The Fresh Loaf

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Simple guide to panettone cases?

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Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Simple guide to panettone cases?

Hi All,


I am hoping to do my first panettone this year. Am just gathering together the gear and the fruits and flour for a test run.


I hope to be able to buy panettone cases or make something a bit like them. They are very rare here in the UK, though. Have seen them online at Bakery Bits and other sites but not in the flesh.


I have a very basic question of anyone who has used them, before I end up with the wrong size. What do I need for 500g of dough?


I am hoping to make panettone with that weight pre baking. Do cases that say they are for 500g have a 500g capacity when full or do they in fact have a larger capacity allowing an initial 500g of dough that starts off halfway up the case to end up over the top when baked? 


If 500g is the full load after expansion, do I start with 250g lower down the case? If case dimensions are inches or centimetres does anyone know what size would be good for a 500g loaf?


Sorry, I know these are really simple questions. I have had some great Italian panettone from the shops but have never seen the cases in my tiny life :-) I can't just pop into the shop and get 'em or have a good look at 'em and I don't want to risk ordering a run of something online that turns out not to be right.


Thanks for your help, fellow festive TFLers.


Kind regards, Daisy_A

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

I bought the 134mm pannetone cases from bakery bits, said to be suitable for 500g of dough. Unfortunately, my first attempt at pannetone, using Carol Field's recipe from The Italian Baker, wasn't entirely successful. I left the dough proving overnight the night the big freeze hit us here in the UK and it didn't rise at all, I guess due to the butter solidifying (the recipe suggests an overnight proof temp 18-20c which was never going to happen, freeze or no). I carried on regardless, the final dough going into the cases 18hrs after first mixing; the dough (weight 4x540g) filled the cases by 1/4 to a 1/3rd. I baked them after another 8hrs although they hadn't risen much more; after baking the cases were about half full. They tasted great though. I think with the correct proofing temperature there's a good chance the dough will rise to the top of the case and bake into a dome above that. I'm hoping to give it another go this weekend, probably doing the shorter (daytime) proof method, or using a different recipe using a biga.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi sgratch,


Good to hear from you! I guess we are in the same boat then as first time panettone makers.


Thanks for the information on the Bakery Bits cases. Those are the ones on my wishlist so it's good to know how they work.


Yes the big freeze made a massive difference, didn't it? Sent my starters into a slump. I had to put them on a water dish to wake them up.


If you panettone tasted good that is the main thing :-).


Wishing you good baking this weekend! 


Best wishes, Daisy_A

clazar123's picture
clazar123

I made my first batch of pannetone and did not have pannetone papers. I would have had to order them and just didn't plan it in time for the bake. I was going to bake smaller,individual loaves. SO,I took a walk down the canned vegetable aisle at the grocery store and decided the tins of mandarin oranges would do for the small loaves and the tins of sliced water chestnuts were perfect for the next size up. I bought 6 water chestnut cans and 8 mandarin orange cans.( I'm trying to come up with imaginative menu ideas now for oranges and water chestnuts!) I cut a large square of parchment paper and fit it into the can by laying the paper over the top of the can,centering the paper over the opening, and then using a slightly smaller can to jam it into the can.Make sure the folds are all tightly pressed and smooth.Spray it with pan release and I was ready to bake.


I used floydm's pannetone recipe on the home page of FreshLoaf-just click on the picture. See my comments in the thread. I thought the amounts of fruit may have been too much-it was more like fruitcake than fruited bread. I would decrease the fruit by half to 2/3!. I think because the dough is rich and there is so much fruit, it does take a long time to rise anyways.I finally put mine in the refrigerator overnight and then shaped it the next morning. Then it took 8 hours to proof once it was in the "pans" and while it didn't raise much, it was adequate. Even tho they are much more dense with fruit than I thought they should be, they were very delicious.


So look around and see if you have any "pannetone pans" in the cupboard!Tins with no ridges and no lining  are best.Use whatever size you want and fill it 2/3 to 3/4 full. The parchment paper should be cut in a square that is the diameter of the "pan" plus 3 times the height of the can. SO a can with a 4 inch diameter and a height of 3 inches would need a square parchment of 4 inches plus (3x3in)=13 inches. 


Have fun!


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi clazar123,


Many thanks for your message and giving such a detailed response! I can get the picture of what you did with the tins. Sounds good. Were you able to put the goods in the freezer?


