The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

German Rye Bread

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CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

German Rye Bread

Hi, I am starting up this thread because I don't want to hijack or in anyway take Cookie's thread off on a tangent that she may not wish.

The bread is am talking about is found at this site and is the Klosterbrot. sphealey has suggested reading RLB's the bread bible and Jeff Hammelman's bread. I have read both and am curious as to whether or not the ....detmold....method is necessary for baking this type of bread. The description of detmold is quite intimidating for me since I am a new comer to bread and I am wonder just how necessary it is for this bread. Can someone say?

Klosterbrot
Click label for nutritional info

A medium-textured, firm European sourdough. This bread is a favorite. No seeds & lots of old world flavor.
1lb (s) | 2lb (s)(u) | 4lb (s)(u) | 7lb (u)
454g | 907g | 1.8kg | 3.18kg
ehanner's picture
ehanner

Country Boy,

Have you found a recipe for this bread? I search for Klosterbrot and didn't get any hits other than sites selling the dimpfbreadex products. Mini-Oven posted an interesting recipe also that looks like it might be a nice rye. I do have a friend who might be able to help with this. I'll check and see if he knows what I'm referring to.

Eric

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

To get a start at a recipe, I'd look at the ingredient list on the label.  By law, all ingredients must be listed in order of quantity used from most to least.

If the bread is a German rye bread, then it will have only rye flour in it.  To be called a rye bread in Germany, it has to be 100% rye.  If it has less, it is a "mischbrot" or a mixed bread.  A "roggen misch brot" is a mixed bread with mostly rye flour.  A "Weizenmischbrot" is mostly wheat.

The production realities are that rye flour has little gluten in it, and it is of very low quality.  If your rye bread has a small quantity of rye flour, you can treat it pretty much the way you would any white bread.  As the amount of rye flour goes up, life gets trickier.

While rye doesn't have much in the way of gluten, it does have a starch called a pentosan that can be gelatinized in an acidic environment.  And pentosans can trap carbon dioxide.  So, rye breads with lots of rye flour are traditionally made by acidifying much of the rye flour by the use of a sourdough culture.  German bakers since the mid 1800's have used sourdough to acidify the rye flour and yeast to raise the bread.  There is no reason you can't use an all sourdough process.

Since rye flour has little gluten, you can't develop a high rye bread by stretch and fold.  It has to be mixed.  You also need to not overmix it or the pentosans break down.  Feel the dough.  You want to feel resistance to your fingers as you rub the dough.  (It's a feel thing that is easy to teach in person and all but impossible to communicate on line.) 

The last gotcha is that rye pentsans are leaky. With a wheat bread you can let it sit waiting for the oven for as much as an hour without losing too much quality.  This is called tolerance.  Rye has no tolerance.  Once it's risen, get it in the oven.  RIGHT AWAY!

My comments are a bit late, but I hope they help,

Mike

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

June 6  (spelling correction June 15)

I especially like the touchy feely part. Another Q about flour: The dark stuff that's filtered out of milled rye, is that what is referred to as "schrot" in German?  The packaged liquid starter I purchased from the local supermarket contained rye schrot among other things.  I have not been able to purchase just schrot.

I was reading your "Camp" blog about rye, Hamelman and all. Great Blog! I've recycled bread too! I like a 50/50 mix of rye and wheat myself.   --Mini Oven

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

for the answer.  Yes, I come up with the same results that you do when I search for Klosterbrot in Google.  That is possibly just a company name for it. The recipe that Mini Oven posted appears to be an excellent recipe but for something else.  The recipe that I am looking for is definitely sourdough rye but has no seeds in it.  I definitely do not want to be a bother to you on this so please do not go out of your way, but for me this bread is the holy grail that I have pretty much resigned myself to never being able to make. But I do continue to dream about it....I did find the following on Klosterbrot for what it is worth:

 Calories in Monastery(Klosterbrot) Manufactured by Dimpflmeier Bakery LTD 
 
Nutrition Facts
Serving Size 1 serving (51.0 g)
 
Amount Per Serving
Calories 120Calories from Fat 0 % Daily Value*
Total Fat 0.0g0%
Sodium 240mg10%
Total Carbohydrates 25.0g8%
Dietary Fiber 1.0g4%
Protein 4.0g
 
Vitamin A 0% • Vitamin C 0%
Calcium 0% • Iron 6%
 
* Based on a 2000 calorie diet

thanks, countryboy

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

I, too, learned to love the German rye bread during the eight years I was stationed there.  There is absolutely nothing like it.

I googled Kloister (which is German for monastery) in hopes that might bring a source. 

I did find a German saying that I thought was pretty cool.

"Altes Brot ist nicht hart, kein Brot, das ist hart."

Translated:  Old bread is not hard, no bread, that is hard"

Old Camp Cook

ehanner's picture
ehanner

OK, you guys have me interested now. I live near Milwaukee WI which is a city founded by German immigrants and littered with old German restaurants. We have a German Festival every year that draws huge crowds and all the most popular restaurants set up food booths. My butcher who is German knows everybody who is anybody in the community. If this bread is as popular as it appears to be in Canada and Germany, I'll figure it out. Be patient but have faith. It can't be buried to far.

