The Fresh Loaf

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Sourdough starter

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chuppy's picture
chuppy

Sourdough starter

Hello!

I'm not sure if I'm on the right track or not. I started a sourdough starter that sourdolady gave directions for two days ago. Today is the second day for feeding. Therewas a little runniness to the mix, but that's all. No bubbles or incredible smell. I proceede to mix in the next two T. of room temp. ornge juice and KA organic whole wheat flour. The mix immidiately tightened up into a ball. Is this normal or did I go wrong somewhere?

I thank you all in advance for your response! 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Sounds like level Tbs. of orange juice and heaping Tbs of WWflour.  If so add a little bottled water.   Mini Oven

SDbaker's picture
SDbaker

 

 Hi, what does the OJ do for the starter?  Does it feed the yeast in a way that water does not?  Do you keep adding OJ and water?

 SDbaker

sourdough-guy's picture
sourdough-guy

The idea is that it's there for acidity. I don't think you should keep adding it, there comes a point when you have enough yeasts and Lb's to lower the pH by themselves. I don't think adding anything other than water is that important, it may keep things smelling nice but I've usually got a starter active in ±3-4 days without.  

 

Sourdough-guy

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Sourdough-guy,

I'm on day seven of my starter and there is an incredible aroma of alcohol. The problem I am having is that there seems to be no rise in the mix. I was anticipatin a doubling effect. What am I doind wrong? By the way my kitchen is a constant 70 degrees. Could this be the problem? Thanks for your response.

Chuppy

sourdough-guy's picture
sourdough-guy

Hi Chuppy, if it's smells right but it's not performing try this for me. Take 

  • 1 flat tbs of starter and add it to a fresh bowl, do what you like with the rest, feed it a different way or put it in the fridge for back up.
  • Add 5 tbs of water and add it to the bowl, give it a good whisk. I use my hands, just for fun it's strangely satisfying. That's the Pisces coming out.
  • Add about 10 level tbs of flour

You can make it teaspoons if you like, it doesn't matter.

Now,

  • Take 1 tbs of water and mix in ±2 tbs of flour and compare to the above. They should be the same consistency this woks better with weight measurements but I realise not everyone has scales.

If you have scales do 1:5:5  starter, flour, water. and 1:1 flour and water to compare this will give you a better idea. Then mix both batters together and leave it to sit out on the counter for 12 hours. Take a look in on it every now and again but don't stir it, just let it rise. See what happens. Let me know. If it hasn't doubled in the time but you can see it's rising just leave it til it's doubled.

Let me know your results.

 Sourdough-guy

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Sourdough-guy,

Today is the last day in the process. I will take your advice and give it a try. I'll keep you posted on my progress. Good news, today I bought a digital scale for the kitchen. escali fro target for $30US.

Thanks, chuppy

sourdough-guy's picture
sourdough-guy

Cool, I'm sure you'll have fun using. Look forward to hearing how you get on with it all. 

Sourdough-guy

L_M's picture
L_M

Hi Sourdough-guy,

This sounds like an interesting experiment.... luckily my starter seems to be fine, and I've been quite busy lately so it is resting in the fridge for now, but could you please expain what you are trying to find out in the experiment you asked Chuppy to do? It's always good to know if trouble/slow down sets in!

Thanks

L_M

sourdough-guy's picture
sourdough-guy

Hi L_M,

 

I'm just trying to get some idea about where is starter is at. I suspect that it's close to active but being held back by lack of food and low pH. A good feed will help both these things. When the acid builds up it 'rots' the gluten in the flour making it seem much more liquid than you would expect for that hydration, this will carry over into your bread making a very slack loaf, most who bake by feel just never notice but when you use scales (if you trust your scales) you know there is something else going on. 

 

Sourdough-guy

L_M's picture
L_M

Got the picture now :-))) but there is still something that I don't understand... you said " When the acid builds up it 'rots' the gluten in the flour making it seem much more liquid than you would expect for that hydration, this will carry over into your bread making a very slack loaf ". Isn't introducing all the new flour for the dough, the same as giving the starter a good feed? And, is that what happens if one lets the starter ripen too long before using it in the dough - or are you only referring to a really starved or neglected starter (lets say young and not stable yet or older and long time unfed in the fridge)?

There seems to be so much to learn about sourdough!

L_M

sourdough-guy's picture
sourdough-guy

 Hi L_M,

It is the same as giving it a good feed yes, but you're still adding all that acid to your dough. You won't get rid of the acid you introduce with the starter. That acid will still rot the dough if there's too much of it. You'd have to dilute it quite a bit so much so that there wouldn't be enough organisms to leaven your dough. 

 

Any starter that looks more liquid than when it was mixed has been proofed too long. I know there are people out there that like to use there starter mainly as in ingredient, but I like to use at as a leaven the traditional way.

Sourdough-guy

L_M's picture
L_M

Hi Sourdough-guy,

This may just confirm the reason some of my former loaves came out as very sour bricks, that took forever to rise if at all.

