February 2, 2011 - 6:07pm
Hi, i m from Indonesia
Hi,
I ve been baking bread for the last 9 years using the commersial yeast. A year ago, a relative, he is a cheff
in US gave a visit and told me about baking bread with natural yeast. He teached me a little how to make the starter.
I find it very interesting, but still not confidence of using it. I hope by joining this forum, i can learn how to make european type bread that's cruncy & contain more fiber.
I think with the climate that always warm (26-30 C) and humid, making sourdough shuold be easier. So i want to learn from great teachers in this forum and starting
my journey of baking with natural yeast.
Share
bubble,
Welcome to The Fresh Loaf! I will be interested to hear about your experience baking with sourdough in a tropical climate.
sPh
and I remember we had some posts here on baking with sourdough in tropical climates.
You will find more information if you use the search function and just put in "tropical climate".
Happy baking,
Karin
thank you for your guidance Karin, what a great forum .
may you help me to find information how to make bread in indonesian bakeries ?
maybe video maybe an article but i need all proscess including timing. what king of machines in use ffor bakeries. etc etc
Hi Kenny,
I 'm sorry for not replying soon. I 'm not sure about Indonesian bread that you are interested in. Most Indonesian bakeries produce soft sweet bread with many kinds of filling inside. It contains 20 % of sugar and 20 % of fat, pretty close to brioche i would say. We do straight dough method, so the process is done in about 4 hours from mixing to baking. The machines mostly come from taiwan and china, planetary and spiral type.
If you are interested about baking sourdough in Indonesia, I have been experimenting making breads with levain over a year. I tried some of hamelman recipe and work very well. I have to use ice water to make my final dough 76F. I am still learning the best way to maintain my starter in room temperature of 78 F-83F. After trying to make Tartine bread today with a great result except the scoring, I 've been thinking about bread production without machines help as the book showed me. If you are interested to know my process of baking sourdough in Indonesia, I will try to post it in the forum.
This subject has already a long white beard but I just discover it now. This is one of the problems to jump in a train fully loaded. There are thousands of subjects already treated. I have been using several times Forums of all sorts to get an information and depending the time of the day and number of beers absorbed by some participants, one get often the answer: use the search button or Google it! :-)))
I have found to see a lot of courtesy and well informed people about the bread topics on this forum.
All this said, yes Indonesians included my wife love super sweet breads pink, purple, green or blue!:-) They even use bread as a support for ice cream!
I am a retired Belgian and live in a remote little town of Java island. Bread with European standard is totally unknown here so since several years I have been fishing information in books and Internet and very lately on this excellent and very complete Forum.
I do hope that since you have got good information and found the right ingredients to make your breads. It would be nice to exchange some infos. I have had to import a lot of my equipment but fortunately I recently found very high protein white flour in the country. My breads are now coming nice out of the oven. I have already participated a little on this forum.
Regards
Hi Jean,
Great to hear from you. It's a good idea to change information to achive the best result in baking artisan bread with what are available in this country. Currently, many options of flour available from many milling companies. Especially in Java. What city are you live in?
What bread are you baking?
I am doing to Respectus Panis dough. One has fermented 15 hours at 22C temperature and the second will ferment at same temperature during 48 hours.
Hi Jean,
Great to hear from you. It's a good idea to change information to achive the best result in baking artisan bread with what are available in this country. Currently, many options of flour available from many milling companies. Especially in Java. What city are you live in?
What bread are you baking?