I had read you could use coffee tins. We have Illy which are well moulded but they used to have a really sharp lip on them that would cut your finger. Someone must have mentioned this to them as they have rounded it off. Had a burst of creativity and started moulding a case on the outside of the tin, based on an Ehow page. Brought back memories of childhood cutting and sticking! Will see how that goes. However I can see that using the tin itself would give even more suppport.


Thanks for giving such a clear guide about what size paper to use - appreciate it!


Best wishes, Daisy_A

SylviaH's picture
SylviaH

Have you seen the paper bags over at wildyeastblog  she made to use for her pannetone molds...in recipes.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Sylvia,


Thanks for this. What Susan did looks good. Particularly when the panettone are all tied up with ribbon.


I had a go at the origami basket. Came out well and I am currently using it to store things in. 


Might try this for a low cake but I would like to make some high ones also. Thanks for the link.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Daisy,


my rule of thumb is this: the amount of dough fit for a given paper is (in kg)


weight = 1.15*(volume of paper/3)


maybe even 1.20. Panettones seem to be a very irregular bake: you can do it 30 times with the same recipe and procedure and still get 30 very different results. For sure it's absolutely the most challenging sweet dough to make (among italian cakes, at least), even worse than pandoro (that requires lamination).


Generally I use 900 gr of dough + 250 of fruits in a 3 litres paper.


 


Usually I soak the raisins overnight in a blend of water with some limoncello, then drain and dry them in a towel. This method (although not at all traditional) results in a wonderfully aromatic panettone!

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi nico,


Thanks for your message! It is really useful to have a basic formula that I could approach different size cases with. 


We have limoncello - yeah! Absolutely one of my favourite liqueurs. We also have a wonderful aromatic grappa, orange flower water, vanilla bean and some lovely candied peel. So good to go on the aromatics :-). 


Take your point about the challenges of panettone. Am doing a 'Beta' version. However, from what you say if they come out differently every time I won't necessarily be able to reproduce what I do on the test. Will probably give a report but won't parade it if it's not pretty! Am most concerned about try to mix this by hand. Any tips on hand mixing received gratefully. We shall see...


Appreciate your advice. Best wishes, Daisy_A


 

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Daisy, you need a super high gluten flour to make panettone, absolutely the strongest you can get. Flours for this kind of dough are very specific and hard to get unless you are a professionist baker. With flours available to the public the dough will come out super sticky and very difficult to work by hand. I made it several times slamming repeatedly the dough on the buttered surface, but every time it took me more than 1 hour and  a lot of patience. You had better get a kneading machine:-)

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi nico,


Thanks for the advice. I read 'Manitoba' in the Italian recipes and I have an all-Canadian strong white. Have tried it on a dough ball and it is super strong.


Some recipes are 100% Manitoba, some are cut with 00 though. I was thinking 66% Canadian 33% 00 as 100% 00 seems a bit tough for the yeasts. What proportions do you think?


Kneading machine? I wish. Will have to see what I can beg, borrow or steal. LOL. Maybe there are some secret kneaders around my neighbourhood. There is a community house where they have to cook for large groups. Wouldn't want to leave them short of bread, though, while I knead my hand made panettones...


Appreciate all the advice.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Daisy, these last two years I made literally dozens of panettone and every time I used 00 flour I repented my choice. Italian flours are very very weak, they don't hold a long fermentation and they don't develop a strong gluten. In short they are garbage. I'd use all manitoba/strong flour for this kind of dough, especially if you choose one of those recipes with a lot of butter and yolks and little flour. The recipe I linked in the "Colomba" thread is very forgiving and somewhat  "light", but generally panettone requires many more fats and less flour than that: it's not uncommon seeing something like 180 gr of butter, 140 of yolks, 120 of sugar for only 300 gr of flour.


Simili sisters' recipe is light, too, but I find it less tasty.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Will put Canadian to lead horse, then :-). Best wishes, Daisy_A

breadsong's picture
breadsong

Hello nicodvb, what a great idea - Limoncello-soaked raisins for panettone!
I can't wait to try that. 
Thanks too for the weight to volume calculation, and for your post here, regarding rising volume: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/21019/pannetone-can#comment-146812
So incredibly helpful!  Thanks so much!


Daisy_A, I hope all is going well with your panettone!


Regards, breadsong


 


 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Daisy_A,


I reckon the 134mm cases should take about 500g of Panettone dough.


