The Fresh Loaf

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Formula - Japanese Style White Sandwich Bread - Water Roux Starter / Sponge

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Yippee's picture
Yippee

Formula - Japanese Style White Sandwich Bread - Water Roux Starter / Sponge

Formula - Japanese Style White Sandwich Bread - Water Roux Starter / Sponge

 


http://www.flickr.com/photos/49353374@N06/sets/72157623866998940/show/


 



           
           
From 'The 65 C Bread Doctor" by Yvonne Chen        
           
           
Water Roux Starter          
           
any amount is fine bread flour 50 g    
as long as the 1:5 ratio is followed water  250 g    
           
  Whisk both until well mixed        
  Heat it up on stove, keep stirring         
  until temperature reaches 65 C or 149 F        
  (Yippee uses the microwave, about 4 minutes, stir halfway.)     
  (Final product should leave a trail when stirred.)      
  Put a plastic wrap directly on top to prevent forming a 'skin'.    
  Must be cooled to at least room temperature before use.    
  Refrigerate up to 3 days.          
  Do not use if turns grey.        
           
           
Makes 2 loaves          
Original recipe uses water roux starter only, sponge not necessary.         
Yippee threw in an additional step of developing the sponge out of the total, see side column for her portions.    
           
          Yippee's Sponge
A. bread flour 540 g   400
  sugar 86 g    
  salt 8 g    
  yeast 11 g   8
B. whole eggs 86 g   86
  whipping cream (can substitute with either half n half or milk) 59 g   59
  milk 54 g   54
  milk (recipe calls for flavor enhancer but Yippee uses milk instead) 9 g   9
           
  water roux starter 144 g   2 TBSP out of the 144g
C. butter 49 g    
           
Mix: Combine A. and B. until a ball is formed.         
  Add C. and knead until the dough passes the windowpane test.    
  (Yippee says:  use your judgment, each machine is different)    
  (Yippee kneads her dough in her Zojirushi breadmaker for 30 minutes.   
           
1st Fermentation: About 40 minutes at 28 C or 82.4 F, 75% humidity    
           
Scale:  into 4 pieces if making twin loaves, each at 265g      
  (Yippee makes 2 log loaves, each at 530g)        
Rest:          
  15 minutes at room temperature        
           
Shape: For twin loaves:        
  Degas        
  Roll into an oval        
  With the long side facing you:        
  Fold 1/3 from top to bottom, press to seal        
  Fold 1/3 from bottom to top, press to seal        
  Turn seam side down        
  Roll and elongate the dough to about 30cm or 12 "     
  Upside down and roll into a cylindrical shape      
  Seam side down, into the loaf pan        
           
  For log loaves:        
  Shape like regular sandwich bread        
           
Final Proof: About 40 minutes at 38 C or 100.4 F, 85% humidity     
  (Yippee lets the dough rise for 20 more minutes to get a taller loaf)    
           
Bake: Whole egg wash, no water added        
  350 F, 35-40 minutes        

 

 

Sponge preparation:

 

a.                   Use the ingredients listed on the side column, mixed until all are well incorporated

b.                  Leave at room temperature ~ 76-80F for an hour

c.                   Grease a food grade plastic bag, pour dough in, leave enough space to allow the dough to expand to about 160% of its size, reinforce the bag with double or triple bagging before tightening it, retard overnight

d.                  Subtract the above ingredients from the main formula, whatever remaining will be mixed at the 'Mix' stage with the sponge.  Follow the rest of the formula. 

 

However, if your dough feels cold after mixing due to the refrigerated sponge, instead of following the time suggested in the formula, watch your dough:

 

1st Fermentation:           Completes when the dough has risen to about 180% of its size

 

Final Proof:                   Completes when a dent is formed and very slowly bounces back

                                    when dough is poked with a floured finger

 

 

To make rolls:

Scale: 60g each

Bake: 350F, about 15 minutes

rest of the procedures unchanged

Choice of fillings, if preferred: bacon, roast chicken, cheese, red bean, pork, curry and custard cream.

Pictures of assorted buns I made before:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33569048@N05/sets/72157617619002761/show

Comments

ques2008's picture
ques2008

for the japanese white bread recipe.  glad you didn't forget!

wetodit's picture
wetodit

Hi Yippee,


Thanks for sharing this recipe!  I made it 2 days ago and it's delicious!  Mine didn't rise as much as yours but it was great nonetheless!