I bubble! Thanks for your answer. I am from Belgium and I first worked here in East Java in cigar wrappers production during 15 years. I am now retired since 5 years and let my Indonesian wife work as a docent at the local university. We live in Jember. I have tried so many brands in these 20 years but only recently I have decided about my final choice. I tried many types of Prambanan brands but was not happy about the results. I have imported a 25kgs sac of French T65 flour but also I will reserve it for pizzas or waffles. I also tried with much better results the cakra kembar from Bogasari. Very few weeks ago I got in touch with a technician from Interflour group Indonesia and they gave me 3kg to try and I said This Is What I Need!!! I got very very good results. The protein is very high and I get super good elasticity in my dough. I have bought the 3 first courses of Teresa Greenway and This lady knows what she talks about. Her courses are so detailed that any idiot could bake bread. Of course I had to import lot of equipment in order to achieve good results. I bake twice a week the Boules which are very convenient just for two of us. I use the Lodge Iron cast system and it is perfect. I had to import adequate gloves because the very high heat. I also use only the sourdough from now on and I keep it the fridge with absolutely no problems. Titan Bakery in Jakarta have also some stuff and it is very easy to get them in Jember in 2 days. I bought some flour from Healthy Choice also in Jakarta. It take a lot of Googling but I find what I need. I use Sea Salt from Bali and the water is just Aqua from the Danone group. I am sure I am missing a lot of info but please ask me if I can help. Finally, I bake bread for pleasure and do not pretend to start a business at almost 71 years old!!!:-)) Have a good day and sorry to the Administrator it there were some abuse in this post.
Hi there Jean,
I'm living in Jakarta at the moment and occasionally bake bread. I haven't found a brand of flour yet that gives me a really good consistent outcome for just an average sandwich type loaf. I find that I end up adding a lot more water than the recipe calls for but I'm not sure if this is what I should be doing. I make the ciabatta recipe on this website and it seems to be perfect every time. But my sandwich loaves always come out quite dense. Perhaps that's my fault for not enough kneading though? What flour would you recommend that I can buy in the shops without having to buy kilos of it?
Hi Lady_C and Jean
This is an old post but I hope you guys can help answer my question. I currently have to reside in Bekasi, Indonesia, due to work. I'm currently try to bake just a regular sourdough but im not sure what flour would be best to use. I see that Jean use Cakra Kembar from Bogasari? Is that a good flour to use or are there any other brand that would work better?
I use the Cakra Kembar bread flour but the SD recipe I use uses 400g of this plus 50g of w/w flour and 50g rye flour (both Bob's red mill brand). I make my starter with the w/w flour too and only create the levain using the Cakra Kembar white flour. I find that the flour does produce a delicious loaf (although someone used to more artisan flours may not agree) and it's far better than any bread I can buy very locally.
Hi Lady_C
Thank you for the quick response :D I assume by "w/w flour" you mean the whole wheat flour of Bob's Red Mill? Also, what are the example of artisan flours here in Jakarta? I've been looking for flour brand around jakarta but all i could find is either bogasari or sriboga brand. Altho in the mean time, since you said it works good I'm planning to use the Cakra Kembar. Thank you in advance!
Yes I mean the whole wheat flour from Bob's Red Mill. I don't think you can get many artisan flours in Jakarta - I was referring to those that people may use in America/Europe etc. Bob's Red Mill do sell some other grains such as Kamut that I believe can be used in SD breads. Good luck with the SD! If I can help in any other way please do get in touch again. :-) I'm no expert but have made a few successful loaves.
Thank you very much, I appreciate the answer, you've help me greatly. I dont know where else I could ask around here since it seems the people in Jakarta is more accustomed to the local bread which is a very different style. Sadly, this is also my first time making SD as I've just picked up this new "hobby" recently, so im in a tight spot here. Thanks again, I hope you continue making a great bread :)
My pleasure! It's so fun to bake sourdough in Indonesia, the temperature is always warm so it's more manageable i think. In Jakarta you can find SD bread in modern bakeries, its getting popular, but baked it yourself is more satisfying. Thank you, you too many great success in baking SD in tropical country:)
Hi Bubble,
Thank you for the answer :) as im pretty new to baking, I can't say exactly about artisan flour but I think it's just basically a flour that have good quality to be used to make bread. from your answer, can I assume that both Cakra Kembar and Gerbang Mas are both giving you a good result? also i've just check the Eastern Flour Mill website, and it seems they dont have whole wheat flour product, do you use Bob's Red mill for the whole-wheat flour or do you also find any local product? Thanks in advace :)
Hi Dodolion,
If you mean artisan flour is organic flour, i found only the Bob red mill flour that is available in Indonesia and it cost a fortune :( For local milling company, i trust the Eastern Flour Mill. I found their representatives are very communicative with their milling process such as falling number, ash content etc and they don't contain borax. They have Gerbang mas flour around 13.5 % protein similar to cakra kembar and Kompas Biru around 12% protein. Both are great for sourdough bread, and i found that Gerbang Mas can hold more water that the Kompas biru. Btw, you can find organik local Sorgum flour on tokopedia and i think it's a good source of fiber to mix with the white flour:)
Cheers
Bubble
Hi Bubble,
Thank you for the answer :) as im pretty new to baking, I can't say exactly about artisan flour but I think it's just basically a flour that have good quality to be used to make bread. from your answer, can I assume that both Cakra Kembar and Gerbang Mas are both giving you a good result? also i've just check the Eastern Flour Mill website, and it seems they dont have whole wheat flour product, do you use Bob's Red mill for the whole-wheat flour or do you also find any local product? Thanks in advace :)
Hi Dondolion,
Yes, kembar mas and gerbang mas work very well for SD bread.
