The Fresh Loaf

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My Daily Bread-Rye

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ehanner's picture
ehanner

My Daily Bread-Rye

 

 

I used a recipe off the Internet for Jewish Rye that sounded like it would work. About 640g of KA High Gluten was used in place of first clear and 270g of Rye along with 200g of my AP/Rye mix starter was used. The dough called for 2 T of kosher salt which I thought a little heavy but went with the recipe the first time :>) I liked the way it handled and rose. I let it ferment after mixing for 2 hours and divided into 3, 1.3 Lb loaves which final proofed for an additional 45 minutes. Recipe called for 375F for 10 minutes of steam and another 30 of dry heat. I got to 180F after only 22 minutes of dry baking.

The loaves looked great to me. I'm not a Rye expert but they were very soft and chewy and flavorful, if just a hint of salt. My wife said she didn't taste the salt so who knows? The made up sour starter which I didn't use calls for potato water to be used. I liked the idea of using the starchy water which I have used in Memo's Brown Bread and loved the texture of the brown bread. So, I made up some potato water for this experiment.

Next trial will rely less on yeast and more on my SFO starter I love so much and I'll have a new 50 bag of clear I have to pick up for $9.00 at a wholesaler. I'll back off the salt to my usual 2% unless BROTKUNST or someone else who knows Rye advises otherwise.

Eric

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Got the nice rise and shape you were looking for!  Congradulations!  You will find the flavor improves as it ages too!  The end of my last loaf was so tasty but very dried out... so it got dunked and drowned in egg and milk and made into french toast.  

In mentioning the salt and then the potato water, I remembered that potato in bread does demand just a bit more salt (unless the peeled potato was boiled in salted water, mine also has a pinch of caraway as well).  So it's still up to you and your taste buds.  If you normally eat with salted butter, then it might be better to reduce the salt just a tad. 

If you raise your next loaf with sourdough only, may I suggest autolyse, mixing SD with rye flour and water and let it sit an hour before mixing in rest of ingredients.  With a 30 min bulk rise.

I was just reading yesterday in Hamelman's, "Bread," about surface temperatures, "Maillard" reaction, carmelization and converting everything into °c.  When I'm back in China, I'm gonna borrow my husband's handy dandy surface reading gizmo and see what my crust is doing temperature wise just outta curiosity.  --Mini Oven

xma's picture
xma

Hi Eric,

I'm no rye expert but I like rye bread and Hamelman has been my guru here. He sticks with 1.8% salt in his rye sourdoughs, with a couple of exceptions at 2%. I've tried recipes with as little as a couple of tablespoons to 70% rye, and in hindsight, I think 1.8% salt lets me taste the rye more.

Something caught my interest in your entry. You said your bulk fermentation lasted for 2 hours. Almost all literature I've come across on rye stated that it shouldn't exceed an hour. Because of this I haven't tried exceeding that 1 hour limit. As I read in your entry, you were happy with the results so I'm wondering.

Cooky's picture
Cooky

That looks great, Eric!  

 

"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."

ehanner's picture
ehanner

When I went back and really looked at the salt called for, it adds up to 3.8%. That must be a misprint. I've never seen a recipe with that high  a salt percentage. I have another batch in final proof now that I mixed in total last night late. I used 2 large cups of rye fed starter that had been sitting on the counter all afternoon after feeding. In the final dough I used more like 2%  regular sea salt and I backed the yeast way back from 2 T to 1 teaspoon. After mixing and kneading in enough flour so that I could control it, I dropped it into a bowl and buried it into my refrigerator overnight. This morning it had more than doubled and was overflowing at the top.

I formed into two ovals this time instead of three, for larger loaves, and it's now waiting to rise for baking.

The major differance here is that this time I incorporated all (2 Cups) of the rye in the sponge. I'll post the results when I finish the bake.

Eric

Elagins's picture
Elagins

I've been focusing more and more on rye for the last few months, in part because it's so challenging and in part because I really like the taste. I think that re: the salt in those first loaves, did you take into account that you were using kosher salt, which is less dense than table/sea salt? That might account for the percentage discrepancy.

Tomorrow's my big rye day ... one batch of Nancy Silverton's pumpernickel (80% rye) and one batch of her New York Jewish rye. We shall see. I've also been playing with adding rye and whole wheat to my wild-yeast doughs; turns out that I've been making Glezer's Columbia bread, but without the malt. I just picked up a 3.3# can of amber malt extract (along with a couple of pounds of rye flakes) from my local homebrew supply store, and will be putting together the pumpernickel sponge (rye sour, rye chops/flakes, water) this afternoon. I plan on using the malt extract more extensively in my baking, since there are so many good things it can do to bread and rolls.