When you call for 59g of Whip Cream, do you mean the "ready whip" stuff that comes in a can, the frozen kind like "cool whip", or something altogether different?  I skipped this ingredient and wonder if it made a big difference.


Thanks and happy baking!

Yippee's picture
Yippee

wetodit:


It's whipping cream, or you can use half n half.  The fattier the ingredients, the more aromatic your loaf will turn out.  I use milk when I don't have any whipping cream on hand.  I'll update the formula to avoid future confusion.  Happy baking to you, too.


Yippee

erg720's picture
erg720

what's the logic behind that unic thecnique?

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Water roux starter is a mixture of flour and water in the ratio of 1(F):5(W) by weight heated up to 65 Celsius to achieve gelatinization of starch in the flour, which presumably would retain more water in the dough. Bread made with this starter will have a softer and springier texture plus extended keeping time. This is a very popular technique used in the Asian, especially Chinese and Japanese, baking community.


Yippee

erg720's picture
erg720

it was good, real good. and of course unic. thanks


 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

I'm glad you enjoyed it.


Yippee

kyoto_gal's picture
kyoto_gal

Here I am searching for recipes that aren't Japanese-style bread and this is the first sandwich bread recipe on Google >.< 我慢します!

RobynNZ's picture
RobynNZ

Kyoto-gal I see you have been a member here for a long time, maybe a search on this site would have been more focused than one on Google....


Yippee makes wonderful breads. I thank you for bringing this thread to my attention.


 

Karil's picture
Karil

This recipe looks very intriguing—a must try. And seeing how the crumb pulls apart explains why Japanese style bread crumbs are the way they are. 

diah's picture
diah

I have bake the japanese bread. It is so soft and delicious. Let my sibling and mum try. They love it. I start to like the taste and texture of the bread.  Thank you yippe for the recipe. Hope you can share more of the Japanese bread recipe. Hope to hear from you.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

I'm glad it's enjoyable for you and your family.


 


Yippee

4.184kj's picture
4.184kj

Hi Yippee,


I want to try the sponge & water roux variation but do not understand how to apply the sponge variation calculation and how to modify instructions to use sponge.


Thanks,
4.184kj

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Hi, 4.184kj:


They have been updated to reflect the additional information. Hope it helps. 


Yippee

diah's picture
diah

Yippee I have tried this bread before yeah it is very very delicious. So soft like cotton. My family luv it. Do you have more recipe on this bread.


 


diah

Yippee's picture
Yippee

diah:


My formula is one of the many water roux starter formulae included in the book '65C Bread Doctor (65C 湯種麵包)',ISBN# 962-14-2858-0, by Yvonne Chen .  One of the TFLers mentioned to me last year that one of her family members went to Singapore and found the book. Maybe you can check around your local book stores to see if it's still available. 


Yippee

diah's picture
diah

Thank you Yippee for your info.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

diah:


Here's the link to Yvonne Chen's blog, in case you need to contact her for any information regarding her book.  Good luck. 


http://www.wretch.cc/blog/yvonnecake


Yippee

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Thank you Yippee.  I've never tried Japanese bread, but it sounds really wonderful.  My husband loves a soft white bread and I'm thinking he might really enjoy this recipe. 


Obviously, you have modified it to include a sponge that you let rest overnight.  Do you use the sponge for any other reason other than enhancing the flavor?  I might give this a try today, without using the sponge method and see how it goes.  Then do it again with a sponge.


One question, however... you mentioned dividing the dough in quarters.  Are we talking a standard sized bread loaf pan for those?  9x5 inch size?  If not, what size loaf pans did you use for your 250g doughs?  You said you made two and they were 12 inches long.. far too long for our standard loaf pan.  I can't wait to try - again thanks for sharing this.


And one more question.  You mentioned the original recipe calls for a flavor enhancer.  Do you know what that flavor enhancer was? 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

 


BellesAZ:


 



Do you use the sponge for any other reason other than enhancing the flavor? 



No. 


 



... what size loaf pans did you use for your 250g doughs?



8x4x4


 



   ...they were 12 inches long...



when (each 265g dough) was rolled out with a rolling pin, then


you roll them back into cylinders.