About whole wheat flour, it is a bit of confusion in Indonesia.
I understand when you say whole wheat flour you refer to the flour that the whole wheat berries was grinded from skin/ brand to endosperm and the germ. So the result is quite fine brown colour flour.
Unfortunately the market demand here is for white flour, so the miller here only make white flour and sell the skin / bran separately. Mostly is for animal feeding :)
So i make my own whole wheat flour by mixing the white flour and the bran, off course it not the same, and the bran is more coarse.
I think you can buy the bran in a bakery supply store. Sometimes they have wholemeal flour but actually they mix back the white flour and the bran with addition of salt and sugar.
I hope with the growing concern of healthy bread, the local miller is willing to make whole wheat flour soon:)
Hope that's help
Hi Bubble,
Interesting, cause i've actually tried to buy from a local bakery supply store a few days ago, I asked my friend to get it for me, and to my surprise what I get is a mix of white flour with wheat brans (which is still coarse and looks like an oat) but he said the shop clerk says it's a wholewheat. I wasn't sure if I could use it (both for starter and for main ingridients). Do you grind the bran again until fine, both for starter and main ingridients? Or I can actually use it like that?
Dondolion,
Yes, that's the flour blend i was talking about. They call it whole wheat flour or some whole meal flour. Sure you can use it just like that or if you want a finer fiber, you can toss them in the blender. It helps to some point. I would suggest you mix it with Gerbang mas, because it's not clear the quality of white flour they use in the mix. I prefer to buy only the bran and mix it with the white flour i know. You might want to taste the flour before making the bread, just to make sure if it's a netral flour or they add salt / sugar to it already. The starter? You mean they sell sourdough starter powder too? I make my own starter so i dont have experience with that. Quite interesting though :) Hope that's helpHi Bubble,
I was meant to ask you, do you also use the flour-wheat mix in your sourdough starter? If you do, do you make them finer using blender or you just use it that way? Sorry for asking a lot of question, and thank you for your answer :)
Hi dodolion,
I see what you mean. No, i keep my starter white, i use white flour to feed the starter :)
I am happy to help, not sure if i did help? Sorry , my indo english might sometimes confusing.
OMG! OMG! I feel terrible! So long time already I did not visit this Forum. Excellent forum though with lot of experts.
I hope you are still all in this country. I do!
I have many many great news about baking breads in my house. Are you still interested??
Jean Paul
i am on traveling when i come back to istanbul i will reply
i am now in istanbul .
first of all. how do you use the yeast dry or wet maybe sourdough? you have written that 20% sugar and 20% fat . arent they too much they are ? you can talk with me in msn messenger kenny10099 @ hotmail com
thank you very much
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/19367/first-sourdough-starter-mike039s-way
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/11767/baking-bread-tropics
Read through these posts-you may find them helpful. There is also a Handbook and Videos available on the links just below "The Fresh Loaf" on top of this page.
You have a steep learning curve ahead but it can be done. If you bake bread with commercial yeast, you already know a lot about bread-what it is,how it should behave and also about how to handle yeast in a tropical environment. The trick for you is to keep the dough cool enough so it doesn't over rise before the dough can support itself!
