The Fresh Loaf

News & Information for Amateur Bakers and Artisan Bread Enthusiasts

an appeal for help!

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benjamin's picture
benjamin

an appeal for help!

Hi everyone,


this is a last ditch appeal for help! My girlfriend and I are staying with her parents for the weekend, and we are supposed to bring a cheesecake to a dinner party on Sunday. I wanted to make the cheesecake from Suas advanced bread and pastry, however I forgot to pack the book before leaving home! I was wondering if anyone out there with the textbook would be willing to take the time to write out the formula and proceedure for me an send me in a message. I realize this is not a fun task, but it would be hugely appreciated!


thanks in advance,


Ben


p.s. if someone does message me the recipe, I will post that fact so that others dont waste their time.

BakerBen's picture
BakerBen

Ben,


I scanned the two page you need - not perfect due to the binding and the book is very thick.  I sent you a direct message with the information.


Good luck and I am sure everyone will enjoy the cheesecake.


Ben


 

benjamin's picture
benjamin

Thanks Ben,


you really saved me! Thanks so much for takingn the time out to do that. Also thanks to Alison who typed out the instructions. Between the two of you I should definitely be able pull off this cheesecake. I'll be sure to make a post to let you know how things go.


Thanks again to you both for being so generous with your time!


Ben

Nickisafoodie's picture
Nickisafoodie

Now that you have it, at some point when convenient could you post the recipe? Or forward to me via message if possible?  I do not know the book but now my interest is...


Many thanks!!

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

:)  These two already own the book so they can help each other.

Nickisafoodie's picture
Nickisafoodie

I didn't even think of that, of course you are correct.  Thank you Mini!

BakerBen's picture
BakerBen

Nick,


Mini is correct concerning copyright - I certainly respect the author and every author's intellectual property. I too did not think through this to this level when I sent Benjamin a scanned copy - I was just trying to make sure his weekend plans went well. I am grateful for Mini's input - not just on this topic but on so many more too.


The book, Advanced Bread and Pastry by Michel Sues, is a definitive work written as a textbook. It is fairly expensive - $79,95 retail - but can be obtained a bit cheaper online (Amazon : http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Bread-Pastry-Michel-Suas/dp/141801169X). It is expensive for two reasons at least: (1) a lot of work went into writting it, and (2) it contains a lot of information. It is a great reference text and I highly recommend it.


Ben


 

benjamin's picture
benjamin

I agree with mini, generally I don't like to post recipes from books, unless I have significantly modified them and wish to convey those changes to the fresh loaf community. In this case I don't see any harm in two book owners sharing information, but I don't intend to spread that info any further.


Again, thanks to those who came to my rescue... starting the cheesecake now!


ben

Aussie Pete's picture
Aussie Pete

Hi all,


So I don't make the same mistake on copyrights:-


 I thought there was room to move if you posted which book and author you were using to copy from and gave them due reconigition and respect it overcame most obstacles. Otherwise there could be a bit of copyright infridgment going on this site. However most reciepies being shown from a book on this site are showing this respect anyway. I'm no lawyer it's only my general understanding. Can someone clear this upplease!!


Now here is a stupid question.......Could you rewrite the cheesecake recipe in bakers percentages style where the cream cheese is first expressd as 100% stating that the mix is for a 9 inch mold etc. Now that could be a challenge!!


Cheers all...........Pete.

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Hi Pete,


Here's a quote from the United States Copyright Office relating to recipes:




Mere listings of ingredients as in recipes, formulas, compounds, or prescriptions are not subject to copyright protection. However, when a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection.


Protection under the copyright law (title 17 of the U.S. Code, section 102) extends only to “original works of authorship” that are fixed in a tangible form (a copy). “Original” means merely that the author produced the work by his own intellectual effort, as distinguished from copying an existing work. Copyright protection may extend to a description, explanation, or illustration, assuming that the requirements of the copyright law are met.



To reproduce a complete formula here verbatim requires the permission of either the author or publisher (the owner of the copyright is published on the first pages in every book).  If you don't have that permission, you've violated copyright law.


Now, just the ingredients and amounts can be listed without issue; the copyright violation takes place when the author's directions of what to do with those ingredients are reproduced.   


Yes, you are correct that there had been some copyright infringement going on here, but I think that's changed because many people weren't aware of the law and there's been a move to speak up about it, as Mini did.  The refusal by all the testers in Norm and Stan's book project to give any information about the formulas is another good example of that awareness.  


If you think about it, there's a lot of time, work, testing, and money involved in publishing a cook/bread book.  The creators of those works are entitled to be compensated for their efforts.