Eric

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

there are a lot of recipes for rye bread out there and that they all make very good bread.  However, what you have to do is actually taste this bread first.  If you are near Milwaukee with a German population, then maybe there is a Karl Ehmer meat store where they will actually slice off as little or much as you want.  Then after you taste it ask around for a recipe.  My father in law is from Germany and loves baking but does not know this bread.  However he goes to a local German meat store in Queens, NY that is German and sells great Lithuanian rye bread that you can't  get elsewhere, either.  But that is another story.

Eating this Klosterbrot bread for the first time is what it is like for the blind to wake up and see or for those who are color blind to see color.  It is: very subtle in taste, quiet, cool, creamy, with a soft chewy crust and no seeds but tastes of rye and sourdough.

thanks, countryboy

Cooky's picture
Cooky

Your description   -- "very subtle in taste, quiet, cool, creamy, with a soft chewy crust and no seeds but tastes of rye and sourdough" -- sounds a lot like what I'm looking for. I'm ordering some Klosterbrot today, along with a couple other varieties they list that look like they're in the ballpark.  Hoping that tasting it will guide me in which recipes to try.

 Thanks! (And isn't it fun to see how many other people are on mighty quests for Great Ryes From Cherished Memories.)

 

"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."

ltlmccomas's picture
ltlmccomas

Countryboy....

Would you be willing to ask your father the name of the German Meat Store in Queens?  I would love to order some of the lithuanian bread. Thanks!

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

OK, will do.  I will be seeing him at Easter time.

Please note, however, that the Klosterbrot from the Karl Ehmer stores is different from the Lithuanian bread.  My sense is that they are two very different breads or recipes.

Eric did a nice job on the baking and photos that he has put up for the Klosterbrot.  I just had some Klosterbrot again recently and the crumb is nice and light and the crust nice and chewy.  In the recipe they give for this Klosterbrot they list Dry Whey, which is an item that is not really ever discussed on this forum.

 

 

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

My wife tells me that the Lithuanian Bread is from the Karl Ehmer store in Queens.

ltlmccomas's picture
ltlmccomas

I am interested in the Lithuanian bread.  I know it is different.  Happy Easter!

jkandell's picture
jkandell

I've been experimenting with Lithuanian ryes as well.  Compared with a german rye they are sweeter (like apple juice) with a fine flour and a wonderful smooth shiny crust.  I think "sweet and sour" is the best description of the unique flavor I can offer. 


Frankly, I know how to get the sour part (standard rye techniques) but I've not been able to replicate the authentic sweet flavor yet.  I plan on experimenting with apple cider or grated apples and sugar left out to ferment for a week. 


 

pjkobulnicky's picture
pjkobulnicky

 I think that one can easily experiment to get the product you desire.  From what I can gather, here are the essentials of Bavarian Ryes (latte colored crumb with coco colored crust)

50% rye flour, 50% white (not even high gluten necessary)

60% final hydration rate

Natural starter (white or rye both OK). Incorporate starter ingredients into final percentages. Build starter slowly to encourage acid. Maybe 1/3 of final weight is built up starter. I'd do 1/9th becoming 1/3 becoming the final dough.

The usual 1 tsp salt per pound of dough put in during the initial kneed with a wee bit of water. 

Most recipes seem to have a wee bit of sweetener (brown or white sugar) maybe a Tbsp per pound but I'd start with just one Tbsp for a two-three pound loaf. This resonates with a slight sweetness I have sensed in most bavarian ryes.

Slow rises at cool temps.

BIG loaves ... as big as your form and oven will permit.

 

From here you can play with stuff.  Bavarian Rye does not have caraway but may have a tad of other spices ... purists will omit spices. You can add some softened rye berries. You can alter the percentages of rye vs white and you can make the white higher gluten.

 

What'ya think? Sound about right? 

Paul Kobulnicky

Baking in Ohio

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

You listed for German rye sounds nice but I have a few questions as to execution:

  1. How do I execute the concept of "Slow rises at cool temps" in the summer time? Do I just use ice water all the time? As you can see on the forum I am asking about that on another thread in the Water Temp conversation.
  2. Also, I notice in the ingredients of the Klosterbrot package from the store that there was mention of malt.  Have you used it?  I have tried it and it did not taste right when I gave it a go.

 thanks, countryboy

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

Countryboy,

As YOU work out this final recipe, let ME know! (LOL)

If my old memory serves me correctly, we used to get a commercial version( and I dont remember the brand) of a Bavarian Rye in the commissary at the air base in Oklahoma City.  It was not too shabby for a commercial.

If anyone works out this recipe, I would be eternally grateful.  I would think I had died and gone to Heaven!

Old Camp Cook

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

Countryboy,

Might we be looking for dinklebrot?  I found a site (in German) http://www.chefkoch.de/rezepte/148901065524584,66/Dinkelbrot-einfach.html

The bread appears to be paler than what I remember.  Another German site had oats mixed in and oats on top and I sure don't remember that.

When my mother-in-law in Germany put it on the table, I never asked what it was, just inhaled it!

Might also try roggenbrot.  I will research that a bit, too.