 



...what that flavor enhancer was? 



It's a commercial product readily available in Taiwan to homebakers.  I don't have access to it.


 


Yippee

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Do you know the name of it?  There might be a substitute for it here in the US.  Just curious :)

Yippee's picture
Yippee

are their classification.  Come in either powder or liquid form:



  1. Milk flavor powder

  2. Hokkaido milk sauce


I don'f feel any of them is necessary as the whipping cream has already made the loaves very, very aromatic.


Yippee 

4.184kj's picture
4.184kj

Hi Yippee


Thank you for clarification :).  Understand now and tried to make it last night. Mine came out a bit tough and chewy because I overkneaded the dough in the final shaping stage.  I tried to add raisins to the dough but they kept falling out so I kept shaping and shaping.  sigh.  Then I lost all my air bubbles :(.


But it tastes very good and still soft.  I will try again without the raisins so I won't get into the trouble of the shaping! 


Thanks for your recipe!

Yippee's picture
Yippee

 


Usually, nuts dried fruits are incorporated in the dough when mixing is near completion, when gluten is well developed.  Then dough will go through bulk fermentation, shaping, and final proof. Were you doing it differently?  I can't picture at which stage you degassed the dough.  Anyway, this is a very simple step and I'm sure you'll overcome it next time.


Yippee

lokz's picture
lokz

Hi,


What sort of yeast do you use in the recipe above? fresh or instant or active dry? Please clarify.


Thanks.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

yeast was used in this formula.

Yippee

lokz's picture
lokz

thx for the clarification - it's instant yeast afterall. planning to try out this recipe this weekend

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Hi, lokz:

Please let me know how it turns out. Good luck!

Yippee

lokz's picture
lokz

Hi,


Tried it out last weekend but mine didn't turn out well :


crust became chewy


 



  • temp of my oven? i did check it for 180C


 


texture of bread


 



  • drier than i had expected; did i overknead it? i use my trusty kenwood; i kneaded till it sort of pass the window pane test (half developed stage)

  • noticed that the sponge was dry when i prepared it the night before


 


how do you know when your bread is cooked, apart from using a thermometer?


Is there a recipe using the water roux method but without eggs, butter & milk?  tried searching for a vegan version but no success. am intending to make a vegan version for my mom


thx


 

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

I have baked a similar recipe, but it does not call for egg.  I've tried both and I enjoy this one as much as Yippee's excellent formula - which I must say, mine has never been dry.  If anything, its moist and tender.  But this other recipe I've used is also excellent and does not use egg.   As for the milk/butter.. you'd have to substitute your own options there.  Soy or whatever it is you substitute normally.  Check out the recipe here.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Hi, Lokz:

Kneading
First thing first, the kneading part:  gluten has to be very well developed when making this type of bread.   When you stretch the dough for windowpane test, it should feel elastic and ‘STRONG’, like it would give some resistance when pulled and can be spread out like a silky fabric.  It should be able to stretch EVENLY to a thin layer such as, say, the wing of a dragonfly (you get the picture). The photo shared below, in my opinion, the dough (if it’s used for this bread) is underdeveloped.  To prevent overheating of dough during mixing, use cold/ice water/milk.    If you’re concerned about over-mixing the dough, you may compensate mixing with autolyse and mix for less time, as long as you’re clear about what gluten development you’re targeting for.

Dry sponge/Drier crumb than expected
Different flours react differently to the same hydration.  Add liquid/milk/water, 1 teaspoon at a time, until it feels/looks right to you. Make a note of it for future reference and adjust the overall hydration of your formula.

Vegan
Formulae in the book all contain the ingredients you want to omit.  I can assure you the bread won’t turn out as attractive and tasty without them.  You may try substituting milk/cream with water; and butter with vegetable oil.  Egg can be substituted by water and fat according to their corresponding contents.

For your purpose, I’d suggest using a leaner, artisan formula for sandwich bread instead.

Chewy crust
I don’t recall my crust being crispy, either; but it never occurred to me to be chewy.  Try diluting whole egg wash with equal part of water and apply a thin layer only.

Internal Temperature
When I made this bread two years ago, I was really green at bread making.  I did make it with a probe inserted in the dough when baked at the beginning, until I could sync the baking time with the right internal temperature.   