Sourdough, or natural levain, is very similar to yeast becasue IT IS yeast. So now you have to learn how to grow and maintain your yeast. There are a LOT of different ways to do it. This site uses an easy method that uses pineapple juice instead of water to encourage an acidic environment for the yeast to grow and discourage bacteria from growing that would spoil the yeast culture. My recommendation is to start with small amounts of flour-no more than 30 g all purpose/white flour. Work with small amounts until your culture is well established and then it is easy to build a larger volume. That way you will not be wasting a lot of flour. When you are building a starter, you will be discarding about half of it and then adding fresh flour and water on a regular basis. You have to think of it as if you are feeding an animal or small pet with fresh flour and water and cleaning its cage by discarding some of the old. It gets large and expensive if you are doing this with 300 g of flour each time!
So first start by reading. Then start building your starter. It will take at least 7-10 days before you can even think about baking with it. At first it will not be the best bread but it will get better with every bake. Your starter will work well as long as you take care of it.
Have delicious fun!
Hi Kenny, I tried to answer to your email, but keep failing.
In Indonesia most bakeries use instant dry yeast. Fresh yeast we can get from selected supplier but indonesian recipes always calls for instant yeast.
While learning sourdough bread, I 've been thinking too why Indonesian bread contain so many fat and sugar. It has become people's taste. Here is the common recipe for Indonesian sweet bread ( in gram)
1000 White bread flour
200 sugar
20 instant yeast
2-4 egg yolk
4 bread improver
200 fat (margarine/butter)
10 Salt
500 water/milk
Indonesian was colonised by Dutch for 350 years, but I don't think that recipe came from them, since I found similarity with bread in Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam.
My feeling is that back then , when asian people are suffering during war, meat, milk, eggs, sugar, fat were luxury that only rich people can effort.
So when the economic situation getting better, they put eggs, fat and sugar into bread to give nutrition to their body and also a symbol of prosperous.
Well, i am not sure but I remember that sweet bread was such a luxury during my childhood.
How about bread in Istanbul ?
Clazar, thank you for the link. I followed Hamelman book to make my starter, and did through away a lot of flour.
I should know that using a small amount of flour would work too. Sourdough bread is a way different to Indonesian sweet bread. It is a challenge for me to bring it out to the market.
That sounds similiar to the times, when Germans thought good wine shouldn't be "sour", and prefered sweet wines (probably sweetened with the help of anti-freeze) to dry ones. Fortunately that has changed! (Though some remnants of those days persist in American supermarket wine shelves - if there is any German wine it's most likely "Liebfraumilch" or (shudder) "Blue Nun").
Karin
anti freeze was a story that came out in the early 80's in Austria with white wines!:-))
I feel I have to respond to this... There were more stories, not only in Austria. The story in Austria was about a particular glycol which also can be used for anti-freeze. Not all types of antifreeze are toxic. One particular "Ice" wine (singular) was involved from a specific area many years ago. Also, you would be surprised how much antifreeze you probably eat currently.
http://www.thedailymeal.com/news/common-foods-and-drinks-hiding-antifreeze-compound/103014
http://www.dynalene.com/Propylene-Glycol-s/1840.htm
Hi mini oven,
you are absolutely right and you have an excellent memory! At the time I was working in Hungary between 1978 and 1992 and I was living on the lake Balaton area very close from the glycol scandal in Austria.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_diethylene_glycol_wine_scandal
Do not be fooled by the name "sour dough". Sourdough is just yeast and the starter tastes sour so the yeast can grow. When you use it in a sweet dough, it works very well. My regular sandwich bread also tastes good with no sourness to it. Sourdough starter is just yeast. It can be developed (through feeding intervals and temperature) so the bread you make is sour tasting or it can be used to make a neutral or even sweet tasting bread. Sourdough is liquid form of homegrown yeast and is what was used to make bread for thousands of years. Commercial yeast was gladly embraced because it provided a consistent behaviour,fast dough development and was easily stored. It also did not require maintenance.
So try a loaf of Indonesion Bread made with sourdough and see how you like it. I cannot comment on how to bring it to market but it sounds like you have that expertise. It may just be something you enjoy for your family.
