The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Advice on using a pate fermente/old dough

  • Pin It
jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Advice on using a pate fermente/old dough

Can any of the experts on TFL  be kind enough to give me some advice on using the pate fermente/old dough method in a recipe please?  Assuming I have a pc of 50 grm "old dough" to be used in a regular/normal recipe (not using an old dough) can I just add this 50grm (as if making a slightly larger loaf than what the receipe calls for)  without making any adjustments to the ingredients in the recipe? I would like to add that I have done a search on the TFL before posting this topic but none helped to address my query.  I am also aware that the old dough used should be approximately 20 - 30% of the total flour used in the recipe, but what I'm unsure of is whether I need to adjust the qty in the ingredients if I was to add this extra old dough to a recipe that does not call for a pate fermente.  If an adjustment is required, should it be just on the weight of the flour alone  or should I adjust everything else, ie. water, yeast etc.  Many thanks.  Judy

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

compare to the weight of the rest of the dough you intend to make?  If you plan to make 500g of dough, the pate fermentee would equate to 9% of the finished dough and that would be enough to make me want to account for the pate fermentee's contribution of both flour and water.  If you intend to make 1000g of dough, the pate fermentee would be under 5% of the finished quantity and I would probably not worry about it.


You also want to include texture (which is directly influenced by hydration) in your considerations.  If the pate fermentee is from a batch of bagels and you want to add it to ciabatta dough, getting everything mixed evenly is going to be a challenge.  In that case, you may want to dissolve the pate fermentee in the formula's water before proceeding.  Or you could use the double hydration technique.


My thought would be that a small quantity of pate fermentee, let's say less than 5% of dough weight as opposed to flour weight, will serve to enhance flavor but will have minimal effect on other characteristics of the finished dough.  Go past that point and you will want/need to consider what the pate fermentee is bringing to the party; particularly flour, water and salt.


The usual market rates for free advice apply.  ;-)


Paul

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

re pate fermente.  The recipes that I have come from a cook book that comes with the Kenwood Chef stand mixer as a give-away  and which specifically mention the use of old dough,  The recipes vary  from 250 - 280 grm of b/f and 50 - 75 grms of old dough.  This is fine if I was to follow the recipes in the book.  I'm quite new to bread making and normally work with only a small amt of flour (approx 350 -500grms each time in case my breads are a flop) I understand the qty of old dough should stay within 20-30% of main dough.  May pate fermente is made from 125 gr b/f, 1.5 gr instant yeast, 1 grm salt  and a little under 80 ml of water.  This gave me just under 200 grm of dough after bulk fermentation and degassing. with a yield of 1 x 75/73/50 grm dough balls which I'm keeping in the freezer for my next bake.  I'm only experimenting with this method at this stage and just wondered if I could adapt to the old dough method without making any adjustments to the recipes.  I can only make simple yeasted breads, nothing fancy like bagels or artisan breads using rye or sourdugh starters etc.  Judy

jcking's picture
jcking

If you're saving a piece of old dough for the new dough the hydration (water percentage) is what makes a difference. If the new dough has the same ingredients and make up as the old dough no adjustments are needed. If the old dough was say a medium level of hydration ( regular sandwich loaf ) and the new was a wetter bread such as a Ciabatta an adjustment would be needed.


Freezing the old dough could damage the yeast, If it will be used within 3 days the fridge would be okay. If the dough must be frozen add a little extra yeast when mixxing the new batch.


Jim

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I only bake during the weekends so the "old" dough balls are wrapped in lightly greased foil and kept in ziplock bag.  I've been doing a lot of reading from my source of bread books I'm told that these can be kept in the fridge/freezer for up to 3-4 days / 3 months respectively.  It's warm and humid where I come from so it only takes a couple of hours for the frozen dough to be brought to room temp before use.  I'ld like to give this method a try and see if it makes any difference to my yeasted bread.  I've worked with the water roux method and the bread stays soft even after a couple of days   Judy

jcking's picture
jcking

Judy,


Another thing you may want to consider is when to mix the old with the new. Some say add it with the initial mix, others say add when kneading. I go with the add when kneading (unless it's a poolish or a very wet levain) because the old dough is already developed.


Jim


 

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I'll certainly bear this in mind when I make my next bread and make sure to throw in the old dough after I have added in the water and before adding any butter (if called for).


Judy

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

This is the first time I'm experimenting with a piece of old dough.  It's only a small loaf using 220g bf and 30g rye and 10 grms of black sesame (did not have flax seeds which was what the original recipe calls for) and I decided to add a bit of wheat bran and rolled oats to the top to make the loaf less boring.  The scoring was not prominent though and needs more work.  It was easy to work with and as Paul suggested, I added in the 75 grm piece of  old dough when I started to knead the dough into a ball.  Also autolyzed flour for 30 mins.  Could have been due to the bulk fermentation  @ 1.5 hrs followed by a  s/f  and 2nd proof for 30 - 40 mins (or should be it termed as resting?) then another degas and formed into a log for final 45 mins proof.      The temp used was only 200C  but I did give it a few occasional spritzes of water and a pan of boiling water underneath, I placed it on the lower rack under the baking sheet so the steam was somewhat blocked,  I should move it more to the side next time so the steam can circulate. While the shaping is poor and the crust was not is crispy as I would have liked it to be, the crumb is nice and soft compared to my earlier breads using the straight yeast method using bulk fermentation, shape , 2nd proof in breadpan or baking sheet and straight into the oven. 

All in all, I'm quite pleased with the outcome and once again thank Paul and TFL for all the help and advice I have been getting in the past.  I'll make this again using a higher temp and dutch oven to see if there's any improvement.

Judy

jcking's picture
jcking

Judy

You'll get it. As far as oven temp I find it helps to set the oven 50F or 10C higher to compensate for the oven door opening and the spritzing. Then drop the temp to the recommended one.

Keep up the good work!

Jim

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

I'll have to keep working on my shaping skills.   I have watched the videos on TFL so many times but when it comes to the actual work, I'm all thumbs.  Hopefully I can post a stunner one of these days.

jcking's picture
jcking

I can't say where; there is a video using a fluffy kitchen towel to practice shaping. Even without the video I think you get the idea.

Jim

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Oh yes, I recall seeing that, it was by Mike Avery of Backhome Bakery?  I enjoy watching his videos, he makes things seem so easy and I love his narrations, he has a really nice voice.  I've actually thought of ordering his video but quite costly to be sent to HK.   I should go a check out this video again to refresh my memory.  Judy

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

Mike Avery (of Sourdough Home) no.  Although I'm sure that Mark Sinclair, owner of The Back Home Bakery, will get a good chuckle out of it.  Mark was the one who put out the video using a towel to demonstrate the steps.

Paul

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

and apologies all round to both Mark and Mike.  After I responded, I went on to check out the towel rolling video again and realised I had made a mistake with the names because they were quite similar .  My memory is failing me as I get older... :)