Old Camp Cook

Cooky's picture
Cooky

OCC, I ran that German web page through Google translator, and the results are absoloutely adorable. (and usable too). It sounds a little like a German grandmother of the "What time watch?" school.

 A sample: 

  "Water with salt and the honey into the kneading dish give. The Dinkelmehl on it give and the yeast over it zerbröseln.
The paste with the Küchenmaschine knead, until it separates from the dish. If the paste is water in addition too firmly, still gives, it is too breiig, then some more flour adds."

 

 

"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

And don't you love the language and grammar when you have the page translated??!!

Old Camp Cook

BROTKUNST's picture
BROTKUNST

... and rye is 'Roggen'.

You are basically looking for a 'Roggenbrot' or 'Schwarzbrot' (which translates to 'Blackbread'). Klosterbrot is nothing else then a wholemeal-rye bread ('Roggen-Vollkornbrot') ... it's kind of a trade name that best know  Lieken-Urkorn, one of the more popular bread giants in Germany (see Lieken-Urkorn ).

'Schwarzbrot' is made from equal parts of Wholemeal of wheat and rye, AP flour plus buttermilk, salt and leaven and quite a bit pure sugar cane syrup (equal to one part of the flours!). You'd be shooting for a 60% Hydration. The loaf is gently baked at a very low temperature, about  300F for about three hours (The crust of the loaf may have to be covered after about 1 1/2 hours with Aluminum foil or LaCloche)

BROTKUNST

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

Countryboy,

Good thing I am on lunch hour!

Here is a German site for a sourdough rye.

 http://www.kitchenproject.com/kpboard/recipes/Roggenbrot.htm

It has caraway seeds in it and I don't remember them being in the German bread.

Old Country Boy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

So how do you know if there are no seeds in it?  When you balance the proportions just right, it's hard to tell the flavor exactly but you know when it's missing.  I would at least try them, too little is the same as a weak coffee, yuck.  I would make the mix 1/2 coriander 1/4 Fennel and 1/4 to 1/3 caraway.   Fine grind in coffee mill.   "No guts, no glory!"  Don't tell me you're scared of a few little seeds?  Did you know rye is also a seed?  and so is wheat...  What then is a bread without seeds?   Ha!  Water and yeasty beasties!   :)  -- Mini Oven

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

Mini Oven,

I meant "whole" seeds.  I was NOT into baking when I was stationed in Germany.  I just knew what I liked and that was all German breads. And wurst (ausser blutwurst) and kraut and Sackertort und bier und pommesfrites mit mustard.

And do you drink Fennel tea?

Sorry, can't help but show off a bit!!

Old Camp Cook

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

for settling the stomach.  Fennel tea is good for settling baby's colic too.   Don't mind it at all.    Pommes with mustard huh.... that's new to me...  Upper Austria and Bayern (Bavaria) share many common foods.   I picked up some blood sausage two weeks ago from my neighbor.  She makes very good sausage.  I cut it open before my son's eyes... I explained to him it was already cooked and how to eat it.  He tried it just a few thin cold slices and I put it away.  The next day it was gone, poof, a midnight snack.   I'll have to get some more, it's best fresh. 

Had guests over last night and she caught me quick sniffing my sourdough. I was then lightened of half my starter.  She'd been SDing it for years and I had never known!  :)  -- Mini Oven

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

Mini Oven,

I was married to a German lady for 43 years.  When we first got married, they had blutwurst and I sneaked a piece to my father-in-law's German Shepard.  He turned up his nose.  I figured that if the dog wouldn't eat it, I sure wasn't going to, either!.

I do eat Hirnwurst (brain wurst - which has no brain in it), and most of the other sausages. For the uninitiated, blutwurst (blood sausage) is pork blood with specks of fat put into a hog's stomach ( maw) and then smoked. And I would almost kill for a good authentic bratwurst or rindswurst.

I learned to eat pommes frites (french fries) with mustard when I was stationed in Paris, France.  Do we need to start another thread on french bread, fries, biere and wine???  lol

Old Camp Cook

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Mini,

I have a batch of the formula you posted going now and I powdered the spices as you mentioned above. Also, I made a few calls and found a source for the bread Klosterbrot as mentioned at the head. So I should be able to refine my efforts for Countryboy. Believe it or not it's a 20 minute drive from my home and they have a variety of sizes. CB seems so interested I thought it would be worth a little research.

Eric

pjkobulnicky's picture
pjkobulnicky

 My starter loves to do its work in the fridge overnight.  So ... I'd do the original mix of the dough and kneading, then let it work for an hour and then retard it overnight in the fridge. Then, the next AM, I would shape it cold and let it proof in its form while it warmed up and increased in volume about 75%... maybe 2 hours. I'd bake it at 450F for 10 minutes then down to 400 for the rest of the time 40-60 minutes depending on the size of the loaf. Slash the top diagonally and steam for the first few minutes.

 

I am going ot try it this weekend so I'll let you all know how it turns out. 

 

Paul Kobulnicky

Baking in Ohio

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

Paul,

That sounds great.  Will be waiting for the results.