Akhirnya dpt temen jg dr indonesia hehe
nice to know you bubble
happy baking !
I wonder if there's a course or meeting forum for learning sourdough bread in Jakarta.
I've been self learning for making sourdough bread for 2 years now but never get satisfied result.
It would be good if there was somewhere to learn how to make sourdough. I've never tried to make my own starter but it's something I'm keen to do as I love sourdough bread! How does your starter keep in Jakarta? I was worried that it's too hot and humid here but I'll give it a go soon.
:)
still learning...
My starter keeps fine. As long as you have a fridge it is ok. Let me know if you need any help.
I realize this is an older post, but I too live in Jakarta and I manage to make descent sourdough breads. If anyone out there is in need of tips for baking in Indonesia, please let me know.
This looks like an old dried out sourdough resurrecting !
I still live in east java. I would like to know ho far you are with your breads altgough they are decent bakeries in Jakarta and Surabaya and Bali.
Jean Paul
Hi there,
I'm getting on pretty well with my SD breads since I took the leap. I love to make seeded SD in particular and have found that a blend of white, whole wheat, einkorn and semolina gives a very nice soft bread indeed. I haven't baked any in the last month or so due to being away but am looking forward to resurrecting my starter soon! I'm sure there are good breads available in Jakarta but I so enjoy the process of making bread that I haven't tried any!
The thing I find most difficult is keeping a starter that isn't used really regularly. In the fridge it tends to develop a grey/black layer on it (not mold from what I can see). I tend to bake every other week or so and don't want to maintain my starter between bakes so leave it in the fridge. With a drier starter this is ok but anything longer than that is pushing it.
I recently tried baguettes but they weren't great - just baguette shaped bread really. I'm not sure if I'll try them again. I do want to try SD bagels but find that my non SD bagels are great so not sure if the effort/time would be worth it?
Many things happened since those years. I red many books in at least 4 languages. I went to several other forums. I saw hundreds of hours on Youtube about bread baking beside photography which is my first main hobby. I tried numerous flours and improvers from several companies here in Indonesia.
Now I use only Sriboga flours. Since about two months. Last week in Jakarta, I met a charming gentleman form Sriboga Customer Center and we talked about an hour about bread making style Belgian/French. Not pink, green purple blue breads like mush mallows !!:-)))
I will try to post pictures here. So far I use Hime flour from Sriboga for breads. For pizzas I follow ONLY Gennaro Contaldo from Youtube pizza with Double Zero from Sriboga. For Belgian Waffles I use Pitah Merah from Sriboga.
Just by chance I have started early today new sourdough starters experiments(4).
So far I use dry yeast for simplicity.
Sriboga recommended me to use Baker Bonus bread improver with excellent results. I buy it in Jakarta on line. Titan Bakery.
If any questions feel free to ask.
I bought recently the KetchenAid Heavy Duty type with extra hook! My oven is a pro one from Fomac where I have a thick bottom pizza stone and temperatures up and down can reach 400C for pizzas!
Hi Jean!
Thanks for the info on flour! I didnt know that Sriboga have 00 flour ? that’s wonderful and I will look for it and use one on my next pasta batch!
About your oven, I am looking into getting a pro oven (probably a Getra?) I am wondering, should you have the oven, do you still need to use dutch oven for sourdough bread/artisan?
nice to know you!
greets,
K.
Since I use this Fomac oven I do not use anymore dutch oven equipment. I can reach temperatures of 400C
Hi Jean!
can you share one of your bread recipe that use bread baker bonus? I always wonder how that turns out.
greets,
k
yes sure I can share. can you reach me on my facebook or email?
Hi Jean!
i will soon connect with you on facebook! Thanks!
K
Apparently no visit to my FB!:-))
540gr Beruang Biru or about 10-11% proteins for other brand
340gr water
2gr dry yeast
3gr Diastatic Malt powder
9gr sea salt
10gr Baker bonus
I told my husband about these flours and he bought me several bags from tokopedia! I'm excited to hear about the 00 flour and must try that pizza recipe you spoke of.