We bake these in 5" cake hoops in College.   I think our scaling weight for this, slightly small size, is 400g.


Hope this helps


Best wishes


Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Andy,


Thanks for your message. Useful to know what dough fits which volume case.


Haven't lashed for cases yet, although the 134mm appeal for a larger amount. Have managed to mould one of similar volume but slightly taller and thinner round the outside of a coffee can, just to do a test run. Wonder if taller and thinner would bake out differently? Might make two more shorter ones for 250g each.


Am woefully short of equipment for baking sweet goods. Have a cake hoop but think it is a bit bigger. Thanks for that possibility. Had read that the cases had a perforated bottom. Do these bake out okay in metal. Had seen some metal panettone moulds. I have rounded metal steamed sponge and jelly moulds. 


Just a question about the sponge in the panettone formula you sent. If I do not have old sponge and am starting a 100% sponge from scratch, how much percent fresh yeast would I use and how long approximately would I let it mature or what signs of maturity would I look for? 


Any tips on hand mixing enriched doughs also gratefully received.


Hope all is good where you are. Is a bit brighter here, tho' still cold.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Daisy_A,


I'll have to pm you on these matters.   Will try to get back to you before the weekend starts


BW


Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Just if you have time. Look forward to hearing from you.


Won't be starting right away as snowed under with work. Just gathering gear and info. at the moment. Appreciate all your help.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

turosdolci's picture
turosdolci

I have a recipe and a link where you can buy the paper cups.  I would also say that  the fruit is really the ingredient that gives Panettone its unique flavor.


http://turosdolci.wordpress.com/2009/10/19/panettone-a-traditional-sweet-bread-is-a-symbol-of-christmas-greetings/


I make it all the time and use leftovers to make bread pudding which I will post within the next few weeks.  


Best of Luck, as these make great gifts and also freeze well.


 


Regards,


Patricia

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Patricia,


Thanks for this. I'm glad to have a recipe from such an experienced baker.


Thanks for the link. I wish I could buy from Fantes - that would be great! Not sure if it's viable to the UK. Thanks for the recommendation, though.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

turosdolci's picture
turosdolci

Panettone, 


I use 00 which I buy in Italy.  I also buy my paper cups from a supplier in Switzerland but he doesn't ship. It is very important to get the right cups because the paper is oiled and helps to keep the panettone fresh for a long time. I'm sure you have searched the web in the UK, and I'm sorry i didn't realize that is where you lived.  Try bakery supply sites, they sometimes carry them especially this time of year and there are so many good Italian restaurants and cafe's in the UK. If you still can't find them, I can give you the name of the supplier I have in Switzerland, his wife speaks English and you can ask if they can ship them to you.


Regards,


Patricia 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Patricia,


Thanks for the message. No problem about UK location. I do have 00 flour, an organic one imported from Italy. I can also get the proper cups at Bakery Bits in the UK. Will look at some Swedish sites also, though, as they do seem to be very good for baking. Zeb just put me onto a Swedish shop in London, which has pearl sugar, which is very difficult to get here, but no moulds, sadly.


Am just trying parchment for this test run in case I haven't got the touch. Am only just getting into sweet baking. Have made a sort of paper case out of parchment moulded around a coffee tin just to see if I can make the thing at all! Have pierced the bottom of the parchment with a corn fork as I read that the bottom of the bought cases is perforated to prevent build up of humidity.


Would like to use the proper cases for gifts and it is good to know that about the oil. Thank you. If the test run goes right I hope to make some more nearer Christmas. 


Thanks for all your advice. Much appreciated.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

Hi Daisy


The cases are perforated all over, but so small you can only see them if you hold them up to the light.


There's a great thread on Pannetone here http://www.thefreshloaf.com/recipes/panettone#comment-146890 including some great videos (I'm sure you've seen this already, but just in case).


Just trying to work out a baking schedule for the weekend & whether to try the same pannetone recipe again or adapt it to a sourdough or try another recipe entirely! Decisions, decisions...


Happy baking


Geraint


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Will belabour it all over with the corn fork, then! Thanks for the information.


Thanks for the link. Will go through it again as I'm not sure I have followed up all of the videos. Find that seeing an image and seeing bakers in action does help. 


Here's a great one on sourdough focaccia Genovese, if you can take the bells, which I assume are from a famous church?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ou5jCZmk9M


Wishing you a good weekend's baking.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint,


Just a question that I thought of afterwards. When using the cases do you need to put them on a tray or straight onto the oven rack?