I've just set up a little test as well and I'll check the consistancy of the starter vs the flour water mixture at the end of the 12 hours. I'm quite sure my current starter is fine but it'll be nice to know for sure.

L_M 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

That could explain my last SD loaf. It was too sour and never made it up.  Very dense and pasty loaf.  This is interesting.  I had noticed the loaf getting wetter as time went on.  Adding more flour at this over developed stage would have help things but still make a very sour loaf.  So if I like very sour, that would be the way to go.  Less sour, catch it before the acid rises...Thanks.   Mini Oven

SourdoLady's picture
SourdoLady

You can add a bit more juice if needed. All flours absorb different amounts of moisture. The consistency isn't critical but I think the yeasts grow better when making a new starter if it is a bit wetter than you describe. It should be stirable but not runny.

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Got it! I added 1.5 more Tbs. of juice and the consistancy was stirable. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for the help! 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

 I'm just looking at my starter (Sourdough Breakfast with Sourdolady on Lang Yashan Mountain with Oat flowers in her Hair)  trying to decide if it's coming back to life.  I think we have a race on.  Wanna race Chuppy?   I'm also working with orange juice but with all pourpose flour hoping to change my starter to wheat from oats at the Tbsp level.I will sort of stand back and try not to butt in.  Good Luck!  

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Your on Mini Oven! Actualy, I'll be impressed if my starter actualy works. I'm a bit on the edge of my seet wonder what will happen next. In fact I stroll by the counter every couple of hours looking for life to appear in my mason jar. I hope you get good result.

Chuppy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Hey Chuppy!  I've lost you.  Come back with your comments.  How was day 4?  I was looking at mine today (loosely covered with plastic wrap) and see little bubbles and it tends not to separate.  No difference in height.  I am temped now to add another tablespoon of flour to thicken it up and see if the bubbles come back and maybe raise it.  Mini Oven

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Mini Oven,

It's like there sre little bubbles comming to the top of the mix. Not a lot, but enough to give me some hope. Is this also your fourth day?

Chuppy

SourdoLady's picture
SourdoLady

Chuppy, are you seeing any life yet? It should be waking up any day now. Give it a vigorous stir several times a day--it seems to help.

Mini Oven, you can thicken up your starter once you see bubbles. It will rise higher when it is thicker.

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Sourdolady,

Your right about the stir. It seems to do something almost natural. It seems that after my post, about two hours later I began to see some real improvement with the bubbles. Now as we speak, I am seeing perhaps 15 larger than before bubbles. It's exciting! I believe my starter is still a starter and I can see my loves are at the end of the tunnel if ya know what I mean. I'll keep you posted. Thanks for your comments.

Chuppy 

chuppy's picture
chuppy

SourdoLady, 

How long was it before you worked with your first starter? The reason I ask is because, maybe I should start with a Biga or even a Poolish for more practice before jumping into a starter. I've dreamed of using a starter for so long that I think I've become a little narrow minded. I would like to scrap the starter for now and move to a Biga or Poolish as mentioned earlier. What do you think?

Chuppy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Now that it is thicker, the bubbles are a little bigger, and the mixture is not separating so I'm not stirring it anymore.  Rise?  I'm not sure but it smells good. I will put it into a glass to watch it better.  
Chuppy, like the Freudian slip, loves <> loaves.  Until tomorrow, Mini Oven

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Today the starter looks thick and ran out of gas.  Right after I posted the above, I poured or scraped it into a glass and in doing so I think I popped all the bubbles.  It did have more after that and then it exausted the food.  I went to bed.  Still smells in order but didn't really rise.  I will take out one Tbs and to it add one spoon flour and one spoon water and keep an eye on it.  The kitchen has 21°c.    --Mini Oven

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Mini Oven,

I took a glance at my starter today and saw that my bubbles were looking great and I also took the advice from someone here to thiken the batch. Most of all what I think has helped is putting the starter in the oven with the light on. If you have the chance to stir your starter it helps. I think the influx of air or oxygen realy helps. By the way your not from around here are you? I find your location incredibly interesting! Keep me posted on the starter.

Chuppy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Well I watched it all day and have to say it is boaring!  Not much rise, maybe 2 mm and I see you managed to post a photo of yours!  (I'm a newbie to computers too.)  Bubbles are there and smell is still in order. Just taking it's time....   Think I'll add 2 Tbs flour and 2Tbs water  (1:2:2) and maybe then I will be able to at least see it.  No separation  which means something is going on. 
What do you mean "not from around here?"  Don't tell me you're one of those people who think the Internet exists only in the USA?  Think global!  Don't mean to give you a bad time.  Yes, I'm enjoying my visit to your planet, thank you.  Real nice people here.  Have you ever wondered what a loaf might look like coming out of an anti-gravitational oven?  Think of the slashing possibilities?   We could talk about "spin" and rises from the middle, and maybe parchment baloons.   Mini Oven

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Mini Oven,

You are a hoot!! I like to meet people who can give alittle humor in life. What's life if you can't laugh a little? In any case my starter is like a dense sort of bubble at this point and I do believe the feeding I just gave this morning should help. I'm hoping that in a few days I can make my first loaf. If you read what Sourdolady said last night, it would appear that everything is in order for a successful starter. I'l keep you posted.....look for my response this evening around 9pm. Indiana time.