Lucky you buying a heavy duty KA! Your oven also sounds fantastic. Unfortunately I'm making do with a fairly cheap gas oven. I've learnt how to get loaves that are pretty good although the option of steam would be nice!
Good morning,
I have now joined the new system called Respectus Panis. In few words, sourdough(yes again), very little mixing and only speed 1, very little salt and very long fermentation at around 20-22C. Around 12 hours. Very nice results!
Update
I have abandoned this method since it does not help me for the kind of bread I like to eat!
I have been reading on TFL and just found the thread yesterday, very much excited about having people living in SE Asia sharing about their sourdough journey here!
I’d love to hear the tips especially on growing the starter. Last year I tried to grow one but gave up when it didn’t seem to work out. I usually bake bread using commercial dry active yeast.
I started to grow one again just recently, now I am on day 2 (after reading books and threads I decided just to follow gaaarp method on growing starters here)
Typical tropical SD starter problem? On day one the mixture smells and it looks gassy. I understand this is because of the bacteria? But all of the threads I read just say go on and continue with the process. So let’s see..
It’s 28-29C on average lately with 80%humidity. Should I create a controlled environment that is colder? Like what Mini Oven suggested with cold water bottle?
anyway..
Any tips?
I gave up the sourdough. I have 3 of them in the fridge but it complicates my life since it is not my main hobby to bake bread. If I do it it's because there are no decent breads around me. I got my oven, my flour, yeast and few other things and I am happy with my results and stick to my recipe.
I don't know how to upload photos so you can see many stuff on my FB Jean Paul Reuland
You'll have success if you keep going. I feed my starter with a mix of whole wheat flour and 10% rye. Both flours are Bobs Red Mill. It did take a couple of weeks for my starter to start smelling like it was heading the in the right direction. Our house is a/c'd most of the time so temp control hasn't been an issue for me despite the heat/humidity outside.
Sorry my question but why are you spending money on Bobs stuff?? You probably don't know that Sriboga is importing their flours from the USA, Europe and Australia? I use Pitah Merah with Sriboga rye flour as starter and it does very well. No needs to worry about refreshing all the time.
I started using the BRM as it was easily available when I couldn’t find other whole wheats. I’ll definitely try the Sriboga Pitah Merah (which I assume is whole wheat?) though. I didn’t realise they imported the flours but that’s interesting to know. I don’t know much about wheat or grains but it’d be interesting to learn more.
I wonder if anyone mills their own grain here? I’ve seen different grains to buy but I wonder about their quality and shelf life.
Sp* Pita merah
I have made lots of researches on the Internet to try to understand all the flours languages!:-)
I compare American/French German Italian depending the recipes you follow from Internet
USA all purpose=French T55=German T550=Italian 00
USA pastry flour=French T45=German T405=Italian 00
USA bread flour=French T80=German T812=Italian Type1
USA whole wheat=French T150=German T1700=Italian 'Wheat
US pastry flour =UK soft flour=German 405=French T45=Italian 00 all contain about 9% proteins
US all purpose flour=UK plain flour=German 550=French T55 = Italian 0 all contain about 11% proteins
US high gluten flour=UK strong or hard=German 812= French T80= Italian 1 all contain about 14% proteins
US first clear flour=UK very strong or hard=German 1050=French T110=Italian 2 all contain about 15% proteins
US white whole wheat=UK wholemeal=German 1600= French T150 = Italian Farina integrale di grano tenero all about 13% proteins
US cake &pastry is like french T45
US all purpose and bread is like French T55
US high gluten is like French T65
US light whole wheat is like French T80
US whole wheat is like French T110
US dark whole wheat is like French T150
The character of the protein (gluten) is also quite different in a French flour,not nearly as elastic as the kind you find in American flour. Though French Type 55 flours routinely list a protein content of around 11.5%, they perform more like a medium-protein American flour, around 9,5%. That puts them on par, as mentionned before with American all purpose flours. RBM. Plenty of bakers try to replicate baguettes or other French breads with high-gluten flours (or mixtures of low and high gluten flours) but the experts are mostly in agrement that too much American gluten is bad for a good French bread! Wondering which protein % is right for your pizza flour? Here are some guidelines.Neapolitan style pizza 9,5 to 11% proteinsChacago deep dish 11 to 12,5%General purpose(bread flour) 11,5 to 12,75%New York style piza 13,5% and up Flours from Sriboga Indonesia( I do not work for them neither I receive my flours!!!) Pitah Merah T45 8-9% proteinsNinja T45 9% proteinsBeruang Biru T55 10-11% proteinsTali Emas/Double 00/Hime T55 12-13% proteins I use Beruang Biru for my daily breads sometimes with Sriboga whole wheat flour mixedFor pizzas I efer to the table above but Ninja and double 00 are good choices I hope this helps a little lost bakers in Indonesia!:=))Bingo! 2 pages are pdf copy paste and do not show here. Next time! The old man is tired!!!
