The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

Glossary contributions, anyone?

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Cooky's picture
Cooky

Glossary contributions, anyone?

Here's a thought that might be helpful to us greenhorns, and perhaps give a bit of a hand to our beloved friend, the incredibly hardworking Floyd:

I keep coming across terms I need to hunt down on the web, so I'm thinking those of you with much more experience than I might be willing to contribute some simple, one-graf definitions of some of the words we come across on this site. I know that expanding the glossary (run a search to find it fast) is on Floyd's ever-expanding to-do list, so maybe our (or should I say 'your') combined efforts might save him some labor.

Here are the terms that are in the glossary now:

autolyse. BBA (The Bread Baker's Apprentice). crumb. folding. gluten. poolish. sponge (aka preferment).

Here are a few other words I did not recognize when I first encountered them: desem. levain. biga. spelt.

I'll bet there are others with words they can suggest for glossarizing (is that a word?)

 

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Yeah, if folks here can come up with some concise definitions I'll be happy to add them to the glossary.

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Well, maybe two word definitions that beginners like myself would benefit from having defined are: bread and cake.  What are their definitions and how are they distinctly different. 

Thanks, CB

Cooky's picture
Cooky

No such thing as too basic when you're a beginner. And we know how kind this site is to beginners. 

 

"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

In my understanding Bread is a combination of flour, liquid, and perhaps yeast or other leavening.   Adding sugar (in any form) to bread brings it closer to the definition of cake. Upwards of 20 gm of sugar per kilo of flour used, bread becomes cake.

BROTKUNST's picture
BROTKUNST

So according to you P. Reinhard's Pizza Neo-Napoletana is a 'cake' ... maybe a cheese-cake :)

 

The Neo-Napoletana formula calls for 1 Tablespoon of sugar on 22.5 oz of flour (13g of sugar on 638g flour or 2.03 %) ... same as your 20g sugar on 1kg of flour (2%).

 

BROTKUNST

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

The biggest problem with distinguishing bread from cake is that many bread recipies have too much sugar especially American recipies.  And American cake (and dessert) recipies have too much salt.  Although I have noticed that some salt levels have been dropping in many newer cookbooks.  I only add sugar for the yeast in a bread recipe not for sweet tooths.  

More than 10g of sugar to 500g flour is too sweet.  (My Tablespoon btw has 15g) 

BROTKUNST's picture
BROTKUNST

My understanding is that yeast can only feed properly in the most simple sugars like glucose, fructose . Table Sugar or "Sucrose" is a two-chain sugar an thus too complex for yeast.

 

So I guess you are not refereing to 'Table Sugar' when you say you 'add sugar for the yeast in the bread not for the sweet tooth', or ?

 

BROTKUNST

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

when you said

that many bread recipies have too much sugar especially American recipies.  And American cake (and dessert) recipies have too much salt.

The American palette is so conditioned to this overload of sugar and salt that it is not even worth discussing with the uninitiated.  It is for that reason that the Klosterbrot that I love so much is sold in German meat stores where patrons have their palette conditioned to other levels of salt and sugar. It is my belief that most Americans tasting the Klosterbrot, just won't "get it". 

On the other hand, it is interesting to note that the two big names in bread making right now are Hamelman and Rienhart which sound a bit German to my ears and hopefully suggest a change for things to come.

enjoy, cb

BROTKUNST's picture
BROTKUNST

I am not a big fan of talking in genaral terms about a people or a culture - especially if something negative is to be said.

 

Countryboy, if you like the Klosterbrot (a German wholemeal-rye bread or 'Schwarzbrot') that much because if would not be "conditioned to this [American] overload in sugar" you should know that original 'Schwarzbrot' contains a rather very large portion of pure sugar cane syrup ... way beyond the 2% level that has been condemed here as "turning bread into cake".

 

Just that we don't misunderstand each other - I agree with you that in general sugar and salt should added on a need-to-use basis. Salt however has a multilayer function in the bread chemistry, so much that R. Calvel even emphatically advices against a delayed addition of salt beyond the point of Autolyse. I think we agree that a 2% level would not be an 'overload', or?

 

This is the more serious part: I hope you don't consider me to be one of the "unititiated" or "unskilled", "inexperienced" individuals with it is "not even worth discussing with" - in that case my reply was just a waste of time. With a stroke of a pen you put yourself on a pretty high pedestal there, running a risk to offend many others - me included - who do not claim to stand above others and are willing to 'talk bread' with every polite individual who is interested and has a question or an opinion.

 

Now, I have read other comments from you before and I am not really offended because I consider your choice of words more unintentional than born from a sense of 'living on a higher ground' - unfortunate nevertheless.

