The Fresh Loaf

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Sourdough starter: 3rd attempt!! ARG!!

Monkeyphish32081's picture
Monkeyphish32081

Sourdough starter: 3rd attempt!! ARG!!

Well I had to throw out my sourdough starter again today because it was dead.  This is starting to get frusterating.  My first starter I was able to get a loaf out of and before I could test out another loaf, I wake up to find flies in the starter and the lid off!  ARG!!  So that same day, I start up a new batch and after a week, it smelled of mildew.  I am VERY determined to make it work this time...No matter what it takes. 

Comments

reyesron's picture
reyesron

I tried a starter a couple of weeks ago and got a lotta nuthing out of it.  In the final analysis it was probably because I used tap water.  So I  used pineapple juice about 5 days ago, and I'm gettin some life out of it.  Now if I only knew what to do next...

althetrainer's picture
althetrainer

I can see how frustrating it could be finding flies in your starter.  Have you tried putting a piece of plastic wrap over it with a rubberband instead of a lid?  It should be pretty warm in California by now so temperature and humidity could play a big role in building your starter.  If you have time, check out SourdoLady's blog on how to build a starter.  I used her formula to build mine two years ago and it has been serving me wonderfully since. 

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/233

Don't give up!

Al

Monkeyphish32081's picture
Monkeyphish32081

to teach me what Im doing wrong.

Well this sourdough was started using the Pineapple juice solution found in Peter Reinhart's book.  I know a decent amount of baking thru my culinary education so I know its just something Im just not getting yet.  No matter what, Im not giving up!!  I know Im a great Chef and I Love to bake...I will get the routine down!! 

Also, I have a question.  I know air exposure is important and was wondering if a tight knit fabric on top held on by a rubber band or would that dehydrate the dough?

LindyD's picture
LindyD

Your sourdough culture should be covered with plastic or a lid.  Mine's been kept in a Cambro quart container, lidded, since created three years ago.  Stirring aerates the culture when refreshing  It won't use up all the oxygen in the container between feedings.

TFL member Mike Avery has an excellent website concerning all things sourdough.  I think you'll enjoy it:

http://sourdoughhome.com/startingastarter.html

ezarecor's picture
ezarecor

I keep my starter in crockery, which is not 100% airtight.  I don't think you need to stress about this detail in any event, because you're not working in a clean room and what's in your kitchen will end up in your starter.  

You also don't need to stress about making your container too airtight.  You'll be able to tell if your starter is starved for oxygen because it will start to produce alcohol, which you will probably be able to smell.  This will probably only become an issue once it's established and moved to the fridge, if you choose to do so.  I do so, because I like to minimize the amount of flour that goes to feeding, but doesn't end up in my bread.

There's an added advantage to crockery as well.  Yesterday, I preheated my oven to 375 to bake some brioche.  When it reached temperature, I opened the oven and, to my horror, saw that I had forgot to remove my mother and daughter starters -- mom was out of the fridge for her weekly refresh.

Mom was in the crock and the daughter was in plastic.  Believe it or not, mom appears to have survived the ordeal, the daughter, not so much.

I'm certain you will get a good starter going.

Ed.

reyesron's picture
reyesron

I've lost track at what day I am on for my second attempt, but it's around day 7. I just looked at it, and smelled it, and I'm fairly certain I have a good one going. I'm going to try it today in a loaf of no knead.  Besides omitting tap water and using pineapple juice, the only other thing I would point out that may be different is the cap on my jar is on tight and standing on top of the fridge, not in it.  I have some fruit flies flying around because of some bananas on the counter, but the jar is too tight for them to get in.  As I've read the different instructions for beginning a starter, the seal on the jar seems to be less of a factor in the early stage.  Once its in the fridge, it could be looser, so maybe air exposure is less important.  I may alter that observation if my no knead doesn't rise, but for now I think I have it.   

longhorn's picture
longhorn

It sounds like you are too early for having a viable sourdough starter for it is clearly not yet a robust, happy levain. You should have it on an eight to twelve hour feeding schedule (and NEEDING to be fed at that schedule - i.e. it should be frothing up and collapsing in twelve hours) for at least three or four days and preferably a week before it will really be ready to go. Using it now is possible but you will almost certainly get a log instead of a loaf.

