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Commercial 'Sauerteig' / Sourdough culture from "Seitenbacher"

copyu's picture
copyu

Commercial 'Sauerteig' / Sourdough culture from "Seitenbacher"

Hi all,

I received two sachets of "Seitenbacher Natur Sauerteig" in a parcel from my nephew, who lives in Germany. I had asked him to send me some caustic soda [NaOH—Sodium Hydroxide, food-grade] for pretzels and he included some spelt flour, some whole spelt grains, a couple of varieties of bread spice and the "sourdough" sachets.

Does anyone know how the 'sourdough' mix should be used? [I am *mostly* a sourdough baker...I have a vigorous (2-year-old?) rye starter in the fridge right now...] I suspect the product I have might just be a 'flavor' enhancer...the ingredients don't mention yeast ("Hefe" in German)—only rye meal, water and "sourdough cultures" (pluralized in the original German). To me, "sourdough cultures" would include yeast...Has anyone tried this stuff?

If so, I'd be happy to hear from you!

Thanks,

copyu

PS: The US "Seitenbacher" website lists the product. The web-site appears to be translated almost word-for-word from German into English. There is a warning that "Baking experience is needed to use this product". Yeah! So? I'm not a beginner, but I don't know where to start! I'm tempted to add half a pack to my current starter and the other half to my next loaf. What do you think? Thanks very much! copyu

 

rocketbike's picture
rocketbike

I brought a packet back from a recent trip to Germany, where the Seitenbacher product is available in many supermarkets.  I ignored the instructions and fed mine a couple of times with equal weights of rye flour and water.  The result looks, smells and performs pretty much the same as my home grown rye culture.  I've baked with it only once, mind, so I can't comment on its long term prospects.

dmsnyder's picture
dmsnyder

Hi, copyu.

I don't know the product you received, but I wonder if it's a dehydrated rye sour. If so, the thing to do with it is to re-hydrate and feed it to make a new sour. In other words, it's a complete rye sour (minus the water), not an additive or flavoring agent.

If the packet is a powder of a tablespoon volume, I would start by mixing it with a tablespoon or two of water and a tablespoon or two of rye flour. Let it come alive, which may take 24 hours or more. Then continue to feed it as you would a new starter you had "captured" yourself, until it looks ready to raise dough and smells right.

Please let us know if you discover more authoritative information about this product and what you end up doing with it.

David

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I was playing with the stuff 3 years ago and decided it was a dormant sourdough that if fed, could be up and running in a few days.  It has a nice flavor.  It is designed to sour any rye you may use and needs a kick of yeast if using right away. 

If you feed it, you can also make a sourdough culture using it.  Just type in the name and you'll get there fast.  I would get it up and running on its own before adding to your present starter if you want to do that.  Its in the beginning of the thread in April/May 2007.  While you're at it: http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/2928/beauty-sourdough-facial

Mini 

ananda's picture
ananda

Hi copyu,

I've bought dried sour preparations on the net before, and they've performed excellently.

All the above posters give great advice, particularly David's idea to give a gradual feed at first.

Hydrate as is your preference for rye sour.   Mine is 100 flour to 167 water, but I know others go stiffer, particularly Hamelman.   Whatever works best for you; only, please let us all know how  it all goes with the reconstituted culture

Best wishes, and thank you for your kind comments on my students' hard graft

Andy

copyu's picture
copyu

I'm now keen to try this stuff.

I 'googled' the "Seitenbacher" name and didn't get any 'hits' related to TFL in the first couple of pages. I suppose I really should have searched TFL before posting, anyway...mea culpa!

I was thinking of trying to 'grow' it, but the basic dough recipe on the package recommends 10g of 'dry yeast' for 500g of flour in addition to the 75g of 'Sauerteig' so that made me a little suspicious. I thought it might just be a little package of typical sour bacterial by-products

Thanks for the link to the sourdough "facial treatment" post, Mini. That 'secret recipe' is still there on the second package! I might have to try that, too. At my age, it couldn't do any harm.  

Thanks again,

copyu

hanseata's picture
hanseata

I went into a German Sauerteig-Forum (www.der-sauerteig.de) where they discussed the same issues.  Their expert opinion was:
Store bought ready made sourdoughs (Fertigsauerteig) were usually no good substitute for a home made starter. They were mostly “souring cultures” (Saeuerungskulturen), containing no yeast, and were not usable for making an own sourdough starter.
The same could be said for the so called rapid sours (Schnellsauer), used by many commercial bakers. That would be an industrial souring tool for bakeries, to make, with the addition of yeast,  a halfway acceptable sourdough bread, but no adequate substitute for sourdough, and, also, not usable to make an own starter.
There were also some powdered sourdough cultures available. Their labels would show whether those were real sourdough starters (with their own sourdough yeasts) that could be fed and kept as mother starter, or, again, only a souring aide.
The Forum listed some products it had tested - the ones recommended were Vitam-R Sauerteig Extrakt (powder) and Walkmuehle Sauerteig (dried).
I also checked on the Seitenbacher product description, but they omitted any details other than adding it to flour together with yeast and other ingredients. Therefore I think this is only what they call a “souring aide”.

