minimise noise in each of the gears, but one of my adjusters is stuck, so I haven't bothered.

It's quite quick (like 5 minutes) to get the front half and rear half of the mixer apart to properly inspect and regrease (assuming nothing is seized). Grease capacity is listed in the manual as "20fl oz." of Darina #2 grease. To get it in there I'd recommend either a wooden spatula to poke it all the way down, or a grease gun with a flexible hose. It's a dry sump, so no oil, just lots of grease!

kbarb's picture
kbarb

Thanks very much breadman !

That answered all my questions and more.

Mine is really making much too loud a rattling noise - as you say, probably an adjustment and/or needs more grease.
But since it doesn't sound like it's too big a deal to open it up, and I have the manual, I think I'll do it.
I've rebuilt a couple of auto transmissions before so hopefully I'm up to it.
Just like being a kid again and taking apart mom's toaster to see if I can get it back together again.

ggage's picture
ggage

Hi kbarb-if you have the sevice manual would you care to share it ? I have a parts maual already  .

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

PM me.

kbarb's picture
kbarb

We were having that discussion back in October about grease . . . .

So I was looking to buy some KitchenAid grease (part# 4176597) on Amazon, but a reviewer there (the first review) recommends Tri-Flow Synthetic H1 Food Grease (Tri-Flow stock number TF22021).

See :

Amazon page for KitchenAid grease 4176597 - first review

Amazon page for Tri-Flow Synthetic Grease

The Triflow product is a PTFE (teflon) grease and the application is described as "Use on gaskets, O-rings, conveyors, sterilizer chains, slides, pool equipment, electric motors, water filters, and universal joints."
But I don't see anything there about gears, which endure higher forces.

I can't seem to find anything about it's wear resistance properties.

Any of you have any thoughts on that ?
It does seem like it might work.

 

les_garten's picture
les_garten

Awesome rebuild here!

I have an N50, it's awesome.  I use it for Pizza dough.  Most likely will do some bread at some point as well.

Does anyonw know if this Ice Cream Maker attachment will work?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IES80/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=savcenwitsen-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399369&creativeASIN=B0002IES80

I need to get mine apart to clean it out and regrease it.  Is there a procedure outlined anywhere?  The pix on Flikr didn't really help me figure out how to get it apart.

Sometmes it makes a little noise like it needs a gear lash adjustment, so I'd like to give it a clean, grease, and adjustment.

 

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

Yes, that mixer/attachment will almost certainly will fit an N50. Seems to get good reviews - if you get it for your N50, let us know how it goes - I might get one!

Send me a private message if you want the N50 service manual, but the basic procedure to get the front half off to allow proper regreasing is:

1. Unplug mixer

2. Remove the rear cover and take of the starter cage (4 small nuts)

3. Use a long shaft large flat blade screw driver to undo the 7 bolts holding the two halves of the mixer together.

4. Take off the side cover (the one the gear lever sticks out of)

5. Gently disengage the gear lever from the internal cam - it should be obvious how - and note how it goes back together

6. Now you can separate the two halves of the mixer body. Place a rag over the attachment hub and tap over the top of the hub with a rubber mallet, which should separate the two pieces (don't let it drop!).

7. Scoop out / wash out grease and replace with new stuff. If you're keen, by all means fiddle with the gears and washers.

8. Reassemble in reverse order

 

Good luck!

les_garten's picture
les_garten

Thanx for that description.  That's not at all how I thought it came apart!

les_garten's picture
les_garten

I bought and installed the KA KICA0WH Ice Cream Maker attachment.  Willmake some ice cream in the next few days.

 

Here's the Link.

http://youtu.be/ZC1TQ3GLhy8

les_garten's picture
les_garten
fischi's picture
fischi

Hi Guys!

I am pretty new to own a Hobart N50. The Machine i currently use is a Bauknecht Allfix build in the 50´s. It´s a very good machine with a lot of additions.

But, just a few day ago a Café nearby changed location and cleaned out their cellar and put all the stuff outside. Long story short: I own a Hobart N50 with 4 Bowls, 4 Hooks and some other attachments. And a Heavy Duty KitchenAid with no further stuff. Both are running good. I want to keep the Hobart but there is something i don´t understand.

The main mount (complete section that´s running inside the sprocket) for the various hooks and stuff is dropped about 3mm. I dissambled the housing and placed washers on the vertical mainshaft between the housing and the horizontal running gear. No it is running fine, but i don´t think, this is the right way. May instead of metal washers material like polyamid should be used. Or is there something missing?

I did not find any remains of a spacer or kind of inside the housing. Also there is no other mechanism to keep the section up in place. When it is dropped, the horizental gear looses contact the gear on the horizontal mainshaft.

Does anyone have an idea, what´s missing or damaged?

Best wiches,

  Andy (Hamburg, Germany)

breadman_nz's picture
breadman_nz

It's a bit difficult to get a sense of it via words. PM me, and I can send you the service manual, which would help you work out exactly what goes where and what is missing or not put in correctly! :)

SandSquid's picture
SandSquid

I have both a N-50G and a KitchenAid (Hobart) K5-A and will take some more accurate measurements to ascertain exactly why agitators are not compatible but bowls are. 
I have deternimed the bowl lift pillars are in fact the same lenghts.
So it is either the bowl lift mechanish itself has a longer throw (range of travel) or the output shaft on the bottom of the planetry is positioned higher.
If I can actually find my Bosch laser level, I should be able to tell pretty easily by putting them side-by-side.