The Fresh Loaf

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Dough rise problem with whole wheat flour AGAIN

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mluciano's picture
mluciano

Dough rise problem with whole wheat flour AGAIN

Hi, it's me again, with my problem again. Well., not everything is bad news, the texture of the bread has improved a lot... Right now, the bread is edible. That's something. The thing is that my dough didn't rise the way it should. I don't think that the temp is a problem because I live in Puerto Rico and we've had temperatures this week between 95 and 102 F. I don't know if the problem is the flours I'm using (I don't have a lot of flours to chose from in the island)... So, I don't have a clue right know of what's going on...

Here's the recipe, again...

  • 3/4 cup Gold Medall all purpose flour
  • 1 3/4 cup Pillsbury Best Whole wheat flour
  • 1 tbsp Arrowhead Mills Vital Wheat gluten
  • 1/2 cup rolled oats
  • 6 oz (3/4 cup) water
  • 2 oz (1/4 cup) milk
  • 1/4 cup (4 tbsp) honey
  • 1 1/2 tbsp canola oil
  • 1 tsp + 1/8 tsp salt
  • 2/3 cup soaked raisins
  • 1 3/4 tbsp active dry yeast
  • I made the sponge with: the water and milk at 100F, 1 tbsp of honey and all the yeast. I let that rest for 2 hours and then I followed the rest of the instructions (mix everything, knead time: 15 mins, first rise: 1 hour, the shape into a loaf, then second rise...)

    The second rise was supposed to be fo 90 minutes, but the dough is been in my counter (covered, of course) for 150 minutes and it still hasn't rise the way it should. What am I doing wrong this time? I know I can b a great baker... I just seem to have the same problem time after time...

    Thanks for the help anyone can give me...AGAIN...

    browndog's picture
    browndog

    Off the top of my head:

    toss in another tablespoon or 2 of gluten, and drop your water/milk temp back some, like to 90 or even a little less to compensate for your hot weather. How are the sponge and first rise responding-- perky and fast or something else? Is the dough getting puffy and light at least once? You know you might try mixing up a dough with a much higher white flour proportion just as a control to see how it acts, if you get a good rise and a good bake then you can assume it's not your flour, yeast, or handling.

    At least you have the right attitude, and sooner or later you'll have the bread to go with it, I'm sure.

    mluciano's picture
    mluciano

    The sponge and the first rise are responding well. That's why I'm a little clueless, but the bread is still rising, so I don't exactly know how it will turn out, but, next time I'll put a little more gluten... I'll let you know...

    DaviMack's picture
    DaviMack

    It's probably not the gluten, I'd guess.  In your previous post, you said that the dough was a bit dry, and that's probably where I'd say to start off.  Flour varies in the amount of moisture present in it, so your recipe may be just fine and need more flour one day, and less the next.  It all depends upon how old the flour is, when it was harvested, what your local humidity is, etc.

    Your temperature at 110°F would be just fine, as that is what you're really looking for when "proofing" the yeast - that's the temperature that yeast is going to give you plenty of bubbles with, so that you know you've got a good thing going.  You don't start to kill off the yeast until 115°F, so you're really safe with whatever temperature.

    Once you have the flour under control, I'd say to skip the oil.  Salt and Oil both act to slow down yeast growth and metabolism, so if you're adding both, you may be overdoing one or the other.  Yes, you scaled down the recipe quite properly, I'm sure, but ... well, sometimes scaling down isn't just a matter of dividing.  Some things don't scale that way, unfortunately, which is why commercial bakers weigh everything out - to try to get some of that variance out of the whole issue of scaling.  It still doesn't work to scale, sometimes, so if all else fails, try the original recipe and simply give away the extra: you've already spent the money on the ingredients, and have more than doubled your labor.

    bwraith's picture
    bwraith

    Hi Mluciano,

    Sorry if the following is no help, but here are some suggestions:

    1) Use 1 tsp yeast

    2) Use 8.5 to 9 ounces water, rather than 6 oz.

    3) Use 3/4 to 1 tsp salt.

    4) 1 tsp vital wheat gluten instead of 1 tablespoon.

    5) 2 tbsp honey instead of 4.

    6) Use 2 teaspoons oil instead of 1.5 tablespoons.

    7) Take 7 oz of the water and soak the whole wheat flour in it for 1 hour. Mix the rest of the cool water and milk with enough of the AP flour and the yeast and 1 tbsp honey to get a thin pancake batter, then let it foam up, maybe 1/2 to 1.5 hours, depending on temperatures. Refrigerate the sponge after that, if you're not ready to make the dough.

    8) After mixing all the ingredients into a final dough, knead for 10 minutes. Do a "stretch and fold" on the dough when it has risen by 25 to 50% during the first rise. Make the the loaves as soon as the dough has doubled. Refrigerate the loaves for 1/2 hour. Take them out and let it go from there as usual.

    Good luck with it. Sorry if these suggestions don't work. If they do work, you could try to add back the other ingredients one by one to see if one of them is causing a problem.