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

It is a sourdough culture.  Seitenbacher claims such.   It must be dormant, it contains only rye water and sourdough culture.   I know it can be up and running on its own in 36 hours.  I quote their site:

Unser Sauerteig lässt sich auch weiter vermehren, da es richtiger Sauerteig ist, es ist aber schwierig. Man braucht fundiertes Fachwissen.

The translation:  Our sourdough allows itself to be multiplied, because it is a real sourdough, it is difficult.  One needs to know (sourdough) knowledge.  
copyu's picture
copyu

Thanks to everyone's responses, I've been thinking about this a bit more. My conclusions?

I figure there's no way, short of pre-roasting or boiling their rye meal, that they could eliminate ALL the natural yeasts that occur on the rye berries. There wouldn't be any real advantage to that, as far as I can see. Also, there might not be that much yeast to worry about, anyway.

They also recommend refrigeration, or at least keeping the packages in the dark and under 22°C, which is below spring/summer room temperature here. I guess there is a small danger of the packages bursting, perhaps due simply to fermentation. It sounds likely.

Regular feeding would probably work, but there are several ways to 'inoculate' it also. I suppose I could soak German rye Flocken or Spelzweizen, or some California raisins in filtered water and use that for a couple of days' worth of feeding, just to guarantee some 'yeasty' action. 

Finally, if regular feeding doesn't get any action, I could just use the same stirring stick as I use for my established rye starter, without wiping it first. That should really get something happening...

Your thoughts and opinions are much appreciated. Thanks very much to all!

copyu

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I'd go with using it 1:5:5 (S:W:F) with rye and let it stand 24 hours, then reduce to 20g and feed again  1:2:2  until it starts to rise, blow bubbles or change aroma, then back to 1:5:5.  Feeding every 12 hours.  Just water and flour with no "frills"  75° - 85° F.

Mini

copyu's picture
copyu

You've got the experience with this stuff that I was hoping to find on TFL.

It'll have to wait until next week before I give this a try. I had to work all last weekend and had to change my schedule a bit this week to suit some students of mine...I haven't actually baked anything for 3 weeks. (I guess baking is a bit like riding a bicycle...I hope so!)

I'm working on a blueberry pie at the moment, however. That must make up for the lack of home-baked bread, for sure.

Cheers for the advice, Mini.

copyu

copyu's picture
copyu

you were right (...as usual, no doubt!) Your explanation was perfect.

I modified the schedule a bit...I did 2 feeds, 1:5:5 (S:F:W) 12 hours apart, before reducing the volume. After 12 hours, I was intrigued by the honey-like smell. This continued through the next 10-12 hours. The stuff actually rose in the jar without any real 'yeast-like' activity (visible bubbles, for example) but it was certainly alive! I guess this was bacterial, rather than yeast, action.

I stirred it down and reduced the volume to 20% of original. (I couldn't resist putting a dessertspoonful of the discard into my established starter) and fed it 1:2:2.

[Before that 3rd feeding, I checked the pH with my meter...it was still very acidic...pH 5.1 or so.]

At the 36-hour mark, as predicted, it was a starter. Hurrah! I didn't have the chance to bake with it, then, but I feel confident it would have made a good loaf from a pile of rye flour, a dash of salt and some water...it's been on a regular feeding schedule for about a week and is now languishing in my fridge. I think this method should be on the 'highly recommended' list for getting a starter going quickly; at least a rye bread starter, anyway. [If I weren't a rye bread fanatic, I don't think I'd bother keeping a starter, except for fun and 'educational' purposes...)

Well done, Mini, and thanks a lot for all the help.

Cheers,

copyu

 

rocketbike's picture
rocketbike

I'd been keeping a bit of my Seitenbacher culture in the fridge since May, feeding once a week at 1:1:1 (culture:rye flour:water).  Yesterday I picked it out and made another Hamelman Vermont sourdough with whole wheat.  As before, the result was essentially indistinguishable from my homegrown culture - both in terms of appearance and flavour.

The loaves

The crumb

The way this works - usable immediately out of the packet in place of a 'normal' culture,  with successful subsequent propagation - convinces me the Seitenbacher product is more than a souring aid:  it is a rye culture proper.