Thanks, Daisy_A

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

I used a tray, but the bases are slightly corrugated underneath & quite sturdy, so would probably be fine straight onto rack.


Good luck with your trial run!


Geraint


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Thanks Geraint! My prototype case is a home made 'Blue Peter' version of card and parchment so probably go with the tray.


Thanks for your advice and good wishes - hope your baking goes well too!


Daisy_A

kateq's picture
kateq

I love the limoncello idea -- and happily have a lot of it.  While I know this doesn't help in the UK, Sur La Table carries various sizes of the paper molds in their stores and on line. 

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

It's 2am & I've just finished mixing the second dough for overnight proof. I definitely need to put a mixer on my Christmas wishlist!


I decided to go with Carol Field's recipe again, but have altered the method, holding back on additions until the gluten is well developed, for instance.


I'm also soaking the fruit (raisins & mixed peel) in marsala (just brought to boil) overnight.


It's a lot warmer this weekend than my previous attempt, so fingers crossed the dough will have trebled as it's supposed to by morning.


I'd be interested in knowing what advice Andy gave you, Daisy. The Carol Field sponge uses 18g fresh yeast (recipe makes approx 2kg dough) and matures in 1/2 an hour or so. And there's another 18g in the First Dough. I used 6g Dove's Farm Quick Yeast in the sponge & First Dough.


Happy weekend baking everyone.


Geraint

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint,


Have responded. I was also up at 2am! Found air kneading did the trick for incorporating butter and eggs in first dough.


Dough is meant to treble? Will look out for that.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

What recipe are you using Daisy?

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint,


Sorry for delay. Have been nursing my panettone all day! Just rising now prior to baking.


I am using a Italian Milenese natural leaven formula among those recommended by nico, with some additional fresh yeast. Dough quadrupled overnight! Was worried it had gone over but seems firm. Fingers crossed ;-).


That link is here. Putting link into Google Translate gives an English version. 


http://www.cookaround.com/yabbse1/showthread.php?t=98119


Will try to pm version with poolish. Is tabulated but will do best I can. 


Kind regards, Daisy_A


 

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Daisy.


I prepared something, too, but I'm not very optimistic.

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Thank you all so much for your advice; Andy, as ever, for your continued support.


nico -milanese formula worked great.  With advice from Andy was able to find a suitable hand mixing method. Was also helped by advice from others here and texts from Susan at Wild Yeast. Used raisin yeast water and flour leaven and fresh yeast.


Hope to blog on this. However wanted to reassure you that milanese recipe was a delight to do. Not seen the inside yet. Was a bit tricky baking out tall prototype but felt confident enough to order proper panettone cases, put it that way! Dough was good and strong. 3O minutes air kneading (thanks Andy!) to latex glove consistency. (Where is my medal?). Did this while walking around the house listening to Brazilian music. Very therapeutic. Dough was silky as well as strong.


Made glaze based on your's with a bit of cocoa. Oven spring sent almonds into a fringe! Even did own orange peel as shop's was a bit wan. Smells lovely.


Hope your bake is good. You should be optimistic. You are a great baker. Seeing your colomba was one of the things that attracted me to join TFL.


Will post more but rest easy - the milanese was a good 'un - appreciated. Daisy_A



     

 

 

 

 

nicodvb's picture
nicodvb

Daisy,


your test came out really great! I'd be happy to read how you kneaded the dough and what difficulties you experienced.


May I advise you not to cut the panettone before 2 days? It tastes much better after a period of rest.


My baking came out decently:


http://www.cookaround.com/yabbse1/showthread.php?t=182177&p=3407546#post3407546

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi nico,


Your panettone looks great! 


Thanks for all your advice and encouragement. Will surely write more about hand kneading on blog but basically it was Andrew Whitley's air kneading, as shown on link below. (Note press black box not hyperlink for video. Takes a while to load...).


It's the closest I can come to a mixer by hand as you can torque the dough. To be honest that part wasn't really problematic. It was quite a pleasurable experience. Working out how to bake it out in such a tall case was the hardest part. Have ordered some proper cases now, based on the test run :-)


http://www.breadmatters.com/  


and still: 


Glad you got to me with your message - was just about to cut into it! Ooh, that will be a hard wait, given the homemade peel and limoncello coated raisins 'n all, let alone I want to know how the crumb turned out. Like waiting for Christmas LOL.