I'm really looking forward to this: one of the fun things about working with rye is the anticipation I build up during the 2-3 day rye sour build. Stan

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Good luck with your rye days. I does sound like you are into it.

I have started trying to use my regular sourdough starter modified to suit the requirements of the recipe. I think my starter is much more flavorful and active than anything that can be "quick made" in 3 days. The Rye I made today was very active and reliable in the rise and very flavorful.

Eric

Elagins's picture
Elagins

Eric, I start with my regular sourdough starter, which is very active, and then feed it with dark rye flour and water 3x/day. The SD starter inoculates it with plenty of yeast and lactobacillus; add to that rye's natural yeast-catching affinity and by the third day I have a very bubbly, mouth-puckeringly sour starter. At some point, I'll probably get around to using my rye sour in a primarily wheat loaf -- possibly a two- or three-day sourdough -- and see what effect it has.

FYI, for anyone planning on using Silverton's pumpernickel recipe with rye flakes, BE CAREFUL!!! In the intro she's very specific about following the recipe to the letter, and then specifies the Day One sponge ingredients as 18oz. rye sour, 21oz. rye chops or flakes, 16oz. water, and 1 tsp sea salt.

Well, she must not have tested the recipe with the flakes, because they hydrated rapidly and left my "sponge" looking more like one of the bricks the Hebrews made when they were laboring in Egypt. With only 4oz. more of liquid and 18oz. of flour specified in the Day Two final mix, I somehow don't think the dough's gonna end up "wet and sticky" like she says.

I think I'm just gonna have to play with the recipe, adding lots more liquid and see how it turns out, which I'll share with this community. Meanwhile, the Jewish rye is still on the agenda for this afternoon and should come out well, since I've made it before.

Has anyone else encountered this pumpernickel problem, and if so, how did you handle it?

Stan

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Stan,

I'm looking for a reliable pumpernickel recipe. I don't have Silverton's book so if you would post it when you decide about the rye flakes I would appreciate it.

When you are building your rye starter, do you start off with a small amount and add to it? Or are you feeding it by tossing some or most and feeding on some ratio? I'll have to try that to see if it will improve the tang of the bread. If it's possible could you post a picture of your starter after the 3X day for 3 days feeding? Something that shows the bubble action would be very helpful.

I have been inoculating 270 grams (2 cups) of rye with 100 grams of my starter and 270 grams of water. That's all the rye that goes into my formula. I picked up my first clear yesterday and I'm working up my initial trial batch as we speak.

Eric

sphealey's picture
sphealey

Well, what is pumpernickel? There seem to be dozens of definitions ranging from north-German bricks to very dark-colored New York light rye.

Besides the recipies in Hamelman's book, I liked this recipe for Danish rye from the BBC. I did not add sunflower seeds (as I didn't have any), used about 20% (white) bread flour, and did the final rise overnight in the refrigerator. It actually sprung up quite a bit in the oven but was still dense, chewy, and very flavorful.

sPh

Elagins's picture
Elagins

White rye sourWhite rye sour

Eric, This is my Jewish rye sour on Day 3. I started with a small amount of white starter, maybe 1 oz., and added 3.5oz of dark rye flour and 4oz. of water. Feeding 2, 4-6 hours later was the same amount; feeding 3, also 4-6 hours later was 6oz. of flour, 7.5oz of water. The sour then sat overnight. Next morning, I dumped out half the starter and fed on the same schedule; ditto Day 3, except that for the Jewish rye I began substituting white rye flour for the dark rye.

As for Silverton's pumpernickel, I increased the water to 32oz., and the sponge looks better, although still a bit gummy, but that's typical of rye. Let's see what happens.

Stan

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

Makes me dream of a nice deli corned beef or pastrami, swiss, red onions and mustard mmm! What type of rye flour did you use, light, medium or dark? I've also wondered if they are interchangeable? Would the type make any difference in the amount of water used in a formula?

 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Paddyscake,

I'm guessing it would matter but I'm not the one to ask about those details. From things I have been reading here I would say go easy on the addition of water with rye mixes and only add the amount you need to. I have been adding additional flour to make a manageable dough in the Rye Bread recipe I'm making and that seems to be working out.

I have found that if I add enough clear flour so the dough ball doesn't stick immediately to the counter and I can handle it for a few seconds then that's about right. I don't want to add to much flour. Another way of saying it would be that I want it to be as slack as possible and still be able to handle it during forming. I just pulled 2 two pound loaves out of the oven that look great! I'm really liking Rye.

I'm trying to get ready for a big 4th of July bash where we will be serving 35 pounds of corned beef and I plan on making the bread. I ordered the meat last week so I'm starting to drool a little now! All of this is in preparation for the party. I wanted to know if I could make a good Jewish Rye.

