How long to knead in a DLX mixer?
I'm getting confused, again. Now that I have more books, I'm seeing inconsistencies. I also just did a quick search here and see inconsistencies. Things from: "You can't overknead a dough without commercial mixers. You'll burn out your KA mixer before you can overknead" to, "I can get a perfectly kneaded dough in 3 minutes with the DLX". Then there's the whole window pane thing. I don't know if any of my doughs have gotten window pane worthy as I always use whole grains and until the other day, my hydration was too low apparently.
Since getting the DLX, I've kneaded it for around 8 minutes because that's how long it seemed to take to get the dough consistency right. But the Clayton bread book says to hand knead and machine knead for the same amount of time, and has different directions for food processors. So, for the last few loaves I've made, I've kneaded them for 12-16 minutes. Now I'm wondering if that's overkill? The French Fold video I watched does that for 20 minutes and that's a pretty vigorous kneading process.
Thoughts?
Melissa
Melissa,
The answer to your question can be found in Jeffrey Hamelman's book, Bread. He thoroughly covers this subject in an easy to understand fashion. Also I would recommend that anyone, with a real interest in bread, read this entire book.
Jeff
I think I need to get thsi book from the library. That's like the 4th or 5th reference to it I've seen in as many days. Thanks!
I have a DLX and the mixing time depends on the formula a bit. With whole wheat, you want to concentrate on the higher hydration formulas--if working from a white flour recipe you will need to add a bit more water for whole wheat conversion (start with 5 to 10%--you will have to find out by trial and error for each author or use a whole wheat recipe from the get go). I mix for 3-5 minutes depending on the size of batch, hydration, whether on roller and scraper or on the dough hook, but the general idea is to get a uniform dough mixture, nothing more. Go away for 20 to 30 minutes (again, how long depending on ......everything--you get the picture) for the autolyse, during which the water is spreading uniformly throughout the dough and the gluten is starting to form: your mixing will then develop the gluten efficiently, and without the autolyse step you will have to run perhaps twice as long to get decent gluten development. The autolyse is also credited with some flavor development by most authorities and definitely gives a more refined finished bread, more predictable behavior from batch to batch and all manner of good things.
The DLX is a bit less assertive than hook mixers (I have no experience with spirals), so if you are looking at a recipe that says X minutes on low speed (usually meaning on a commercial mixer), you might go a bit longer as a general rule until you get experience. Again, whether or not you autolyse (sometimes called resting the dough) will make a big difference in the total time developing the gluten. The ultimate test is the feel of the dough, and you can play with window panes, but with practice and regular experience the mere feel of a well developed dough is enough. With whole wheat, less power mixing is better as the mixing the bran supposedly damages the strands of gluten which give the bread its structure (hence the special importance of the autolyse with whole wheat).
My current practice is a mix, autolyse, short gluten development run on the DLX and then stretch and folds. I have a definite impression that the stretching step will give better elasticity to the dough (more push/rise in the oven). I wouldn't even need the mixer at all except I tend to make pretty large batches (7 to 15 pounds of wet dough I don't want to stir by hand!)
There are all manner of good books out there, and over time you will probably accumulate an unreasonably large number (blushes). Most of the commentary on The Fresh Loaf is devoted to making the transition from good bread to great bread. You will only learn by making bread, and there will be a few bricks along the way. Learn to make a good loaf by paying attention to the feel of the dough, paying attention to the nuances of flavor different techniques make (do you prefer a darker or lighter roast on your crust--that sort of thing), what your family likes (ask them is this better than that) and they will become sophisticated in their tastes as you develop your own preferences. They will point out things you don't see at first.