 

Old Camp Cook

bluezebra's picture
bluezebra

We grew up eating at a deli in Houston named Alfred's Delicatessen. It was owned and run by a German Jew immigrant. They made a seedless "light rye" bread that we ordered by calling it I'd like a "such and such sandwich" on "Jewish Rye" and it would come out on this bread.

Here is a link to a recipe that sounds like what I remember and what you are describing. The addition of caraway seeds is optional in the recipe. See what you think. Good luck! I love this bread!

http://www.cyber-kitchen.com/rfcj/BREAD/Rye_Bread_True_NY_Sour_-_pareve.html

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

BZ,

The Jewish rye I have eaten here is a bit paler than I remember the bread in Germany.  I have a cornmeal Jewish Rye that I bake which is really good.  It is a very heavy bread and I love it with butter and Swiss cheese.

Old Camp Cook

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

BZ,

I went to that site you mentioned and it looks a lot like the recipe I use.  I grind the seeds for the dough and I also sprinkle whole seeds on the dough.  I love caraway, so it is NOT optional when I bake it.

Old Camp Cook

pjkobulnicky's picture
pjkobulnicky

I forgot to comment about malt.  You can use powdered malt or malt extract. The extract is a bit like corn syrup only it would be barley malt syrup. That may be the original source of a bit of sweet. In either case, natural yeasts are stimulated by a bit of malt. I'd put a Tbsp in a 2-3 pound loaf. The malt itself hardly affects the taste. 

 

Paul Kobulnicky

Baking in Ohio

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

oh and sometimes I'd throw in a little backstrap molasses instead of sugar, just a couple of tablespoons or so...everybody's got to have a secret...and the bread will also darken. --Mini Oven

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

One of the secrets of German bakers is that they don't use molasses.  Or coffee.

The crust darkens naturally through the maillard reactions. 

There is a good discussion of this at Samartha's web page at http://www.samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/index.html

This isn't to say that adding molasses to rye bread is bad, just that it isn't authenticly German and that it isn't necessary.

Mike

 

jkandell's picture
jkandell

Just a quick note to back up Mike's comment: german breads don't darken with molasses or coffee, but through a natural "maillard reaction".  This is just a fancy term for a type of carmelization that happens when you bake sourdough ryes at a low heat for long periods of time.  (Bread equivalent of bbq?)  The lower the heat and longer the time the "browner" the bread.  Pumpernickel, one of the darkest, is baked the longest of all, I believe.   It produces that wonderful "sweet-sour" flavor essential to many german breads. 


A good "basic" bread to practice with is Maggie Glezer's Volkornbrot in her Artisan Baking.  It's a "medium dark" german rye bread.


Not to criticize molasses!  I use that extensively when baking scandanavian style breads.  But not much in german style rye breads.

Wyatt's picture
Wyatt

Germans may not use malt extract in bread but they do make bread with a portion of the grist mashed which produces malt extract from the starches already in the flour, good pumpernickel is almost always mashed for example

 

I bet that Lithuanian bread is also mashed and my whole rye starter smells a lot like apples when fully ripe

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

I especially love Old Camp Cook's comment: "If anyone works out this recipe, I would be eternally grateful.  I would think I had died and gone to Heaven!"  It expresses so beautifully what I believe as well.  Peter Reinhart writes about bread the same way.  Once you taste this stuff you realize the quiet elegance of the subtle taste and texture just is not like anything else. 

thanks, countryboy

weavershouse's picture
weavershouse

I hope it happens. I do love my NYT rye bread but I'm up to trying other old world ways with rye. I think I might have tasted the Klosterbrot at a friends house a couple of weeks ago and liked it a lot. I kept reading the ingredients on the package to try and remember them. The bread had a very nice taste with a hint of sweet. The ingredients listed sourdough as the first ing. then (I think) rye, wheat, salt and I don't think anything else. No hint of a sweetner. I wondered if the sourdough had a sugar or if they found a way to get the dough to ferment with a taste of sweet, a very subtle sweet. Next week I'll be going back up to the old world meat store where they sold the bread so I'll pick some up and try to figure it out. The meat store, by the way, had some of the best homemade lunchmeats and sausages I've had since I was a kid. All the real thing. Where are all those stores now to save us from the stuff that's passed off on us now. We can't make everything on our own. This bread obsession takes up enough of my time :O)

Countryboy, do you know the ingredients on the package of your Klosterbrot?
I sure hope some of you folks post some rye breads for all of us to try. Thanks for this post.                       weavershouse

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I have a batch in bulk ferment as we speak. :>) I decided to use a blend of the spices that Mini-oven suggested in her post about farmers rye. I only ground up and added 1 T of the blend for starters since I read there were no seeds. I'll post the results later tomorrow.

Eric

Oldcampcook's picture
Oldcampcook

Eric,

Details, details, details.  As soon as possible, please.  I am hungering for it!!!!