Best wishes, Daisy_A


 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi Daisy_A,


I have these to award.   Probably be the middle one for you?


It looks delicious; worth every one of those 30 hard grafting minutes!


 


imagesCAXS8N83


Best wishes


Andy

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Andy,


Have to say the air kneading worked exceptionally well :-). Was pleasurable too, not as daunting as I thought. Had been cramped over my desktop for hours to meet a Friday paperwork deadline, so doing a slow, repetitive, physical activity was quite a soothing contrast. Just put some music on and walked around. Had a few close calls but managed not to drop it!


Had worried that I wasn't experienced with enriched doughs but realised working this that, although not expert, I have handled more doughs now and am developing a feel for them. I timed this in 10 minute intervals but didn't need to wait for the pinger because I could sense when the dough needed resting. Kidding you not, one time I put the dough down, checked the timer and it was 4 seconds to go! I guess these perceptions build up.


Had to laugh when I saw the dough test picture. P was down the shops and my fingers are on the camera. So only thing I could think was to drape it over the spatula. Looks like a big green, alien finger, like I got ET to hold it!


Have to say I draped it, cleaned my hands, photographed it and it still hadn't torn at that stretch. Didn't tear at all, actually. Had to peel it off. Some estimates for hand mixing are 50 minutes, 20 for mixer. I know I couldn't mix a huge batch like this but I think if you take in the time for cleaning the mixer it's a close run. Thanks for suggesting this. It worked really well.


Have to wait now to cut into it...ooh, that's going to be a test.


Best wishes, Daisy_A

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint, Hi All,


Came across an authorised version of the Tartine panettone, which uses a poolish of dry yeast.


On this link


http://lacucinaitalianamagazine.com/recipe/tartine-bakerys-panettone


Best wishes, Daisy_A

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

Daisy, Wow! Your first attempt looks great!


Thanks for forwarding Andy's recipe/tips & the other links, especially one with all natural leaven as I prefer that approach. Aidan Chapman from the Pheonix Bakery in Weymouth is supposed to be sending me one he picked up from an old Milanese baker in the next week, which I'll forwrad if you're interested.


My second attempt at Carol Field's recipe went a little better than the first, though still not satisfactory. Don't if it's a problem with the recipe/method or my technique, probably mostly the latter!


I did get a better rise of the second dough, but difficulties started on adding the fruit & shaping. The dough was very greasy & difficult to shape; I managed to get into rough balls (2x500g & 11x100g). Recipe says it should double c.2hrs after shaping, but after 7hrs it still hadn't quite doubled, esp the larger pieces. I baked them anyway. The panettoncino rose almost to the top of the cases, but the larger doughs were only 1/2 to 2/3rds full after baking.


I'll try & post some photos of the finished articles tomorrow, but not sure how I post them: dragging them into this box doesn't seem to work, so I will have to check elsewhere!

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint,


Thanks for the encouragement! 


I'm glad the information was useful. Happy to pass it on. Look forward to seeing your panettone pictures. (You need to upload to the site. There is an FAQ on it, I think).


I would be very interested in Aidan Chapman's milanese recipe - thanks. 


Hope to post what I did with ingredients and method so that other bakers could try, if interested. I think the formula I started with is a well balanced sourdough formula. The dough wasn't greasy. It was lovely to work with. nico mentioned that it was lower in butter than some. He also said it was a milanese formula from an Italian pastry baker so I guess they have made a few thousand or more panettone!


Best wishes, Daisy_A


 

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

Hi Daisy


Butter content for the Carol Field recipe is 44% compared to 28% in the one you're using & only 15% in Andy's, so that might be why I'm struggling.


I've posted photos on my (new) flickr site http://www.flickr.com/photos/sgratch13/


I tore open one of the panettoncino's straight away. It was just as tasty but lighter than my previous attempt, but not as airy as some pictures/videos I've seen.


I've never tried Andrew Whitley's air-kneading technique & can't see the 'black box' to press. Can't quite make out the mechanics of the technique on the Bread Matters website video.


What hydration starter did you use - recipe seems to be 44%?


It would be great if you could post your recipe & method. Will let you have Aidan's when I get it.


Best regards


Geraint

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint,


They look gorgeous! Light-textured is good, no? Looking at some of the videos of the Italian artisan varieties, they are not all super airy, either. Maybe this is a newer aesthetic? 