 

Also, I assume that you and MiniOven are US-Americans - in which case tarnishing one's own people in general terms is one thing. However, if you would not be, I'd advice an even more tempered attitude when you carry such 'a big stick'.

 

No hard feelings ... BROTKUNST

 

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

with both of those posts but Brotkunst I'm in agreement with you that it really did fill "icky" reading both of those posts and I did have to sit on my hands to keep from posting angrily.

Just wanted you to know someone else "got their message".

BROTKUNST's picture
BROTKUNST

Of course, you don't need any seniority to voice an opinion (I have no seniority here either by the way). I think just the two got each other on the wrong track and did not really intend to sound the way it is written.

 

If somebody just would have told Icarus ... :)

 

BROTKUNST

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

just an observation.  I suppose I might get upset when the German kitchen is thrown together with the Austrian kitchen,  but near boarders there tends to be some overlap.  I am also talking about "average" and there are always exceptions. 

I remember my first stateside "Pot Luck" after living outside the US for 5 years.  A most memorable experience.  I was polite but had to try a bite of everything.  My husband let me go first. After trying everything, I had to suggest which foods I thought he could try.  My mother had to rescue me later with Pepto Bismal, for massive indigestion with extended bloating.  I never thought that mixing everything together would get me into so much trouble.  When we hit the dessert table, the salt levels!  I had eaten these foods years before, but now one bite was enough, sometimes too much.  I learned to not go to "Pot Luck" dinners without taking enough for my own family.  Sorry. So what it comes down to is that deffinitions based on taste are relative and change from house to house.  Another such deffinition is: bread is dry and cake is moist.  I just wanted to get you all thinking...must be the teacher in me.... Mini Oven

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

statement:

"The American palette is so conditioned to this overload of sugar and salt that it is not even worth discussing with the uninitiated.  It is for that reason that the Klosterbrot that I love so much is sold in German meat stores where patrons have their palette conditioned to other levels of salt and sugar. It is my belief that most Americans tasting the Klosterbrot, just won't "get it"."  - Mini Oven

Sorry Mini but these statements are just plain offensive in content and tone. You can't even say, "It's not what you say; It's how you say it." Because it's both! There is a snobbish know-it-all intonation in these statements that really smack a reader. What makes you so special that you ARE an authority on the "initiated" and just what are the qualifications to be considered part of the "elite initiated group"?  That's just totally ridiculous!

And to make such a gross generality about the "crassness" of the American palette is absurd! I can tell you in a tasting match I would pit my palette against yours in a heartbeat. And I would stake a claim that there are MANY of the posters on this site who have an equally refined and savvy palette such as yours! This is such a put-down!

I will tell you Mini, it may not matter to you one iota, but I lost respect for you with this post. And it won't matter to me how much knowledge you have to impart, because I  can get knowledge with as much import as yours from someone that I respect. It's good to know "your level" and to see YOUR true colors.

I feel the same way about Country Boy. I feel his "humble" posts are obsequious attempts to disguise his true underlying personality flaws. A couple of his recent posts like the one above let us get a glimpse. Not pretty.

So in closing, I am not placated Mini. I'm still offended and don't believe your contrition is genuine.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Sorry to point out a mis-quote... but...that was countryboy's line.  Please check the author..Mini Oven

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

replace your name with Country Boy because I did not follow the threads correctly. Apparently I'm extra cheesed-off at Country Boy, then! :-/

Your statement of "most American recipes have too much sugar and salt." and I'm paraphrasing so I hope I'm not getting that wrong just added fuel to my fire over this. Again, why do you have to speak as "the authority"? Why can't you simply add the "to my tastes" or make it sound like it is your opinion only and not a "statement of fact"?

Just because a recipe is too salty or sweet for you doesn't mean it is to the rest of the world. Taste IS subjective. Like almost anything having to do with sensory perception...the perception alone is subjective. There are no absolutes. And when you make a broad sweeping statement about an entire country (never mind that this country, America, is so completely heterozygous or multi-cultural now) it's just plain offensive. Especially when you factor in the America-bashing that is going on world-wide in today's political climate.

And as a teacher, I'm doubly shocked that you would make broad generalizations and sweeping statements about another country...

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I agree with you there.  Stick the word "my" before "American" if you like.  I was not trying to be offensive but hoping to get some input from others on just where they thought the line should be drawn between bread and cake? When does bread become dessert? Does it make a difference? Why is bread thought of as a basic food and cake a luxury? Mini Oven

Cooky's picture
Cooky

Okay, I see  how this glossary process may not be as easy as it looks. Anybody have anything simpler than the cake/bread question?