Old Camp Cook

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Go Eric! You are putting us all to shame!  Actually I believe that this project requires someone with your level of expertise to analyze just how to duplicate the Klosterbrot quality.  I really don't think this project is for a newbie like me. They probably list some of the ingredients on the package and then leave off others. Speaking frankly I am of the opinion of weaverhouse who said: "We can't make everything on our own." I apologize if that sounds less than supportive but I believe this bread is quite frankly like the formula for Coca Cola and that people would be foolish to spread the recipe around. However if it can be duplicated I am sure you folks here  are the ones who can do it. thanks, countryboy

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Countryboy,

You need to click on my author link and see when I joined this site. "Member since" If I'm ahead of you in skills it's only by a few mistakes trust me.  I do get focused and obsessive when I think I see a worthwhile project like this one. There are plenty more experienced bakers who are reading and watching and haven't commented yet. That's actually a good thing because if we can develop a starter recipe, somebody like jmonkey or Floyd or Mini-O or Bill will be the ones to tune this right. But thanks for your confidence, I have three test batches going and tomorrow at 8: I'm going to pick up a 2 pound-er of Klosterbrot from a German meat market near here.

Eric

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Eric, anyone who can bake for the masses the way you did in the Upper peninsula of Michigan has to know what he is doing.

When you try out the Klosterbrot may I suggest that you not look for lots of big holes as in some of the French and Italian bread.  I believe the lightness, subtley, cool, creamy crumb together with the soft chewy crust is very foreign to the American palette and possibly therefore a disappointment.  My wife's father, the German baker, introduced me to a whole new Way of experiencing food.  He would bake things without all the sugar that Americans usually use and thereby go for a more natural taste.  My wife has likewise thru her baking shown me how most American bakeries just load up on the sugar and lose touch with what baking used to be. Maybe people have trained their taste buds for one thing and forgotten about other possibilities. 

But then again everyone has their own tastes and to each his own. for me a pleasure shared is a pleasure doubled so I hope it is worth your effort.

I would be interested to hear what MiniOven says about baking in Austria and Germany. Is it of a higher as I imagine it or is my experience just isolated and anecdotal and just more like American stuff. The comments of Old Camp Cook suggests it can be quite nice. 

thanks, countryboy

Susan's picture
Susan

for the results!

Susan from San Diego

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I'm hoping that I will appreciate the subtle differences between this Canadian bakers products and what I have been making. I'm waiting now for the long bulk ferment so I can get a taste of the spices (or lack of) and compare it to the real deal. I'm hoping to be able to identify the taste components and then find a method to produce the proper crumb. Without the original bread to compare against this would be impossible.

Eric

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Countryboy, I don't like to brag but Austria has a lot of great secrets and we love our food, wine, etc. I suggest visiting us, you will be more than delighted. I really enjoy buying and eating baked bread here. The chickens also get the left over bread so the eggs taste great too. Pork meat is exceptional here as well and it could also be they eat lots of rye. When I compare my food ingredients to China, I must say I am so relieved to know where my Austrian food originates and that the quality is high. I know my money goes into inspection and quality control.

As an artist, a rye field is like no other (and each grain in turn is unique): Rye has the stem color of wheat (blue-green) but the heads are yellow-green and fuzzy. Wind blowing across the field creates such variations of green, exceptional waves of color, I just enjoy my dog walks. My raspberries are getting ripe.

I will say that the Germans come to Austria to eat well, The Austrians themsleves, like to head for the ocean beaches. When I was first married, my husband arranged that each one of the Austrian ladies in our "camp" should teach me how to cook an authentic meal and in turn learn the English names of ingredients. Actually not a bad way to get to know the ladies and learn some German. Each day of the week, a different meal. Everyone happy. It wasn't until later, I found out that my "American Kitchen" was making him ill. Meals were too mixed up with sweets and desserts too salty. He never voiced his complaints (typical Austrian) and living with my Inlaws honed my skills. Austrians "eat out" often and get their money's worth. It can be quite funny at times when I'm stateside: my father wants me to cook for him and I want him to cook for me. I quess I never really learned to cook until I had to cook for someone else. It is an ongoing process. Mini Oven

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

that so much for describing the culinary delights of where you are living. So judging from your comments I gather that the bread and food in Austria really is as excellent as I imagined and as Old Camp Cook and others have said. Apparently our responses are not just the sharing of subjective and annecdotal experiences but rather pointing out some very high quality baking and cooking that for some reason does not get discussed in the American media. 

America, like this forum, is big on French and Italian cooking and restaurants.  Somehow the Austrian and German baking and cooking seems to be discussed only in passing.  

MiniOven if you ever find out  a way to simplify the detmold sourdough 3 stage methodology by all means let us know.  It is discribed in the Hammelman book and is I believe truly prohibitive in complexity.

 thanks, countryboy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

My forefathers came from Lilli-Detmold and I heard my great grandmother made excellent bread.