Even with pineapple juice it takes a couple of days for the "starter" to get acidic enough to activate the wild yeast spores. You have probably had active wild yeast for less than four days. If robust, it could be marginally usable at that point, but don't expect much. Keep it out and keep feeding it for another week or so.

Hang in there!
Jay

reyesron's picture
reyesron

however, what I had was a pretty happy looking bubbly starter thats been fed over the past 8 days or so and seemingly expanding.  So, just for jollies, I put together a Lahey no knead using the starter as per our friend at Breadtopia about 14 hours ago and I've got a doubling, which at least tells me it is working to some degree. On the other hand, the dough looks quite a bit wetter than usual, and right now, I would consider myself lucky if I get a log, as opposed to what might be a fairly large pancake.  I am a patient man in some respects, so I will wait awhile longer before plunging it into the oven.  I probably should have mixed up a parallel loaf with yeast so I would at least have some bread in the morning.  Know what, I'll do that right now!

reyesron's picture
reyesron

I knew when I embarked on this starter business it wasn't going to be easy despite what the starter experts write.  My first attempt at a sourdough dough resulted in a puddle of glop on my marble slab.  It's certainly not a tragedy, but it does give one pause to wonder why you would even do this when yeast is so plentiful, and the breads I've been making are quite good without it.  Well, I'm not a quitter so I'll throw out there where i am, and see if someone has any suggestions what to do next:  I have a jar that I've been working on for 8 or 9 days.  I don't remember exactly because its my second attempt.  I've fed it every day and I have a pasty, bubbly, aromatic starter.  I must be missing something as to what to do next.  When does the starter become usable?   

Monkeyphish32081's picture
Monkeyphish32081

Right now you have what is called a seed culture.  It has the Lactobacilli in it, well populated and ready for the next step.  In Peter Reinharts book it mentions to convert it to a whole wheat sourdough starter you mix 10.5 oz whole wheat or whole rye flour, 8 oz Filtered or spring water and 3.5 oz of your seed culture.  Mix these ingredients in a stand mixer with paddle attachment for 1 minute, Then resting for 5.  Mix again for a minute and then into a bowl for it to double in size, letting it rise for 4-8 hours aprox.  Degas the starter and reform it into a ball and tightly cover, storing in the fridge.  After a few hours in the fridge, vent out some of the carbon dioxide and reseal.  Good for up to 3 days, after which you will need to refresh it. 

reyesron's picture
reyesron

let me get this straight:  I don't have a starter, I have a seed culture?  And in order to actually have a starter, I do what you directed?  which sounds a little like a poolish, no? 

The Breadtopia no knead sourdough:  .75 cup of wheat; 2.25 cups of bread flour; 1 1/2 cups of water with a 1/4 cup of starter mixed in, and 1 1/4 tsp of salt.  (No sponge, biga, pate fermente, nor poolish.) Joila! bread.  me:  glop (or in retrospect, a wonderul poolish starter).  I've been reading all day, and I got slightly more confused.  The Breadtopia guy went from creating a starter to using it in his bread without a mention of starting a sponge.  Do you see where confusion comes in? 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

reyesron,

If you have a starter you have been working on for 8 days and it doubles every day, you are ready to start feeding it every 12 hours. Using equal weights of water and flour (I use bread flour but AP will be fine), discard all but about 2 Tablespoons of the starter and feed it 100g of water and 100 g flour. Stir well to combine and leave it at room temp. I do this in the morning and again in the evening at the same time roughly. After a few days it will start to double or triple in the 12 hours. At that point, you are good to go.

Eric

ehanner's picture
ehanner

reyerson,

What was happening I believe is that you were feeding your starter in a starvation schedule and it was depleted. The acids become higher than they should be and the dough breaks down and looses strength. Unfortunately this condition passes down to the new dough batch. Once you have fed the starter as I prescribed above a few cycles it will become healthy and stronger. Then you will not have glop, goo or any other form of degraded dough. OK?

Eric

reyesron's picture
reyesron

So Eric,

I have two questions, maybe 3.  If you have a good healthy starter, is that the  same as a seed culture that you and Peter Reinhart refer to?  And if it is, and I followed yours and his instructions into turning it into a barm when I got home today, (which is rising nicely btw about 3 hours later), are you then working from that barm from here out, or do you also have a seed culture that you work from, e.g. breadtopia's no knead sourdough.  Is the breadtopia guy working from a seed culture or a barm, if you've seen the video.  I think he's working from a basic seed culture, or starter.  I guess I'm having a problem with nomenclature today because seed culture and starter would seem to be the same thing, except that now we have PR throw in the term BARM which I haven't come across before in this mystery.  I started a new starter(seed culture) from the BBA this evening as well.