Ok I filled the texts just now.
Hope you enjoy and it helps you to choose the right flour in Indonesia for the recipe you try to follow.
JP
I saw that you'd replied but wanted to wait to reply until I'd had time to digest what you'd written!
This is very helpful actually as flour and grain seems to have so many possibilities depending upon the country! The last part about the pizza dough is interesting too.
I'm still unsure if the Pita Merah flour from Sriboga is whole wheat though. It looks like an ordinary white flour?
Pita Merah is definitively NOT a whole wheat flour. It is a very low protein white flour most convenient for soft spongy cakes etc.
Ahhh ok - I think my confusion was when you asked why I was using BRM flour and that you use Pita Merah with your rye to good effect. I then assumed you meant that pita Merah was wholewheat that I could use instead of BRM. Thanks for clearing that up. ?
The Internet is a wonderful thing most of the time but it does make misunderstandings a little easier to happen! ?
Reason why forum are good to start a subject but I prefer to continue through WA or Facebook:-)
Just this morning I am trying 3 breads on poolish with identical same technique but 3 flours I can purchase on the market here.
I have now an active starter (after fearing that it was false start but apparently it’s not lol). I’m planning to bake soon with it while trying to strengthen it the next two weeks before it goes to fridge storage.
if you don’t mind me asking, what level of hydration do you use? I found the 100% needed to be refreshed more and now trying to cut back on the hydration level. And what kind of oven do you use at home? Do you always use dutch oven to bake your bread or do you have professional oven?
anyway, thanks for replying!
K.
So I feed my starter at about a ratio of 1:2:2 or perhaps 1:3:3 (s:f:w). So these would be 100% hydration but I find a smaller amount of starter to flour/water does better. I’ve briefly tried other levels of hydration but not with much consistency and certainly not really paying enough attention to the effect.
I have a cheapish gas oven and cook in a large ceramic soufflé dish. I put a cake tin in the bottom to heat up and then fill this with water before the bread goes in. I’ve tried in my cast Iron but the bottom burns when I do this. I’ve also tried baking on a pizza stone but again, too dark on the bottom. The ceramic dish gives a perfect colour.
Oh well, the ceramic dish is a good solution. I have a dutch oven but didn’t fit in my oven ? so I was kind of looking for a way to bake the bread until I get a newer oven.
anyway, I just did the 1:3:3 as well starting of yesterday but then decided to lower the hydration to make up the warm temperature. Finger cross.Thanks for the reply! Do you only use the starter for your personal baking at home?
Anyway, about importing wheat, Indonesia is not exactly a big producer (there are only small/limited amount of wheat farmer here). It’s not considered as profitable by the farmers from what I’ve read. And we are the 2nd highest importer of wheat in the world ~ that’s a bit surprising to me personally. But the imported grains are available if you are keen to mill your own. Although probably with the new import tax you can also try to pool order (for yourself and friends who share the interest) from brands/mills/farmers that you trust to make sure the quality.
In Java, you can contact farmers in Tosari (by Bromo Mt.) via the koperasi to buy fresh wheat. I know they cater to artisan bakery in Bali so it is in fact possible to have them sell you one ??
K.
It's been a busy week! Hmmm that's a pity about your DO! Hopefully you'll find a solution in the meantime. A stainless steel pot could work? How did the lower hydration work out? I have tried a drier starter but tend to go 100% hydration for ease.