OK guys, you can jump up and down now... I just ordered the book and should be here in 3 weeks. -- Mini Oven

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

I know that anyone who can bake what you do among the rice paddies of rural China while balancing a PC on your lap can do anything.  However, as a novice, I confess I find the detmold methodology "truly prohibitive in complexity" and feel bad if you buy the Hamelman book because of my comments. If I were to say anything I would ask you not to buy it based on my suggestion.  It ain't cheap but I am told I will get a copy for my birthday in July.

 countryboy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

only to tell of it's secrets.   I'm a big girl.  Let me do this.  I've been curious for a long time now and now I will know what people are talking about.   It was only a matter of time before I went shopping.   I just hope I ordered the right one.  Mini Oven

sphealey's picture
sphealey

=== detmold sourdough 3 stage methodology by all means let us know. It is discribed in the Hammelman book and is I believe truly prohibitive in complexity. ====

That is why I suggested the multi-step program above. I am actually trying my first Detmold-type recipe (it will probably be about 45% rye since I need a bit more rise for my weekly sandwich bread) this weekend. Having gone through the straight dough rye and then the basic sourdough rye I re-read the Hammelman Detmold recipes and no longer find them intimidating.

sPh

BROTKUNST's picture
BROTKUNST

I posted this information earlier in this thread but I think it's getting lost there ... it's potentially some useful information for those of you who want to try to bake the 'Klosterbrot' :

 

You are basically looking for a 'Roggenbrot' or 'Schwarzbrot' (which translates to 'Blackbread'). Klosterbrot is nothing else then a wholemeal-rye bread ('Roggen-Vollkornbrot') ... it's kind of a trade name that best know Lieken-Urkorn, one of the more popular bread giants in Germany (see Lieken-Urkorn ).

'Schwarzbrot' is made from equal parts of Wholemeal of wheat and rye, AP flour plus buttermilk, salt and leaven and quite a bit pure sugar cane syrup (equal to one part of the flours!). You'd be shooting for a 60% Hydration. The loaf is gently baked at a very low temperature, about 300F for about three hours (The crust of the loaf may have to be covered after about 1 1/2 hours with Aluminum foil or LaCloche)

 

BROTKUNST

 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Can you clarify the proportions a little bit for me please? I think you are saying equal parts of Whole Wheat/Rye/AP flours and 33% of the flour total in sugar cane syrup. I wonder if that is anything like cayro syrup? I have access to Black Rye flour, is there anything else to make a "Black" bread? There is a seed that is added for a Russian Black bread I can't recall the name off hand. I seem to recall seeing coffee also to darken the dough.??

Thanks for the assist,

Eric

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

You said

You are basically looking for a 'Roggenbrot' or 'Schwarzbrot' (which translates to 'Blackbread').

I am not sure if I misunderstand you but for the record this Klosterbrot bread I refer to does not appear black, dark brown, or light brown.  It appears white.

countryboy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Countryboy, I thought you were after a rye bread, sorry, got confused. White that tastes of rye and creamy...thats my Austrian rye starter in white flour! You want Austrian SD! That makes sense.

Here was my first impression: just plain, and simply bit into it. Wow.... If I didn't know it was made from only white flour, I would swear it was anything but white, very nutty, with hints of rye. I didn't add any spices. I wanted to taste just the sourdough. Also good with cream cheese. And sour. My "not so thrilled about sourdough" husband loved it and kept asking for more. It really is incredible.So when I compare my starters, the others fall far behind.

So now what? Maintain an Austrian sourdough with rye and wheat and use in a white bread recipe. Simple enough.   Does that shed any light on the detmold 3 stage method?  Is it used to maintain a rye starter then reduce the rye for starter use in white bread?    --Mini Oven

pjkobulnicky's picture
pjkobulnicky

I made a basic rye this weekend using natural starter, a 50-50 blend of rye and AP flours and 60% hydration. It also had a T of malt extract in it.

It was not Bavarian rye. It was a very good rye but it was not the soft'ish dark brown crust, latte colored fine textured crumb that defines the generic bavarian rye type. After reading later posts by Brotkunst and others, I now think that there is a bit of sugar and a bit of fat in Bavarian ryes.

I am off to Canada for a day this week where I will stop in Deningers (Hamilton) for some German meats. There I will seek information from the very German staff who always seem to know answers to important food questions. 

 

Paul Kobulnicky

Baking in Ohio

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Country Boy Mini et al:

Sorry if this took longer than I expected. Over the weekend I baked 3 batches of some kind of Rye bread using an assortment of formulas.

My first batch was the Farmers Rye Bread post from Mini-Oven that included the blend of crushed fennel. coriander and caraway. To be honest this batch fell and was ugly after final proof in a linen lined basket. It was useful for taste comparisons only. The spice blend was evident in the crumb but not in an obvious way, just something subtle that enhanced the aroma. I'm sure that the failure of the bread structure was from my not establishing a good gluten structure. Not enough kneading and stretching allowed the gas to escape.

The second batch was from a post of the book "Secrets of a Jewish Baker". I tried to follow the 3 step starter procedure to the letter since it seemed like it might impact the sourness of the end product. It is interesting that many of the formula I looked at included a sourdough starter derived from active dry or fresh yeast and not an old starter kept and fed like what I consider the traditional method. Keep in mind these folks have been raising flour for thousands of years before the natural dry yeast industry hatched into being so I don't know what to think. Anyway, the starter starts with 1/2 C Rye flour, 1/8 teaspoon of active dry yeast, 1 Cup warm water, 1 Tablespoon crushed caraway seed, 1 teaspoon minced onion. The onion is supposed to hasten fermentation and enhance flavor according to the author. This is a 3 step process, each of which end with dusting the top of the newly mixed starter with a layer of rye flour. After it has risen, the top is cracked and looks like lava when it hardens. The final dough also includes a package of active dry yeast and 3 Cups of "Rye Sour".