Posting the modification of formula and/or technique is not a copyright infringement.  That's been done here and in most cases, the TFL member graciously cites the author and book, noting his/her recipe was a modification.


If a person doesn't want to purchase a particular book but wants a specific recipe from it, local libraries are a great source and if they don't have the book on the shelf, most libraries have an intra-library policy and will obtain a copy of that section of the book for you - in most cases at no charge.  Libraries are allowed a generous fair use policy when it comes to copyright material.


For more reading, check out: Top Ten Copyright Myths


Edited to add that Floyd's site is located in the United States, so U.S. law would apply.

Jw's picture
Jw

yep, we need a lawyer who likes to bake as well. My (non-legal) opinion:

I don't think that with publishing one recipe out of a cookbook (naming titel and author) you infringe the rights of the publisher and/or author. It can be seen as promoting that book and it is 'reasonable' that you do that by publishing and commenting on a recipe. If you do that every week, with a different recipe, of the same book, that's a differenent story.

Wonder how the first person who ever made Cheesecake (or bread for that matter) looks upon those who followed his/her first creation...and claimed rights to it.

please note that I claim all rights to my starfishbread (just kidding).


Cheers,
Jw.

hanseata's picture
hanseata

scoring pattern, I'm afraid I going to infringe on your rights, Jw - will that be a felony?


Always happy about new ideas,


Karin

Jw's picture
Jw

noop, we are talking misdeanor at most. Ist nur ein Witz hier, aber fuer Herausgeber von Buecher  und Schriftsteller eine ernsthafte Sache.


From the looks of your blog, I'll be borrowing a few ideas from you as well..BTW, I live three hours from good old Hamburg.

Gruss,
Jw.

hanseata's picture
hanseata

I would not post a unaltered complete recipe from a book, either, I think that would be quite unfair to the author. But my recipes are usually tweaked and changed around, and/or from books never translated into English.


Wo kommst du denn her?


Karin

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi Karin,


Just a quick reflection here, prompted by your post. I've been translating some recipes from Spanish and Italian to bake from, although I've only posted one.


I've not worked with recipes in a formal publishing context but when dealing with UK publishing of fictional and academic texts  and long extracts from books, both translated and substantially adapted texts were generally regarded as new texts and therefore the work of the new authors. Perhaps this is the same with recipes?


When longer texts were adapted or translated the original authors were generally made aware of the projects, if still around. Can't think of any who weren't delighted and many gave notes on the translation or adaptation  - a bit like the feedback some author/bakers sometimes give to posters on this site who are trying and adapting their formulae I guess.


With best wishes, Daisy_A

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Just replying to Aussie Pete's request for clarity. This is what I understand from US guidelines on recipes plus some general experience in publishing with a UK journal also released in the USA.


This is from the USA Copyright Office's current take on copying recipes, from their website:


 


Mere listings of ingredients as in recipes, formulas, compounds, or prescriptions are not  subject to copyright protection. However, when a recipe or formula is accompanied by substantial literary expression in the form of an explanation or directions, or when there is a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook, there may be a basis for copyright protection.

 


Make of this what you will - it doesn't claim any absolute rights but guidelines seem pretty clear. Lists of ingredients and formulas seem not to be copyright under American law, so if a book is published in America, flagging up the formula and letting bakers take their own shot at the method should be okay. USA has reciprocal agreements with other countries although some of their guidelines may be tighter. My guess is that similar agencies in other countries will also issue guidelines.


Recipes can be registered under a Creative Commons licence. There are different Creative Commons agreements but most allow free circulation of recipes, as long as the original author is credited. The author should flag up the details of their chosen licence. The website Gluten Free Girl and the Chef shows  one example of a generic licence.


It should be fine to reproduce recipes from out of copyright texts but worth checking first!


I don't know about the USA but in the UK educational establishments can apply and pay for licenses to allow them to reproduce limited amounts of material for educational purposes.


As far as I understand it, major adaptations to recipes can be counted as new recipes and as such become the copyright of the new author. That would cover a lot of postings on TFL as most people are adapting and moving formulas on in some way.


Obviously authors do benefit from having whole recipes promoted but it's always gracious to do this with the permission of those holding copyright and publishing rights. Often both authors and publishers need to be contacted over this. Authors can be contacted via publishers and sometimes by direct email but this can take time! I've not done this yet with recipes. I'm trying to do this at the moment but it's taking a while as one publisher has gone into receivership. I've contacted authors and publishers before in a different field of publishing, however, and in most cases authors are delighted to have a small sample of their work promoted.


If a whole recipe has already been agreed for publication on a particular site, like the ABin5 recipes on the Mother Earth News site , then that site can be linked to from another. The recipe can't be lifted in full and published elsewhere, though. Permission has to be granted on a case by case basis.