You did so well with a batch, too. I only had to cosset the one this time! How much dough did you mix?


Sorry Geraint I'm confusing you. By black box I meant the video screen itself. I spent a while pressing the hyperlink to the Bread Courses, as did others, as I thought the 'snapshot' meant the video.


I've been doing a version of this kneading for a while, as Andrew's Bread Matters was the first bread book I got. Realised, however, after illumination from  Khalid, that I hadn't got the main gist of it, which seems to be rotating the dough through one hand while pulling with the other. I had been sort of concertina-ing the dough between two open hands like a juggler! This is okay with wet doughs and they don't ever come off your hands fully. A bit of a risk with drier ones!


With drier doughs. I can now do the 'Whitley' manoeuvre for a few minutes at a time but no longer. What I then do with drier doughs is just stretch and fold in the air continuously for several minutes. With this dough I built it up in 10 minute 'shifts'. Have to say it was both elastic and extensible so it wasn't too arduous. I'm not sure how much volume you could do at once this way, but then I have read that domestic mixers also struggle to do dough at volume.


Will crank the numbers and do a formula grid for the blog. However, in brief: I tried to coax a starter at 44% feeding 64% Canadian (protein 15), and 34% Italian 00 (protein 11%) but found it so elastic that it rose less well than my normal leaven at 1.1.5.2, fed with 50/50 plain white and whole meal flour. 


i then switched to strengthening the latter, about 3 days before baking. I have to say, though, that my starter is on the bench all the time and I feed it with raisin yeast water, so it is charged up and ready to deal with sweet dough. Fuller details are on the thread below:


http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/20693/culturing-growing-and-baking-range-wild-yeasts


The method was based on a traditional milanese recipe, as above, but will crank numbers and notes and give an account of what I did. Look forward to Aidan's version when you get it. 


With best wishes, Daisy_A

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

Hi Daisy


Thanks for the kind comment - I'm the type who's never satisfied however - Keeps the search alive!


I was quite pleased that I thought of glazing with a syrup made from the marsala that was left from the fruit soaker. Not very authentic but certainly enhanced their appearance.


Total dough weight was around 2.2kg.


I'm not sure I understand your leaven feed formula 1.1.5.2? What's the convention here: leaven, water, flour? But that would be about 20% hydration (wouldn't it?), so maybe 5 is flour & 2 is water so what's the first 1?


Don't know if I'll get chance to bake any more panettone before Christmas as any spare time is being rapidly filled with other commitments the nearer it approaches. We'll see.


Regards, Geraint

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint,


Apologies - should have used some semi-colons or colons there, I can see how it caused confusion. Should have read 1:1.5:2. This is leaven, water, flour, normally 20g:30g:40g. If the leaven is looking a bit peaky I then feed 20:40:60g. At least you queried it and didn't make a 20% hydration dough. That would have been firm. 


Mmm Marsala in the glaze sounds good. Bet that made it flavoursome. Thought your panettone had a good sheen.


Know what you mean about other commitments, although I read that at one time panettone was made all year round, so maybe to celebrate some festival in the New Year?


Have done first draft of formula and notes for blog. Cut the cake. Tasted good with open crumb (phew). Will post asap. Just need to test hyperlinks and add pictures. Will correct typo on leaven. Thanks for that and sorry for any confusion.


Kind regards, Daisy_A


 

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

Hi Daisy


I've just cut into one of the larger (500g) panettone's from my second attempt &  I have to say it tastes f***in' amazin', if I do say so myself, so maybe the high butter content is a good thing! Perhaps I just need to use smaller cases or larger amounts of dough for this particular recipe. I'm hoping to give your recipe a go sometime between Xmas & New Year & will let you know how they compare.


I should also note that I used Bakery Bits Aroma Panettone instead of vanilla essence. It's expensive (2 tsp=70p/2.2kg dough) but makes a big difference to the flavour I think.


Regards


Geraint


 


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint,


Bet it tastes good! DId think about Aroma Panettone. Heard it included vanilla essence and orange flower water so had those and added them. However I have heard that the proper aroma has more things in it. Is on my BB wish list! Good to hear it worked well. How much did you use per kilo?


According to Nico you can add 120g more butter to the formula I gave. Also 120g more sugar, if desired. I may try it again with more butter if buttery is also good!