 

"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."

susanfnp's picture
susanfnp

OK, here are some I thought of off the top of my head. I would be happy to contribute definitions to all except the ones marked with (*), but I don't want to seem like I am appointing myself as the expert, being as I am new and definitely not an expert.

 

preferment, levain, starter, biga, sourdough

bread flour, high-gluten flour

boule, batard

couche, banneton, brotform, lame

mix, ferment, proof, score

desem*, detmold(?sp)*

RLB, KAF, KA, ABAA,

bread*, cake*

 

Susanfnp

Cooky's picture
Cooky

I'd be happy to see your definitions, Susan. You might inspire others to take on some other terms. As you have probably figured out, if folks on the board feels the need to add to or modify something you post, they won't hesitate to hop in. We're a chatty bunch, but friendly.

 

"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."

susanfnp's picture
susanfnp

... in alphabetical order

Please feel free to delete or modify as needed

 

ABAA: Artisan Baking Across America, by Maggie Glezer. A book featuring profiles of artisan bakers and recipes for some of their breads.

Baker’s percentage: a convention for listing the ingredients in a dough in which the quantity of each ingredient is expressed a percentage of the total amount of flour. Example: 1000g flour, 660g water, 20g salt, 10g yeast is expressed in baker’s percentage as 100% flour, 66% water, 2% salt, 1% yeast. Note that this always adds up to more than 100%

Banneton: a woven basket, sometimes lined with iinen, used to hold a shaped loaf while it is proofing

Batard: a loaf that has an oval or oblong shape

Biga: a term used variously as a very stiff (~50% hydration preferment), or as a generic term for preferment

Boule: a round loaf (French for “ball”)

Brotform: a coiled cane basket used to hold a shaped loaf while it is proofing

Couche: heavy linen fabric used to hold formed loaves for proofing. The fabric can be pleated around the loaves to help them hold their shape.

Fermentation: (1) the process by which yeast metabolizes sugars to produce carbon dioxide and alcohol (2) (aka bulk fermentation, first fermentation) the period of time the dough rests after mixing and before dividing/shaping.

Hamelman, Jeffrey: bakery director at King Arthur Flour and author of Bread: A Baker’s Book of Techniques and Recipes, a comprehensive book aimed at both professional and home bakers

Hydration: the ratio of liquid ingredients (primarily water) to flour in the dough. A dough with 500g of flour and 340g of water has a hydration of 68% (340/500)

KA: Kitchen Aid or King Arthur

KAF: King Arthur Four

Lame: a thin blade on a handle, used to score (slash) loaves before baking

Levain: usually used as a synonym for sourdough


Leonard, Thom: A baker featured in ABAA whose Country French Bread is popular with many members of The Fresh Loaf

Pâte fermentée (aka prefermented dough): a type of preferment in which the ingredients (flour, water, yeast, salt) are mixed in the same proportion as (usually) a basic white bread dough at about 65% hydration.

Proof: (1) the final rise of the shaped loaves before baking (2) the hydration of dry active yeast in water before it is added to the dough

RLB: Rose Levy Beranbaum, author of The Bread Bible, a book aimed at the home bread baker

Score (aka slash or dock): to cut the surface of the loaf prior to baking. This provides for controlled expansion of the loaves during baking so they do not “break” undesirably. Scoring is also used to enhance the appearance of the bread

Sourdough: a preferment that is a culture of wild yeast and bacteria that is perpetuated by the periodic addition of flour and water, or a bread leavened in whole or part by this culture

 

Susanfnp

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Great additions. I've updated the glossary with them.

Pizzette's picture
Pizzette

Can we please add "frissage" to the glossary? I had to go google that one.

Pizzette

Rosalie's picture
Rosalie

If Bread and Cake are to be included in the glossary, they should, probably by necessity, be given general definitions.  Specific items may be given names that don't fit the general definitions because that's just what they're called.  I would call Banana Bread a bread - a Sweet Bread, if you will - because it's heavier than I think of a cake being.

Anyway, why would we need Bread and Cake in a glossary?  Isn't the glossary to clarify confusing terms?  If I don't know what KA means, I might go to the glossary.  But would people be looking up Bread and Cake?  The only reason they'd be in the glossary would be to arbitrate an argument.

The political world is full of semantic arguments.  This forum should stay friendly.  Po-tay-to, po-tah-to.  Who cares?