The USA Copyright Office website also states that:


 


Copyright protects only the particular manner of an author’s expression in literary, artistic, or musical form. Copyright protection does not extend to names, titles, short phrases, ideas, systems, or methods.

 


This should mean that Karin is unlikely to be banged up for copying the starfish slashing as this would probably fall under 'method'! Pretty cool slashing, though.


Kind regards, Daisy_A

copyu's picture
copyu

You must have sent your post while I was composing mine (from my poor memory)


No arguments (legal or otherwise) from me about the info in your post. Yours has more detail, anyway...


Thank you, Daisy_A,


copyu


 

copyu's picture
copyu

you cannot claim "copyright" on a recipe or cooking formula. Therefore, you can't really sue anyone for infringing copyright on a recipe and, therefore, it's a bit of a non-issue. (The High Court of Australia, the House of Lords or the US Supreme Court might disagree with me, one day...)


In general, you may copy parts of "copyrighted" works of art under 'fair dealing' if you are not making a profit from it or claiming it as your own work. [Plagiarism, etc...] If you're a teacher, say, you can copy a whole poem (or part of it) from an anthology or a collection of works, to teach students about language or poetry; you could do the same with a song or a recipe or a painting to illustrate or teach certain skills...


It's different, however, if you teach students within a "for-profit" corporation. You may photocopy (within reason) all materials that the company has licensed for the purposes of teaching its CUSTOMERS, but you could cause your company to be sued if you copied materials from your own textbooks at home, that were not licensed to your company...it's fairly rare, but COULD happen


You could (possibly) PATENT a recipe...but it would have to be so different from what everyone else in the world has ever done as to make a patent almost impossible to achieve...


Is this helpful, or too much information?


Cheers,


copyu


PS: Most "recipe law-suits" I know of, involve people ripping-off "signature" dishes of another restaurant...eg: If I, copyu, opened a restaurant, my 'signature dish' would be "copyu's gratin". It's a combination of a bunch of French and Hungarian ways of presenting potatoes. It would be very easy to reverse-engineer it, even if you'd only tasted it once. Even if it made me rich and famous, I'd have a very hard time suing you if you copied it and stole all my customers


PPS: No, I'm not a lawyer and, yes, I graduated Law School ;-) c


 


 


 

Daisy_A's picture
Daisy_A

Hi copyu,


Thanks for the thumbs up! Lindy and I quoted the same text and your post includes a lot more information than mine does on other forms of copyright problems, particularly about ripping off signature dishes, which I've also heard is the most contested recipe copyright scenario.


I think between us all we've covered a lot of bases and there will probably be more interesting comments to come. I just thought it might help to flag up what might be legal as well, as people in the bread world seem quite eager to share.


Just one thing to add that I remembered afterwards. Apparently when linking to another article via a hyperlink it is recommended that the author puts a full acknowledgement of the linked author(s) and text in their own post also. So seeing I linked to it I need to add that Artisan Bread in Five Minutes a Day is by Zoe Francois and Jeff Hertzberg!


I had been wondering how all this applies to websites like TFL and their hosts. In 2004 I built a couple of small websites for part of the University of London's grad. school and had to consult the extremely helpful in-house lawyer on copyright responsibility. At that time in the UK domain hosts had a major responsibility for any copyright infringement. Just from googling there seems to be a 'safe harbour' agreement in the US for Online Service Providers, including Internet Service Providers, as described on this page . Any more information welcome. Would like everyone to stay safe!


Kind regards, Daisy_A


 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

I have been rather proud of the way our members have self regulated the posting of  work of professional bakers and authors. While TFL is an important resource for aspiring bakers, it is not simply a place to get recipes. Anyone who has been around baking for any time knows that the recipe is a small part of a successful bread. The hands on techniques are easily as important as the formula.


Most of our members will share the ingredients of a unique bread and describe the method they used to bake it. This is well within the respectful bounds of copyright law as it should be. Several prominent authors routinely visit the site and contribute to the conversation when appropriate. I see this as a sign of tacit approval of the way we do business between ourselves.


When I see other bakers trying a new book and talking about the breads here, I'm likely to purchase the book. This discussion on the forum is helpful to the author and publisher. Any one who has read the pages of Bread from Jeff Hamelman will understand how much you would miss if you only had the recipe.


So, I see this as a non issue here. We are respectful and I'm sure we will continue to be so.


Eric

copyu's picture
copyu

You've hit the nail on the head, Eric—show respect and give credit where it's due...help the real professionals to sell more books...while we all share knowledge to get closer to our own goals. Win-Win!


Best,


copyu