Get to baking, as you really cannot learn the basics entirely from books. Touch and smell and many other intangibles matter a lot, as does learning to make adjustments of time and temperature in baking for different types of bread. Plan on being able to make a really noteworthy loaf of bread in about two years: I suspect you really may not know what a noteworthy loaf is at this point in your learning, unless you live near an exceptional local bakery. In two years, you regularly should be able to match or exceed what your local supermarket bakery calls artisan bread, even starting for the first time with a new recipe. Maybe you can even do better than your local "artisan bakery" if you are a good study, as commercial baking cannot compete with home baking in attention to many of the fussiest details. You can be baking "competition loaves" where they are baking "daily bread" (which if they are skilled and conscientious will be really really good bread--I won't put them down for a second). I live in the Denver area, and in the huge metropolitan area there are perhaps a dozen of what I consider true artisan bakeries and perhaps 3 dozen more that make really good bread. There are hundreds of bakeries, not counting supermarket bakeries. Some of the better bakers you will see regularly on TFL make great bread by any standard and in any company of comparison. Start at the beginning like they did. Don't get too booksh at the outset--a couple of the recommended books is plenty to absorb to start out.
Oh, and the other tip is to give at least 8 hours of wetness to the dough before baking. This allows enzymes in the dough to develop flavor, and with whole wheat they also eat up the phytic acid (which might otherwise interfere with body calcium). A slow rise (probably less yeast than most recipes suggest--get this figured out too) is enough here, but you will want to experiment with many many techniques for developing flavor and producing a healthy bread for the family.
This is great information and I love it, but I am a bit confused. So, you knead it in the mixer for 3-4 minutes (basically just mixing the ingredients) and then let it rest for the autolyse and then you take it out and knead it by hand some more?
I fully get how doing it by hand more is probably preferable, but until I have more free time, I plan to use my machine for kneading.
I'm not new to baking or even baking breads. I just always stuck to simple recipes in a bread pan. I have a couple recipes down pat that are beautiful, but I wanted to extend my knowledge and skills.
I live in the DC area and there is an amazing bakery that comes to the Burke Farmer's market every Saturday. But, their breads were outrageously expensive ($8 and up a loaf). They were all wood fired baked and were fantastic, but we would get one loaf on Saturday and it would be gone that same day. If I were to buy for the week from them, I would spend about $50 a week on BREAD when I should be able to make it myself for under $10 a week.
I've had my DLX mixer for 5 years and have used it for breads and cakes and cookies. I love the mixer, but I'm trying to figure out how to get more air bubbles into my bread and now I'm wondering if maybe I'm over or under kneading it in the machine.
I have learned my doughs were probably too dry as recipes tend to be on the dry side and when shaping more flour was added. Well, now I've gotten away from that a bit and have made a wetter dough, but air bubbles are eluding me. I know part of it too is that I haven't used a starter base yet (I'm starting to grow one tonight) and then we'll see.
Not that I've made tons of loaves of bread, but probably over 50 in the last few years. And probably 50-75 decorated cakes.
Melissa
I have worked entirely in the mixer. The first mixing is simply literally that--mix everything up. Then rest. Then do the actual mixing to make the dough into a developed bread dough. If the recipe says mix or knead for 5 minutes, I might go 8, or I might go for 4 and then finish by hand with stretching and folding. You find what works for the recipe at hand, and there will be more than one way to make good bread. As your personal taste develops (do you like it crusty, do you like large or small holes or no holes, how do you develop the nuances of flavor you prefer, do you want a dense chewy loaf or do you prefer something lighter but perhaps not marshmallow bread, etc., and also how to make more than one style of loaf and do it well) This take making a lot of bread. Other than shaping of the loaves, hand work is not necessary for good homemade bread, but to make the transition from what YOU consider good to great bread may take hand work IF you prefer that style of finished loaf, and the differences will be subtle but you will recognize them with training.
It took you a couple of years to learn to make a cake you like and to develop decorating skills. (I have always wanted to learn to decorate cakes, probably because I love to eat them, and I also have books back to a 1919 Carl Richards cake book on cake recipes and decorating, but I have very very little practice--I'm jealous.) Bread is the same. A couple of years of regular practice, a little thoughtful reading over that time, and you will make what you personally can take pride in as not merely tasty homemade bread, but a bread that is good bread in ways your neighbors may not even be aware of.