Rosalie

susanfnp's picture
susanfnp

Rosalie, I agree. My inclusion of these on my list of glossary suggestions, wherein I "starred" them as ones I wasn't comfortable writing a definition for, was a lame attempt to humorously say "I'm not touching this one with a 10-foot pole." My sincerest apologies if it added fuel to the fire.

And that's all I'm ever gonna say again about bread and cake.

Susanfnp

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

I don't get disturbed by those types of debates. I too agree with you and Rosalie.

My beef is about respecting one another and basic courtesy: to each other, to our various cultures, etc. I will always fail to see why one person's skills or advantages or knowledge level allows them to behave as an elitist. Most especially on a site where the topic is food or baking bread as the case is here.

Why do people have to look down on other people? On other nations? On other cultures? It just makes me furious, frankly! I see this on so many cooking sites. I had hoped our community was exempt from this behavior and lack of manners.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Bluezebra, your remarks are harsh, shrill and poorly targeted. Further, your rant about lack of manners appears to apply largely to yourself. Very disappointing on TFL.

 

Eric

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

as an American, I don't have a justification for feeling upset by the remarks of Countryboy and also Mini? Why is it shrill and harsh to defend my country and patriotism Eric?

I feel very strongly about patriotism and am very proud and grateful to live in a country that allows the freedom for people (even fellow countryment) to malign it's people.

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I don't need a lecture from you about patriotism. I am a patriot in all senses of the word. You are in my opinion looking for the smallest reason to attack members cloaked in the banner of defending your rights. While I don't agree with CB's comments he does not deserve to be flamed by the likes of you. Mini has been openly attacked because you don't like her assessment of global formula biases.

Our country was not being attacked and it didn't need defending. You say you are "very proud and grateful to live in a country that allows the freedom for people (even fellow countryment) to malign it's people". I think maybe you meant to say something else and just weren't thinking.

Eric

Floydm's picture
Floydm

Don't you have anything better to do than take offense at everything? The original comment was pretty pointless, but I don't think it is cause to start a riot either.

Glossary terms anyone?

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

Thanks for pointing out that  I am unworthy to be posting my position about this subject because I am "the likes of me". I'm really not sure what that means either Eric.  I have been nothing but polite and friendly to everyone on this board. So can you please explain what you meant?

The perception that I took away from CB's post was that he was being derogatory toward our whole culture as "American's" and again MY PERCEPTION was that Mini was in accord with him and went on to add her own take on the "dumb/American palette". I did not take umbrage with her assessment of the global formula bias I took umbrage with her position as an authority and for making a broad general statement that was derogatory toward the "uncouth American palette!"

Also, I'm sorry you perceive me as lecturing YOU! I'm sure you are a strong patriot. It's not my place to lecture you about patriotism. And it's irrelevent whether or not you are a patriot in this particular situation. I was explaining MY feelings and why statements such as these hit such a sore spot with me! I am stating my position on this subject, not your position and not telling you to take a position patriotic or not.

And what my garbled empassioned writing meant while I was highly upset, was that "I am proud to live in a country who assures each person freedom. Even when that means it gives a person license to be derogatory to their own country. Because good or bad, we still have more freedoms and more blessings than darned near any other free country on earth and to top it off we have men and women dying every day ensuring that freedom.

 

JMonkey's picture
JMonkey

We are all very passionate about bread and bread-baking here, but in the end, really, it's just bread. Some like it sweet; some like it savory. Some like it white; some like it brown.

However, I think we can all agree on one thing. No one likes burned bread.

I'm not trying to squash anyone's voice. I'd just hate to see another flamewar break out so soon after the last one finally died out.

Cooky's picture
Cooky

 Passionate opinions are healthy, and there are many excellent places on the net to explore them. While we're here, I hope we can all be mindful of our host's request for kind, civil discourse.

To quote Floyd directly, "People here are more helpful, more courteous, less judgmental, more humane than on most other boards. ... *that* is what I want to cultivate here."

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

Where does the German Christmas Stollen fall into in this discussion?

I suppose, technically, it is bread, but I treat it as dessert.  Used to go through a whole loaf with a pot of coffee and my German  brother-in-law!  Ahhh, those were the good old days, when my figure and my metabolism could handle all that.

food is food is food is food, regardless of where it comes from.  Speaking of which, is anyone familar with the Chinese unleavened bread I used to eat with Mongolian Bar B Que in Taiwan?

Old Camp Cook

mse1152's picture
mse1152

Hi all,

Just got back from a few days out of town.  On the bread vs. cake question, I think it depends on the manner of leavening.  Bread is leavened with yeast (or not at all), and cake is leavened with baking powder or soda.  Bread also generally needs a higher protein flour than cake.

Sue