Hope this helps.

Yippee

     

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Yippee,


Sorry, but I would disagree with your comment that the image of the dough is underdeveloped.  As I said in my description below,.. my husband snapped the photo just before I was ready for him to do so.  I could have and did pull that dough much thinner with no tearing - unfortunately, he took the shot too soon.  Furthermore, it doesn't matter if it's your formula or another formula.. a window pane is a window pane.  A properly developed dough should be able to withstand pulling with equal force on both sides without the dough tearing.. the dough should be translucent so that light can be seen through the dough. 

lokz's picture
lokz

Hi, Yippee,


Thank you for taking the time to answer my queries.  Appreciate especially your generosity in sharing your experiences. Read in another thread that it took you weeks of expt to perfect this recipe. *salute*.


Will be trying it out today.  Update you about my expt.  all digits crossed now ... still a very newbie to bread making


Have a great weekend,


lokz

lokz's picture
lokz

Hi,


Thanks for the tips.  Am sure Yipee's recipe works.  Just wondering what went wrong with mine, that's all.  


The recipe that you have recommended - ve tried using it & the results are as expected.


Think it is back to the drawing board for me - to expt till i've mastered yipee's method.


 

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Well, if you're dough is properly hydrated then your dough should be quite sticky.  If it's not.. you have either too much flour or you need more hydration. 


Do you measure or weigh your flour and liquids?  Weighing is going to give you a better shot at success.  I am not sure what achieving window pane halfway means, but you either achieve window pane or you don't. 


As for the offer of the other recipe, you asked for one that doesn't use egg.  That's the only one I know of and I was trying to be helpful.  I have no idea what you mean by your "expected results", but I've had nothing but soft, fluffy bread with that recipe.. and with Yippee's. 


Good luck.

lokz's picture
lokz

thanks, round 2 for me.  will cont to work towards mastering Yipee's recipe.


yes, i weighed everything out.  it was much easier - takes the guesswork out.


The final dough was just nice to handle - soft but not sticky but the sponge was dry.


window pane test - it's sort of translucent in the centre & opaque at the sides.


your suggestion of recipe : it's similar to the one i tried from Corner Cafe


 

BellesAZ's picture
BellesAZ

Yes, I am know about window panes.. I've asked two different camps about window pane.. and I get two different answers.  Some say window panes aren't that important because the dough develops gluten with time and hydration.  I just spoke to a baker in Germany who suggests that stretching and folding every half hour gives you more volume and achieves better results. 


With that being said, however, it's purely a matter of personal choice in most cases.  For this bread, I think a strong mix to full window pane helps in the development of the dough since it doesn't ferment overnight, but is a straight dough.  Here is a pic of my last window pane.. it was nearly there, but my husband was anxious and took the shot.  LOL


I think you're right.. practice makes perfect.  I have also posted a recipe here that is similar to Yippees and I've had great luck with it.  It adds the egg directly to the initial roux and uses milk.  I know you were looking for a vegan formula, but if you want to try that recipe you should.. you may get different results.  A friend had to interpret it for me.. lol.  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20081/super-soft-custard-bread-images


teketeke's picture
teketeke

I made your bread with water roux starter. ( YUDANE  湯だね/湯種 )I decreased the sugar amount down to 5% and instand yeast ( Bread machine yeast ) down to 1 %.    I also put the water roux starter in a refrigerator after it is cooled for 6 hours.    I let the dough rest at 28c for 1 hour ( the dough rose tripled in bulk)  and... I had to leave the dough in a tin at 22-26c for 2.5 hours because I had to go out.   I expected the bread came out chewy as other Japanes bakers said. But this bread crumb is really soft and nice texture.  While kneading the dough, I was worried because the dough was really sticky like keading stew dumplings, but it came out smooth and shiny at the end of bulkfermentation.  The bread got brown on the top just 5 minutes past after I started to bake at 410F with steam that I sprayed water 4 times in the wall of the oven.  Of course, I decreased the oven to 350F after that. It took 35 minutes in totall to bake.



Your Japanese style sandwich loaf was a huge hit!  Thank you, Yippee. 


Many Japanese home bakers use 1: 1.25 = boiling water : bread flour. then put it in a refrigerator for over night.    I have never tried a water roux starter loaf until now.  Have you tried the way?    It is very interesting method and I'd like to experiment yours and the other method of water roux starters for a while.  Thank you for sharing your great loaf recipe.