Sourdough I have dabbled in only lightly, as I do not bake enough to keep the starter from going much too sour for my taste. Once a week with only one or two feedings if you remember them will not give you enough consistency in the flavor department from bake to bake. Do not be surprised if your starter smells like vomit for a week or so, and persevere following the instructions. It takes a couple of weeks to get a healthy balance, and whole wheat may be a bit more demanding (that is my limited experience anyway). A bit of rye flour can be a help, again based on limited experience. In my opinion, a lightly flavored sourdough with a good robust interior with some nice open structure and a well browned crust is about as good as it gets. Made from white whole wheat and a good measure of spelt, freshly ground. Getting the sourdough at the perfect stage with all the other aspects of good bread making going with it takes more skill than i have to pull off consistently with only the slight practice I have had, so don't be afraid to experiment until it is all together at the same time. There are no shortcuts to practice here. Open structure generally takes more water than an even structure, which I see you have learned elsewhere.
Rather than sourdough, you might start with a sponge or poolish as it is called in french. Flour and water and yeast to light batter consistency (1:1 to 1:2 four:water, depending on the flour), let it rise until there is a slight dimple at the top (3 or 4 x volume change probably) in one bowl. In another bowl, make a heavy dough with the remaining water and flour and salt, and let it ripen (enzymes again) while the sponge/poolish is rising. When the sponge/poolish has risen mix the two, make flour adjustments and add other things as indicated in your recipe, and let do the first rising. You knead with or without folds and turns as you want. After the doubling of the first bulk rise, you shape and pan (if using pans) for the final rise and bake off. This is the general idea, it is much simpler and vastly easier to control than sourdough, and will make good bread, even outstanding bread. There are an enormous number of variations around this basic procedure. Find a book and follow the specific instructions there, preferably Rheinhart or Hamel. With a little practice, you wil be able to do this without overly fussy measuring it is so easy. A cup of this, a scant cup of that, that looks about right. The best loaf a recipe can produce will still take measuring, but when you are to the point where you can throw together a decent loaf you will be well along the way.
I just bought my new DLX Magic Mill too.. I've made two breads with it so far, both turned out fantastic, btw. I have all the books and have perused this site in great detail and yes, it's easy to get confused.
My advice is to follow your instinct and don't worry about mixing times as much as you should focus on your dough. I've said this here before, Peter Reinhart told me once, "the dough doesn't lie". I've taken those words and they have guided me nicely throughout my break baking experiences.
Yesterday, I just made a Ciabatta bread using a recipe here. http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2984/jasons-quick-coccodrillo-ciabatta-bread
The directions said to "beat like hell" the dough, which really started out as a wet pancake batter consistency. But I did it anyway. The directions also said the dough needed to be beaten like this from 10-30 minutes. Well, I just cranked out 12 minutes in my Magic Mill and the dough started creeping up the roller (never did use the dough hook!) and this was what I was hoping to achieve. It had great consistency, so I pulled it out.
The result.. the best Ciabatta crumb and structure that I have EVER made.
My only advice to you is to not worry so much about these details. Just stick with the proper formula's and pay more attention to what your dough should look and feel like than stress over exacting times. My dough will require more hydration than most since I live in the desert. It will also depend on what type of flour I'm using and other factors. For you, it will be totally different to me or to anyone else.
Just bake and find your comfort zone. Try that Ciabatta for a fun way to use your DLX.. follow the directions exactly, but you be the judge on the mixing times. It's one of those recipes where you can use the roller for the whole recipe. I stood there for 12 minutes and just stared at the dough and watched it transform right before my eyes.
Yes, I know.. I need to get another hobby! LOL
Be determined that it will take several bags of flour to test and improve your baking skills.
Use one bread recipe; a simple one that uses just flour, water, starter, and salt, until you get the consistency you want.
Take notes!!! Use your notes until you work out the kinks.
Also, how you proof and handle your dough will make a lot of difference.
And yes, I've over kneaded my dough so that after proofing the dough looks like it had small pox or leprosy.
Again, lots of flour, use one recipe, take notes and use the TFL forum which has a wide base of baking knowledge.
That's good advice. The only other thing I might add is not to tackle a difficult bread in the beginning. For some reason, many bakers start out with the baguettes and I have found that this bread is not only technically challenging, but has lots of room for error.. not to mention that it's quite time consuming.