    Bill

    Mini Oven's picture
    Mini Oven

    First of all a question.  Is that 1 3/4 Tablespoons of yeast?  If so, that is way too much, The yeasty beasty babies are eating up the food so the next generation have a tough time.  If it is teaspoons, then it's about right.  I might be wondering if your yeast is near dead though.  Take a normal drinking glass and put about 1/4 cup of water in it, then stir in a teaspoon of sugar and a tablespoon of flour and a teaspoon of yeast, mix well.  Now wait for new bubbles or a froth to form on the surface.  How does it look after 30 minutes?  One hour?  

    I'm asking because it happens quite often in warm climates that somehow the yeast is overexposed to heat during transport, long before you ever buy it.  Therefore when you've got it keep it cool.   It has happened to me often enough.  If this is the only source of yeast, then we could make a commercial yeast starter, building up the yeast to use for baking or you might want to try making a sourdough starter.  Let me know how the yeast test comes out.   -- Mini Oven

    browndog's picture
    browndog

    I agree with Mini you don't need all that yeast if that's the correct figure. I can't imagine the honey or tiny amount of oil are interfering to a large extent. Those aren't unreasonable amounts in my experience with sandwich loaves, (though I almost always cut back on stated proportions of fat and sugar, I admit.) I suggest the added gluten because it's such a heavy package and you aren't using strong flour but the rub is probably somewhere else as is being suggested by everyone. If you really are using 1 and 3/4 tbsp yeast, as Mini says, it seems likely after your good sponge and first rise the yeast is tired out with nothing left for the shaped loaves, definitely knock that back if nothing else.

    BROTKUNST's picture
    BROTKUNST

    If the formula would call for 1 3/4 Tsp the percentage for the yeast would fall somewhat into the 2% range (about 5.25 g). There is, IMHO, a typo in the original  formula or in mluciano's initial post.

    BROTKUNST

    browndog's picture
    browndog

    with your recipe yesterday, I was so curious about it. I halved your recipe then made it exactly to your proportions and ingredients except for the yeast. To my halved amounts I added one half of a teaspoon (1/2 tsp) of active dry. I did an hour and a half sponge (warm day here though nothing like 100), which I mixed up with water about 90 degrees, just because that's what I'm used to. Kneaded 7 minutes and got annoyed with the sticky dough, so I let it sit for 10 minutes then kneaded it another 5 or 7 minutes more and it turned lovely. Moist, lively, not at all dry and in my opinion not in need of more water. It certainly did not need any more gluten flour. I bulk fermented for an hour and a half, ignored the folding business because I read about it late but the dough was cruising and had plenty of strength anyway. Shaped, panned, and had to leave unfortunately so I refrigerated it which was not in my plan, but even so it proofed very well in another hour and a half. I'm convinced at warm room temp it would have been ready in 45 minutes or so. Placed in a cold oven, set temp at 375 and baked for 50 minutes, the last 10 of which were out of the Pyrex pan and on the oven rack to firm up the crust. Mluciano, it's a wonderful little loaf, tender, not at all dry, just sweet enough. It smelled heavenly towards the end of the bake. Your recipe seems just fine as is, so if you work out any kinks (like forgetting the salt, huh?:D) and making sure your yeast is correct, you should be good to go, girl.


     

     

    bwraith's picture
    bwraith

    Browndog,

    The loaf looks nice, but then you have that whole grain experience, so I shouldn't be surprised.

    I hope the reduction in yeast and moderation of temperatures will work for mluciano. Certainly the yeast and temperatures being too much is the main suggestion of this thread. 

    Some of my suggestions above were meant to solve the yeast problem too, but other possible problems motivated the other suggestions. Some flours need more water than others, and depending on how much you knead, and with the extra vital wheat gluten, you could potentially get an overly stiff dough. That could be solved by adding some water, reducing the wheat gluten, a slight reduction in salt, or kneading a little less in the beginning and folding once or twice instead, which is what motivated some of those other suggestions.

    The suggestion for reducing the oil in particular and maybe the honey was based on the idea that sometimes an ingredient, and this could be particular to the brand of oil or honey available, has something in it that interferes with the yeast or the gluten formation. It's not very likely, but it could be an unexpected source of problems. If reducing those ingredients makes a big difference, maybe a different type of oil or a different brand would work.

    Mluciano, I'll be curious to hear how your next one goes and what it was that ended up solving your problem.

    Bill

    browndog's picture
    browndog

    God help me, Bill, I wouldn't discount your opinion for the world, you do know that, right? I'm always trying to bare-bones it, but I don't mean to disparage yours or anybody's suggestions. My own suggestion to add more gluten was a poor one, that's certain. I wanted to see what this dough felt like, it just didn't seem inherently flawed. As usual I'm reading what you have to say, learning something and saying to myself, "Oh. Never thought of that..." Anyway, I hope Mluciano shows up soon with a success story to tie a bow around us all.

    bwraith's picture
    bwraith

    Browndog,

    I thought your comment was right on point and was not at all feeling discounted. I was very impressed that you went the extra mile to test out the recipe. The yeast does seem like the most obvious thing that could be wrong with it - too much of a good thing, a lot of yeast at high temperatures. I just wanted to explain the reasons for a couple of those other suggestions I tossed out earlier, in case anything rings a bell for mluciano.

    Bill