Best wishes,


Akiko

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Hi, Akiko :

I'm surprised to hear that this is your first experience with 湯種, as it was originally developed by a well-respected Japanese professional baker, 綾野光男, in 昭和 36 年. I made this type of breads exclusively in the first month or two when I first started learning to bake, and the results were encouraging. Once I felt that I'd mastered the techniques of this category of breads, I've moved on to the artisan side. I'm glad you've enjoyed it.

Yippee

dwfender's picture
dwfender

Have you by any chance had any experience with baking these as a roll? Mabye a change in temperature or oven time? 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

dwfender:


Hope it helps.


Yippee

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

for introducing to us the water roux method.  I finally managed to purchase the book by Yvonne Chen, I followed her recipe using a bit of whipping cream and for the flavour enhancer (not sure what it meant at the time) I decided to use a bit of vanilla extract in my dough and the bread was awesome.  It's the best bread I've made to date in terms of softness and taste.  I even used a bit of the dough to make individual buns wiith apple and cinnnamon filling. I was absolutely thrilled to see it rise in the oven within a few minutes!  This is the best method for a sweet dough for buns with filling or on its own as a loaf bread. Unfortunately I don't have a stand mixer and the kneading took quite a while to reach windowpane effect.  Best, Judy

Yippee's picture
Yippee

How are things in Hong Kong? Is the frantic 盲搶鹽 over yet? People must be scared.

May be you could try autolyzing the dough w/o the yeast + a few S&F to develop the gluten first before hand kneading it.

Glad you like the bread. Do you mind tell us where the book is available for sale cos I think some people here might be interested? Thanks.

All the best,

Yippee

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

Hello Yippee,  you must be keeping a very close watch on the HK news scene.  I found the headline extremely apt and witty and  has made us Hongkies a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.  The frantic rush for salt is over now and stocks of salt are back on the supermarket shelves.  


I bought her book from the Commercial Press Bookstore but I also saw copies in Cosmos and various other Chinese bookstores although I have recently been told that its out of stock. 


I will take up your suggestion of autolysing the dough before kneading.   Should I be adding all the liquid ingredients incl. crream, egg and milk tog. with the roux or just mix the water roux in the flour first before adding the rest of the liquid ingredients (there's very little water roux to moisten all the flour so I am guessing that it's fine to add everything in at the same time?  Cheers, Judy

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Hi, Judy:

Yes, I'd add all liquid ingredients at once, mix well, then let it autolyze in the fridge. I would not want to take a chance when raw egg and dairy products are present.

Yippee

AnnaMagnani's picture
AnnaMagnani

Hi, Yippee:

How long would you autolyse a dough that did not have egg and dairy?  I leave it for 10-20 minutes, so I haven't worried about it going bad in that short time.  (I don't think it makes a difference here, but I make all my bread in a food processor.)

Sharon

 

Yippee's picture
Yippee

Sorry again for an even more extended delay in replying your question. The timing of autolyse can range from an hour to two hours, usually depends on how occupied I'm with other tasks. 

Yippee

RuthieG's picture
RuthieG

I hope I don't sound to dense but regarding the recipe....in particular...is the sponge a percentage or part of the recipe total.....


 


in other words the sponge calls for 400 g's of flour.....is that 400 g's of the original recipe amout of 540 or an additional 400.......


 


I hope I am clear.the question is.....does the recipe call for 540 g's of flour or 940?  of course that same question applies to all ingredients in the sponge...


 


I so want to try this bread but don't quite understand the recipe.  American brain is confused enough by grams and then the recipe has me reeling.......any help would be appreciated.

Yippee's picture
Yippee

as I was traveling during the Spring Break. The formula calls for 540g of bread flour in total. The amounts of ingredients used for sponge are part of the total (column on the left), not in addition to it.

Yippee

jyslouey's picture
jyslouey

the water roux amt in your recipe specifies 144 grms while  the  recipe in the book calls for 184 grs for 540 grs flour.  I've baked this bread a couple of times using half the amt and I have been using 92 grms of the water roux each time.  I will give your sponge method a try next time when I'm making this bread again.  Best wishes, Judy

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