On this and test #3 I am dedicated to establishing a well developed gluten structure and I am done with the banetton. This bread is sold all over Europe and Canada as a free form or panned bread. So, I kneaded and added lots of flour until it finally developed some elasticity, then I did 2 stretch and folds just to be sure! Boy this is hard work. I'm starting to get those rock hard shoulders jmonkey talked about.

I free formed the boule and tightened it as best I could and set it in the oven with a cup of very hot water to provide moisture. It had grown to nearly double in 40 minutes so I made on slash along the girth and turned on the oven to 375F and set the timer for 1 hour. I did my usual steam for the first 10 minutes and removed the vent block from my electric oven. This is a +- 4 pound loaf of dense dough and it took the entire hour to get to 200F internal. I did not do the cornstarch brushing before and after baking but opted to use water as an alternative as suggested.

The seeds all fell off the top as you can See in the image and there was a decent oven spring. The top did tear a little as was evident before baking. I think the dough wasn't completely bonded after adding so much flour during kneading, there was some stratified layers from the knead/flour/fold process. (a pilots view of the world as it relates to cloud formations)

In summary: I posted a side by side comparison of the bread I made and the bread made by Dimpflmeier in Toronto called Klosterbrot. Mini's post above I think accurately describes the red herring that hunting for a generic term in specificity is :>) The slice that has been cut on two surfaces is my loaf, the other is what started this discussion.

There is only 1 image of the Bread from Toronto bakery and that is the side by side shot. Everything else is my work. I'm not sure this is an accurate sampling of the Klosterbrot bread since the bread I bought was at least 5 days old when I bought it. All of the German breads were hard both and on the inside. These breads are nothing like what I am familiar with. I believe Brotkunst suggested evaluating German Rye's will require a change in perspective. I would say that's a rather massive understatement..

On smell: Country Boy mentioned a "subtle in taste, quiet, cool, creamy, with a soft chewy crust" and I was hoping that my test product would smell something remotely similar to the original. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth. The Klosterbot has a very unique I think cheesy aroma. I am going to have my wife and her friend sample this and tell me what they think is in it. I almost want to say somewhere between parmesan and Swiss cheese. This is not an aroma i have ever smelled in bread. It is unique but since we are all friends here and I know you won't repeat this, I didn't care for it. I did like the Jewish Rye that I made and so did everyone that had it at dinner. I know there are acquired tastes and the test was done on old bread so maybe it isn't a fair comparison but after all they are selling these bricks and shipping them all over the place with no baked on date or best if used by date.

I see that Cooky ordered some from the Toronto bakery so maybe she will have a better experience. I don't know what a person could add to make the bread taste like cheese other than cheese. I'm going to bake the second batch of the Jewish Rye later today in which I omitted the caraway and kept the onion.

One last thought here. Some of the German breads I have tasted over the years have a compressed quality to them. They have extremely good flavor but are somewhat "waxy" not really wax but the thin pre sliced pieces beg for cream cheese and salmon and capers, more like an appetizer, open face in small cocktail size snacks. This is a refined product that is unlike bread as I have come to know it. I saw some yesterday that had almost no (zero) air holes in it. Very firm small squares of wheat based oven baked delicacy. The Klosterbrot isn't one of these but it was made by a place who knows how to do it, if you know what I mean.

Top is Klosterbrot, Bottom is my Jewish rye.

Jewish Rye made with 3 cups Rye Sour at ~80% hydration and 5 Cups AP

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

countryboy

carmody's picture
carmody

(previous message was wiped out by system)

Cooky's picture
Cooky

Great test run!  Can't wait till my rye starter is grown up enough to try it myself.

 

"I am not a cook. But I am sorta cooky."

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Eric,
> you certainly did a very thorough job and provided a comprehensive
> analysis of the results.  And yes we all agree with Mini that
> Klosterbrot is generic in the sense that anyone could use the term
and
> there is probably no set recipie for same.

> Please note that you are a couple of steps ahead of me when you
> mention that
>
>     "On smell: Country Boy mentioned a "subtle in taste, quiet, cool,
>     creamy, with a soft chewy crust" and I was hoping that my test
>     product would smell something remotely similar to the original. '
>
> I must confess I have no sense of smell, quite literally, and so am
> not able to discuss or evaluate based on that particular aspect.

> It seems from your researches that this whole subject is more one
> of an on going research trial and error project that can go on for
> years rather than one that can be nailed down with the results of a
> few experiments.

>  Thanks again for sharing the results of your extensive hard work.
> cb

 thanks,

countryboy

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Countryboy,

I just went back and looked at this thread and re-read where you describe what a soft and unique "taste" this bread has. Now in the post above you say "I must confess I have no sense of smell, quite literally, and so am not able to discuss or evaluate based on that particular aspect." From what I know about the connection between smell and taste, you must be a medical miracle.

I have a pretty good sniffer countryboy and right now I'm getting a hint of fish.