I bake bread daily, so this attempted graduation into the mystical world of sourdough is a respite from it although I am getting complaints from the mouths I feed on a daily basis.  Tonight, in reading both my Hamelman books and my Reinhart books, I think I'm finding two different approaches to sourdough based on their recipes, but I wouldn't swear to it.  

Thanks, Ron 

ehanner's picture
ehanner

If you read and follow (FOLLOW) the directions printed in PR's books or Debra Winks Sourdough 101 posts here, there is no reason to be tossing a new starter because it's dead. Read and understand the feeding schedule. Understand why and when to use pineapple juice. It is a simple operation to start a natural yeast starter IF you understand and follow the directions.

With room temperature feedings in the area of 70F, your 100% hydration starter should easily double or triple in 8-10 hours, when it is healthy. Then and only then will it provide enough rising power to make a normal sandwich loaf. Be patient and care for you culture like it was a cute kitten or puppy. You wouldn't take a new puppy hunting would you?

Eric

Monkeyphish32081's picture
Monkeyphish32081

I do believe I understand why these things are done, such as adding pineapple juice and such.  There are times where situations happen that no one can prepare for.  I mentioned my training at a Culinary school where I attended and that I have read these books front to back countless times to make sure I had an understanding of bread before I started stepping up the knotches attempting to make my own sourdough.  Just as PR mentions, you have to develop a "feel" for the dough and that is exactly what Im doing.  I know I had to throw out the sourdough that i had because it had an "off" scent.  I know a true sourdough starter should smell like a fruity wine and this had a very offensive smell.  Thank you for all your feedback and the only way for me to learn this is to get back on the horse and try again. 

longhorn's picture
longhorn

When one mixes flour and water the bad bacteria initially dominate and will make the slurry bubble actively. Those bacteria produce a wide range of byproducts, some of which can be rather smelly. Lactobaccili are in a minority at first and their action slowly acidifies the slurry. Around day three or four the bubbling typically stops as the pH goes below the threshhold for the bad bacteria. For several days the Lactobaccili continue acidifying the slurry. Wild yeast spores eventually activate and they start growing. And this may be a week or ten days after one starts. They and the Lactobaccili will eventually dominate the starter but there is still sorting out going on for some time as specific strains rise, fall, and stabilize.

The advantage of using pineapple juice is that it avoids the first flourish of bad bacteria that characterize the early days of conventional starters and confuse people by smelling "off" and by having activity stop. (And it may save a few days getting an active culture. There is a natural sequence going on through the whole process.  

Aussie Pete's picture
Aussie Pete

Hi there,

I too kept failing(3 times) with my S/Dough starter till I read the Sourdough lady thread using a pineapple juice recipe. Go to the thread Al has mentioned above. I used this method and haven't looked back.

I have 2 starters........one made and fed on plain white (white all purpose flour) with some wholemeal flours and the other made and fed on a German mixed grain and a light rye flours. Both started on Pineapple juice.

From there I just add what ever flours to which starter I wish to use depending on what flavours I'm chasing. Sometimes I have mixed the 2 starters together. I have found with 2 starters and 3 types of of flours you can chase a various number of flavours and styles.

Don't mistake your moldy smell for your starter starting up. It should be releasing an off beer type of odour. It is a positive sign.

Anyway check out Al's reply above and use the site he has provided.

Good Luck and don't give up................Pete

Monkeyphish32081's picture
Monkeyphish32081

Thanks for all your support...I started up a new one earlier today and Im working on this one being ideal.  I think the one thing that was affecting the sourdough was my pineapple juice (after finding out it was Pineapple juice cocktail).

Monkeyphish32081's picture
Monkeyphish32081

Im Glad to know Im not the only one who has trouble with this.  I understand that it takes time for the lactobacilli to become dominate in the starter and usually this happens at day 4 or 5, but seeing mine was day 11 and still smelling something fierce, I know something was wrong.  The one thing you all should know is that this hasnt discouraged me in the slightest.  I do love a challenge and Im learning so much from such a "simple" action.