R.

 

copyu's picture
copyu

but more important is congratulating you on your outstandingly beautiful baking.

Great job, rocketbike!

Sincerely,

copyu

dvencappa@ymail.com's picture
dvencappa@ymail.com

hello, I received two packs of this liquid sourdough from Seitenbacher Natur Sauerteig from a friend in Berlin. I opened one pack, and it smelled like overripe fruit. On day 1, I added 100g:100ml (white bread flour:water) . I did not notice any bubbling activity on day 2. I added 50g:50ml (organic rye flour:water) on day 2 but again no activity on day 3. On day 3 I added 50g:65ml (organic rye flour:water) but again no bubbling activity on day 4. There are very few bubbles but not enough to indicate activity. On day 4, it is now smelling like yogurth (i.e. a pleasant sour smell). Can you please suggest what I am doing wrong here? Any advice very much appreciated.

 

Thank you.

tpassin's picture
tpassin

I believe that this kind of liquid sourdough contains mostly lactic acid bacteria, and is intended to be used to build a rye sour sponge for rye bread.  Instant yeast is expected to be added to the dough as well. The overripe fruity smell suggests that, as does the lack of bubbliness.  It's not expected to be propagated by refreshing, and it would have little if any yeast.

I have no first hand experience, but it sounds just like what I have been reading in this interesting article on rye baking:

https://artofeating.com/real-rye-bread/

TomP

dvencappa@ymail.com's picture
dvencappa@ymail.com

thanks tpassin - that is very odd, as I thought that being described as natural sourdough, it would be like a starter that can be refreshed (I can appreciate the addition of yeast if baking right away, as sourdough takes a long time to rise). But I believe the description on the ingredients lists refers to sourdough starter culture, which I thought was exactly what I am looking for. 

hopefully others might also offer their thoughts on/experience with this product if they have used it.

 

Best.

tpassin's picture
tpassin

I think it's mainly about the translation of the term "sourdough".  Here's a passage from the article I linked to that seems to apply:

Three-stage sourdoughs are extremely rare these days, replaced by simply mixing all the flour and water at once with a small amount of inoculum, so that the dough matures slowly over 15 to 18 hours. (This tactic now so dominates that Brümmer calls it “die exklusive Führung” — the only stage.) One-stage methods include the Berliner short method, Monheimer salt sour, and others, but especially the Detmolder one-stage. These methods work, but every recipe I’ve seen includes baker’s yeast, yet another thorn in the side of wheat purists, but universally accepted in Germany for decades. 

The inexorable logic of this divides fermentation into two separate parts: the sourdough is there for flavor and acidity, and the yeast creates the rise.

You can see from the highlighted sentence at the end that the term "sourdough" is being used differently from the way many of us think about it (as a combined yeasty/acidy rising agent).

 

dvencappa@ymail.com's picture
dvencappa@ymail.com

Thanks tpassin - the extract from the article (thanks for pasting it into here as the article was behing a paywall) hits the nail on the head re how many of us (certainly me for sure!) use "sourdough" as a catch all term for any fermentation process where you throw together flour, water (+ possibly something sweet) to get a rising agent (wild yeast).  I have created some wonderful sourdough flavours from this (I once detected single malt whisky notes in my bread if you can believe that!). From what you appear to be suggesting, the Steinbacher Natur Sauerteig is the sourdough portion extracted and it therefore would still need the yeast part added to it. From my feeding process over the last few days as described earlier, I am hoping that the addition of bread flour and water would help get to the yeasty part.... I can only hope now.... thanks for your perspective/insights on this - always learning something.

tpassin's picture
tpassin

Glad I could be helpful.

 the article was behing a paywall

Sorry, I didn't realize.  Something many people don't know is that if you can turn javascript** off in your browser, you can access many articles that otherwise are behind paywalls.  Sometimes you can't see the pictures but you can read the text.  That is in fact how I was able to read the linked article and not know it was paywalled.

The flip side of using a javascript blocker is that many sites won't work at all, or will only partly work, without javascript.  It is an art to figure out which of the many other sites a page uses need to be unblocked.  But you can always turn the blocking off for an entire site.

** I use the NoScript add-on.

TomP

mariana's picture
mariana

Hi! I have found for you an article that describes exactly how it is activated. I did it as well in a similar fashion when I got packets of mine as a gift from my friends in Germany, but I did not blog about it back then. 

 I believe the description on the ingredients lists refers to sourdough starter culture, which I thought was exactly what I am looking for. 

You are correct. It does contain sourdough starter culture, only living bacteria, not yeasts. They are preserved by high acidity of the starter, they are asleep and can be awakened, the starter activated. 