Eric

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Eric, I can't complement you enough for your baking and pics. I have a question about your rye flour available. Is your rye flour fine, like regular AP wheat only darker and heavier or does it have larger pieces of bran in it? I suspect we have two very different flours.  Mini Oven

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

Mini Oven asked:

I have a question about your rye flour available. Is your rye flour fine, like regular AP wheat only darker and heavier or does it have larger pieces of bran in it? I suspect we have two very different flours.

In Germany, there are a wide range of rye flours. In the USA, there are typically four. The Germans rate and label their flours by the amount of ash, or mineral, content in them. This is a great indicator of the amount of flavor in the breads that will be made with the flours.

 

The three USA ryes are:

Light rye which is the rye equivalent of white wheat flour

Medium rye which is between a dark and light rye both in taste and color.

Dark rye which varies from mill to mill. In some mills, it is a whole rye, in others it is more like the rye version of common or first clear flour. That is, it's what is left over after the light rye parts have been removed.

Whole rye this is a whole rye flour.

As you move from light to medium to whole rye, the flour gets darker and more flavorful, and you get less rise. You can substitue these flours for one another, adjusting the quiquid a bit as the darker flours absorb more water. You will lose rise, but that's not so important with rye.

Mike

 

sphealey's picture
sphealey

> in the USA, there are typically four.

However, unlike Germany the names of these flours are not standardized either by law or by custom. Therefore you have to take into account the suppliers as well. For example, King Arthur has a flour called "pumpernickel" that I believe would be classified as a coarse dark rye in Germany. Bob's Red Mill's "pumpernickel" is a finer version of its cracked rye and I think is closer to the German pumpernickel classification.

So, even if you are only using the major suppliers you can still get a wider variety by trying different ones. And that doesn't take into account the smaller local mills listed in _Bread Alone_ and RLB's _Bread Bible_.

sPh

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Hi Mini, The rye flour that I used for this was Hodgson Mills whole grain Rye. It isn't as fine as any AP flour and does have small pieces in it. I was thinking about grain quality also so I bought some from the bulk bin in the health food section also. When I got home I checked side by side I couldn't tell them apart.

I have always thought one of the interesting things about white whole wheat is that it is ground so fine. Is yours ground like AP?

The whole thing with the fineness of the grind is a little mystical to me. Now that I know we have an expert from the high mountain lurking (Tod) I'm enjoying listening to his advice.

Cheers,

Eric

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I was suspecting that we two had two different flours.  Rye here comes in so many varieties but the one sold on the shelf in most super markets is very fine, whole, no visable graham, and powdery like AP wheat flour but darker.  The color of the crumb is then a saturated light brown with no specks.   Interesting....   What does our lurker have to say, does fine ground behave differently?     Mini Oven

Mike Avery's picture
Mike Avery

Two weeks ago I took a 1 1/2 day seminar with Jeff Hammelman on rye breads, so I'll throw in some comments.

The Detmolder process is not necessary.  Jeff said he felt it was the result of the cereal institute in Detmolder formalizing and codifying what bakers had been doing by hunch, instinct or zen for centuries.  When he did the Detmolder rye, he didn't fret about exact amounts or temperature control that much.  "It's a bit warm today, so we'll use a bit less of the seed culture than we otherwise would."  "The bakery is warm, so let's put the bucket of starter on the floor to keep it cooler - if the bakery were cooler, I'd move the bucket closer to the oven.  It doesn't have to be exact."

 The Detmiolder process does give you a very balanced starter with good yeast activity, and a good balance of acetic and lactic acidity.

It's a technique well worth learning.  You can find out more about it at Samartha's web page.  http://www.samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/index.html

 

Mike

 

PMcCool's picture
PMcCool

While noodling around on the net, I came across this Russian sourdough rye bread:

http://www.westonaprice.org/foodfeatures/sourdough-rye-bread.html

Haven't tried it yet, so can't make any recommendation or critique.  The process looks interesting, though, as well as the fact that it is almost a 100% rye.

PMcCool

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

it should work.  The times look correct.  Only two comments in 4 years!  Sounds sound.


Mini

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

(without kamut: I have an incurable allergy to trademarks) every time falling in love with it more and more. It's the first totally satisfying rye bread that I ever made and it's the one that introduced me to the zavarka thing.


 


Countryboy: I realize that this thread is very old, but there's absolutely nothing intimidating in the Detmolder process. The only difficult thing is maintaining the temperatures at the right levels, but the process is just straightforward. The resulting bread has really something more in its flavor.

jkandell's picture
jkandell

Any tipcs Nico about "maintaining the temperatures at the right levels"?

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

I called Dimpflmeier and they say the recipe ingredients are:

  1. Enriched wheat flour
  2. Spring water
  3. Rye flour
  4. Sourdough
  5. Salt
  6. Yeast
  7. Dry culture whey

cb

CountryBoy's picture
CountryBoy

Whey is the byproduct of cheese making and can be used in powdered or liquid form. A dairy by-product (from making cheese), rich in protein, minerals and milk sugar. Aids in browning, adds nutrition, adds flavor and slightly sweetens. Good for promoting beneficial bacteria in colon (like yogurt). Use ½ cup powdered to any recipe. Some people use 1-cup liquid whey to replace water in a 4-loaf recipe.

cb