Eric

xma's picture
xma

Paddyscake, based on what I've read, light, medium and dark rye are not interchangeable, although you could make adjustments to suit your preference. I have not had direct experience though because it was love-at-first-try for me with dark rye. Hamelman does not recommend light rye at all, because it lacks the robustness of flavor. In his Jewish rye recipe, I think he says add more water if using dark instead of medium rye. I also remember reading an article on the internet that if you're looking for regular volume of bread, the maximum percentage of rye flour to be used should be 20% if dark, 25% if medium, 30% if light. Again, I don't know how true this is because I'm more after taste and don't really mind dense rye breads, but I remember helend saying it gets a bit dense if she uses above 30% of light rye.

Eric, one tip I got from helend (and I can't thank her enough for it) on handling rye is to use water instead of flour for your hands while kneading. That way the dough doesn't stick, and you're giving the dough more hydration which rye loves.

Happy baking with rye!

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

xma..I could never really find an answer as to the difference. You've answered them, thanks

ehanner's picture
ehanner

XMA,

That sounds like it would work, using water on your hands. Flour certainly doesn't! I have been mixing by hand since I wanted to get the feel for the rye addition and clear, which I haven't worked with. I'll give it a try tomorrow, thanks!

Eric

xma's picture
xma

I must be suffering from memory loss, because I HAVE tried 20% dark rye and it did come out surprisingly light and airy.  I've also tried 25% which I found heavy, but that probably had more to do with the fact that it had 25% whole wheat as well.  (By the way, I didn't care for the taste of that combination.)

You might want to check out helend's recipe in http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/3001/trouble-rye-flour-city.  I'm all set to try the variation using my sourdough starter for the rye pre-ferment because although I was happy with the lightness of the texture of this formula, I was looking for more depth of flavor.  I have to wait until this weekend in order to try it.  I'm also finally going to try it with spelt -- I have this theory that I don't like the combination of rye and whole wheat, so I'm giving spelt a try. 

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

Yum..I love corned beef. Growing up in New England, we went to our local butcher who let us take our pick from his corning barrel ! There is a locally owned grocery story that still has real butchers, nothing pre packaged and corns their own beef. The little things I miss here in Oregon!

I usually adjust my hydration by feel so I have no problem there. I was just curious if your knew. I would like to know what type of rye you used. I'm guessing dark?

ehanner's picture
ehanner

The Rye I have been using is light. I need to get some dark so I can try my hand at Pumpernickel.

My butcher friend has a corned beef sandwich stand at Irish Fest in Milwaukee every year. It's a very popular place. Last year they sold 3200 pounds of CB in sandwiches in 4 days. It's the best I've had.

Eric

Elagins's picture
Elagins

Rye DayRye Day

Well, after considerable anticipation and a couple of missteps, here are the results of today's rye fest: 2 Jewish rye and 2 of Nancy Silverton's 80% rye pumpernickel. (For those who read my earlier post, I solved the liquid problem by just doubling all her liquids -- the dough was insanely sticky and barely manageable; I can't wait to cut the pump, which I'll do tomorrow).

This was the first time I used first clear in the Jewish rye and the rise/spring were unbelievable. Silverton's recipe calls for an initial ferment of 1:15, at which time the dough is supposed to be at about 125% of its original volume. Whether because of the commercial yeast spike or the strength of my starter, the dough ballooned after less than an hour; my second proof was barely 30 minutes and even then I think it overproofed somewhat, although the crumb is beautifully fine and uniform -- like the bakery ryes I remember as a kid in Brooklyn. I think next time I'm going to cut down the hydration a bit to get higher, rounder loaves, but all in all, I'm pretty pleased. The taste was nice and sour, the consistency good; all that was missing were the caraway seeds (my wife hates them). Now if only Eric would be so kind as to ship out some of that corned beef, which I generally have to drive up to LA for, since the stuff that's available in San Diego really blows.

The pumpernickel was unbelievably hard to handle, sticky and reluctant despite at least 6 ounces of rye flour I used in dusting the board. Still, it ought to be a very complex and satisfying bread, containing, as it does, dark rye flour, rye flakes, first clear, malt syrup, and Newcastle dark ale. It's incredibly dense and I'm expecting a very fine crumb, not unlike the German and Russian pumpernickels I've eaten -- if it works, it will be a great accompaniment to smoked salmon and iced vodka. We shall see.

In all, I'm pretty pleased with how things turned out and learned a great deal.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Elagins, That looks good to me. I can't wait to see the Pumpernickel crumb. The formula sounds interesting. I am also enjoying the rye feste.

Eric