Currently, active yeasts, including sourdough yeasts, can be preserved and sold with up to one year (or longer) expiration date, only in dry form. In liquid active form they keep well only for 12-14 weeks refrigerated. So, there are active dry sourdough  starters with pure sourdough cultures sold mostly for  bakeries which contain both yeasts and bacteria in dry form. King Arthur Flour company used to repackage them into small packets and to sell them to retail customers, but they no longer do that. Now they are known as King Arthur Bakery and sell a similar Florapan dry starter with pure cultures.

Other people also share or sell their SD starters with active SD cultures in dry form, but they do not know which species they contain, because they are homemade ( or received from others) and never been analyzed in a lab . 

 I thought that being described as natural sourdough, it would be like a starter that can be refreshed.

Yes. It can be used as is, it will add sourdough acids to your rye bread, or refreshed and refrigerated for up to one week, after which it needs to be refreshed again. in both cases, it would be used along with active baker's yeasts, compressed (sold as fresh yeast cubes) or dry (ADY, IADY, or osmotolerant instant yeast, like SAF Gold yeast, which works well in extreme conditions - with lots of sugars and/or lots of acids in the dough).

The trick is that you need high temperatures to activate them pure bacterial sourdough cultures  from their lethargic, dormant state, the same temperature that active dry yeast granules need (Fleishmann's Active Dry Yeast or Lesaffre's Levain-Levure dry yeast granules) .

100-107degrees F or 38-42 degrees Celsius.

Many electric home ovens have "Proof" setting, it maintains exactly that temperature for about 12 hours non-stop, then it needs to be restarted on 'Proof'' again for a total of 15 hours of activation and growth of the Natur Sauerteig bacteria. Or a heating pad which does not have an automatic shutoff function can be used as well. I keep it on the lowest setting and place the starter on a rack above it and cover everything with a towel. More expensive solutions for temperature control are small proofers, or small dual function proofers/refrigerators

Since it's a concentrated lactic acid starter (liquid CLAS), it is refreshed and activated by using CLAS methods, by feeding it 1:9 and keeping it at about 105+5 degrees F or 40+2C for 15 hours, stirring once. That's it. 

So, the method is the following, it is shown by a baker from Germany who writes in his blog in Russian, you can use Google translate to read it. I will illustrate it here with his pictures.

To obtain 250g of active 150% hydration starter , 

25g Seitenbacher Natur-sauerteig 

90g malted whole rye flour 

135g warm water (about 105-110 degrees F)

mix, cover, and place it in the oven on Proof setting (100 deg F) and keep it there for 15 hours, stirring it once at the 12 hours mark. Then cover and leave it it there for 3 more hours. The starter will become foamy (and might but not necessarily will double in volume). 

That's it. Its aroma and taste will be identical to the aroma and taste of the packaged starter and it will impart beautiful aromas and taste to breads, stronger than those we usually get from homemade starters with unknown species and strains of microorganisms in them.

You can bake whole grain breads with it now using 7% of that starter (I.e. a teaspoon or 7 g of starter for each 100g of flour in your recipe), remember to add 1% compressed or 0.5% dry yeast to your dough, or keep it refrigerated for up to one week after which you should again refresh it as described above.

If you want to bake white sourdough breads, then you would be able to switch this starter (after refreshing it with whole rye flour) to malted white rye flour or to malted white bread flour and water. The process of refreshing it is the same each time, only later switch it to 190% hydration, it is better than 150% hydration in the first refreshment.  

Converting this starter into a traditional yeasted sourdough starter takes only 5 hours at 80-82 degrees F (27 degrees C) as described in brotgost blog, the second part of this article:

29g of refreshed (activated) 190% hydration Natur Sauerteig (10g flour+19g water)

35g flour

26g water

0.6g compressed yeast ("fresh", sold in cubes) or 0.3g dry yeast (active dry or instant yeast)

___________

total: 91g of 100% hydration starter

5 hours at 80-82 deg F or 27C and it is ready and can be used in baking. At 80-82F/27C wild yeasts from flour will also quickly grow in it. 

To refrigerate it, keep it at 150% hydration, i.e. add to it 22g of water, refrigerate, refresh once a week like so

6g starter (150% hydration)

50g whole rye flour

39 g water

keep it for 16 hours at 80-82 deg F or 27C.  You  will now have 95g of a 80% hydration rye starter. 

 

 

 

dvencappa@ymail.com's picture
dvencappa@ymail.com

That's brilliant Mariana! Exactly what I needed to understand how to use this liquid starter. Thank you for taking the time to print this very useful info here!