Do hope you can give it a go and that it works well. You must have lots of lovely panettone to gift and enjoy for now though :-)


Best wishes, Daisy_A

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread

Hi Daisy


I'd just got in from a staff night out when I posted last night, hence the enthusiasm! We're having friends round for prosecco & panettone tomorrow, so it will be good to get some other opinions.


Have you tasted yours yet?


Bakery Bits Aroma Panettone contains "essential citrus oils of bergamot, orange, lemon, tangerine, and vanilla extract". Suggested quantities are 1-2tsp per kg. I used 2.5tsp on my first attempt & 2tsp on my second as I felt it was a bit strong the first time; my dough weighed 2.2kg. The recipe also included the zests of a lemon & an orange. Your recipe seems to call for vanilla & orange essence as well as Aroma Panettone, but doesn't give quantities.


Best regards


Geraint


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Geraint,


You were right to show enthusiasm for such dashed fine panettone!


Prosecco and panettone sounds a great pairing. The one I made was just the test run. Dying to get the cases now to make the ones to share more widely...


I didn't have Aroma Panettone so I tried to approximate it with natural vanilla and orange water oils. Mmm. Might lob in some strong-brewed Lady Grey Tea then for the bergamot and lemon while I consider the BB stuff. I bought the orange flower oil because I'd heard it could also be used in arabic cooking, which am coming to really like. Thanks for the break down.


Mixed oils were 2g/500g which was a small teaspoon of oil. Think I could up it to 3g per 500g next time. Also used 2g of lemon peel. Might up that to 3g. However these are just considerations. Was good as it was. Asked my dh and he wants next ones to be the same as this.


My husband's verdict was 'Mmm, yummy'. But to be more precise, as I tried to be to Khalid, I would say it had a delicate, citrusy vanilla flavour in the crumb like a fragrant custard. This was shot through with really intense predominantly orange and lemon flavours.


This is down to the liqueurs but also to the fact that I only blanch my orange peel a short time. First slices had a really long afterburn of orange oil LOL. I like this but it might not suit everyone. This settled down with further slices. I didn't let the peel sit either as I decided not to use shop bought so had to do some on the spot. Will let the peel 'cure' longer next time. Made the panettone Saturday and it is airy but not dry. I am sure the sourdough helps with this.


Enjoy the panettone party!


Best wishes, Daisy_A


 


 

geraintbakesbread's picture
geraintbakesbread
RonRay's picture
RonRay

Hope it taste as good as it looks, Daisy ;-)


Ron

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Have to wait 2 days to cut it, apparently. Gonna be like a kid at Christmas LOL.


Have to say that the raisin water leaven made a lovely, workable dough. Will highlight that in the write up.  Am sure the yeast helped to get such a sweet dough through a good proof without breaking down :-)


Best wishes, Daisy_A


 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

Would it be possible to re-post the link to air kneading? The image below the link above isn't connected to anything. You know what they say about a picture being worth a thousand words, triple that with video.


Eric

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Eric,


The video that contains air kneading is available on the Bread Matters site at 


http://www.breadmatters.com/


I got to it by pressing the black screen and the pause/play icon on the slider below, as shown on the screenshot below.



It is good that people are interested in this. However, as indicated to Khalid,  it can take a long time to load. Sometimes loading time is as long as 10 minutes, which is why a lot of people, myself included, have thought it is not working. 


I tend now to start it up then make a cup of tea or do something on another screen. I often forget about it too and my dh and I are then startled when the video starts up with Andrew Whitley saying 'I'd like to see your rye sourdoughs, those of you that brought them'. I've never heard Whitley talk before but I should have realised he would have an authoritative voice, given that he worked for the BBC. Honestly, nearly had me running to the kitchen for the sour!


I can't do what he does (rotate dough in one hand, pull with other), for more than a few minutes at a time yet. So when I get tired I stretch and fold continuously in the air, pulling the dough into a 'toffee thread', folding it back, turning 90 degrees, pulling again). It is a very effective technique, though. I should write and let him know.


Best wishes, Daisy_A



 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Lindy,


Thanks for this! This is what I started with, the description in the book. 


I did find when looking at the video that I hadn't been holding the dough as he describes it in the book and as he shows in the still above - just in the fingertips.


Will have to practise that! Had been sort of concertina-ing it between more open hands. Still worked well but more chance of dropping it!


Kind regards, Daisy_A