Yes I only use my SD for baking at home. I'm a teacher when I'm not baking :-)
Wow! 2nd highest importer of wheat in the world! My OH's friend has started buying grains to brew for his beer so perhaps this is an option - I think he's been wanting to grind grains too. That will wait for a while though I think. Thanks for the link about Tosari - I'll check it out. :-)
I live in Indonesia, have baked sourdough for over 2 years and have had consistent results for about a year.
Feel free to ask if if there is anything you want to ask about.
Hi there!
One of the questions that I have, do you use liquid or firm starter? I was just wondering about this after I read a text suggesting beginner to maintain just one starter and convert it during the building of the levain. And out of curiosity, what kind of flour that you use/have used?
K.
Hi There.
I like to keep things easy and simple. One starter. 100 grams. 100% hydration. 100% Rye.
Multiple starters are way to much work and unnecessary.
The advantages are many:
1. Rye starters are hard to kill. Mine lives in the fridge. I feed it every two weeks (whenever I bake). I once left it unfed for a month and it survived. You can forget about it and it will still work when you need it.
2. 100% Hydration makes the math less complicated when you calculate hydration ratios for your levain and final dough. Also, in a hot climate like Indonesia, a thick 100% hydration is good because the yeast “swim” more slowly in it and therefore eats it more slowly than a loose starter. In a hot climate, too fast fermentation is a problem so this helps a bit.
3. Whenever I bake I use most of the starter (around 90g for 3 loaves) for the levain. A little bit of starter (around 10g) is left in a the jar, and to that I add 45 rye and 45g water. I let it sit in the kitchen for a few hours, until a few bubbles appear, and then it goes into the fridge for the next time I bake.
4. Making a levain every time is advantageous because you can convert your starter into any lavain you like. Loose levain, firm levain, poolish, biga, dark flour, white flour. Any recipe you like.
5. I use rye four that I buy I Sweden when I go home for summer. But any whole grain flour is good. In my experience rye is harder to kill than wholewheat, and whole-wheat is harder to kill than white flour. When I run out of rye, I normally order some inexpensive rye from tokopedia. It’s not as good as the Swedish but it is still good. It works. I don’t use Bob’s because i find it expensive, but the quality is good if you don’t mind the price.
6. When I created my starter I fed it daily for a 8-10 day “initial growing stage”. I kept it in my bedroom where I keep the AC on during the night. So it was at around 20 degrees during night and 28 degrees at day when I’m at work, because I can’t keep the AC on all day. That worked fine, even though some people claim “you must keep it at a stable temperature”. After 10 days it moved into the fridge.
7. The following only applies during the “initial growing stage”: I only fed it once per day (keeping it simple). If you find that your starter has fermented too much when it’s time to feed it (ie if it is “sunken” or convex) simply increase the feeding ratio. If it has not felt fermented enough (not enough bubbles), reduce the feeding ratio. I started with 1:1:1, then increased to 1:2:2, and then had to increase again to 1:2.5:2.5. It will off course be different in every house, but your starter WILL TELL YOU what it wants. Just listen to it, and it will be easy.
8. If you live near Jakarta I can give you some of my starter if you want.
Where are you based? I'm in Tangerang - Bintaro to be precise.
It'd be fun if some of us could arrange a meet up and a swap of the SD loaves we bake, depending on how many are based around Jakarta.
I really ought to start bringing flour back from the UK but my suitcase tends to be taken up by really good dark chocolate and other goodies for my OH. I think next year though I'll try and bring back a couple of bags. I may try the cheaper rye on Tokopedia in place of the Bob's - I just hadn't thought to look! (although the price doesn't bother me too much as I only use 10% in my starter anyway). It's the whole wheat I really need to find a cheaper version of. Bob's was just convenient and an option I knew I could trust.
SoulDreamer is right.
I have "started as many others"with a mixture of regular flour and rye flour. 50/50% and 100% of water.
Once it is well established, you can continue with 100% of regular white flour.
Rye flour helps at the beginning to boost the fermentation. Fresh pineapple juice or fresh apple juice or fresh dates juice and so on are all good boosters. Don't use pasteurized products!