Chuppy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I had always wondered what others called people on my planet...  I had heard of a planet of owls...  They cannot bake... although Pooh's friend comes close.  Hey that's what we're missing!  A popular cartoon of bread bakers....the villiage bakers?...or is there one I don't know about?  (Fess up, who out there was thinking of a planet of hooters?)


Meanwhile back in the kitchen....

The starter actually shrunk.  Chuppy, what does that mean to our race?  I added more flour and a little orange juice.  Yes, yes, stirring quite often.  I think my SD died and I'm waiting for a new one....

With your first risen loaf, I will concede and not before!!!    Mini Oven

chuppy's picture
chuppy

I must admit, you are unlike no other life form we have encountered here on the the planet  - flat starter. We anticipate other life forms but from our analysis, you take the cake....or is that bread?

 Any ways, back on earth the starter I have begun smells like strong alcohol but has almost no rise what so ever. The tempeture in my kitchen is a steady 70 degrees. In the oven with the light on, the tempeture floats between 80-90. Sourdolady said this might happen, but I thought it would at least come back to life?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

That's a double negative and so that means I'm normal. Thanks.  But I will take the cake, chocolate please, with butter cream chocolate frosting... Do you deliver?   My cinn. rolls came out wonderful and an oat, potato loaf popped the top off my caserole.  So we are in fine shape for Good Friday.  
Ok the race continues!  My starter is on the counter top and no night light. It's still doing almost nothing so I was looking for excitement and dug out my good starter. Many words  jmonkey had written come back to mind.  I really thought it cool to break up a ball of SD and it broke just like cube yeast.  Gave it a little water and flour and away it went.  Fun! Yes, you know you're a breadbaker when .....you get thrills over such things.    Mini Oven

Kenn's picture
Kenn

I am new to baking bread but am enjoying it. I started a sourdough starter 4 days ago, it was very thin, I added flour to it that made it little thicker like thin pancake batter, it is the same color as pancake batter after I stir daily, I have bubbles and it tastes acidic, am I on the right track? also before I stir it I see some clear liquid on top and stir that in as well. Does it sound as if I have a viable starter. I am a little afraid to use it. Anyone have some helpful advice?

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

EEE  git!  I wouldn't do that unless you spit it out.  Don't answer that.  Sounds like your're on the right track....Mini Oven

Kenn's picture
Kenn

Sourdough-guy thanks, the starter also has a smell like alcohol, my question is do you also stir this back in to the mixture or remove it? Should the mixture ( starter ) be the consistency of 1. pourable, 2. spoonable 3. stiff or 4. does it really matter? I am serious I do not know.

Kenn's picture
Kenn

Sourdough-guy I misread your comment. I now understand what you wrote. Thanks

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Sourdough-guy, thought I'd try your advice for Chuppy. (We have split ends on this thread, one at the top and here.)     Put my 10g of stirred up starter in a bowl and added 50g water and 50g flour (1:5:5)...  Nice mixture, if you stir it fast with a spoon it can form a ball but if you try to spoon it, it's a glop.   Now to wait and watch.   --Mini Oven

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Mini Oven,

How long was it before you worked with your first starter? The reason I ask is because, maybe I should start with a Biga or even a Poolish for more practice before jumping into a starter. I've dreamed of using a starter for so long that I think I've become a little narrow minded. I would like to scrap the starter for now and move to a Biga or Poolish as mentioned earlier. What do you think?

Chuppy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Well, I wouldn't scrap your starter as it reads it's coming along.  Just hang in there. We are still having a race and if you give up, I just might do the same.  But for your own sanity, try other things at the same time.  The yeast is always in the cupboard to save time and stress situations but the fun is experimenting.  "Mad scientist syndrom"  The balance is also fun, you will soon learn a lot about yourself and what it's like to have an obsession ...and... how to let go.  

I can't really pick a formal date for working with a starter,  I remember having "herman" fresh out of college for a while and doing all kinds of bread experiments but nothing formal.  I can't even remember what happened to him.  Most SD's were out of the cookbook, and now I'm not so sure they were SD (sourdough).  I sort of tripped onto some but didn't really value them and lost them almost as soon as I had discovered them.  Now that I'm into phase 3 of my life, I stumbled into the internet and onto this site.   That has been a learning experience in more ways than I can count!  Besides having a good read, I now value a good SD and not regretting it.  It can also be frustrating but learning is fun even if I'm a little slower at it than others.  Naturally the ultimate SD experience is to bake only with self discovered yeasts.  But it doesn't stop there so be warned.   He he he.
in an area where the breads are steamed and sweet and most bread ingredients hard to find, I've rediscovered at least one lesson: that I'm only limited by my own imagination.  It amazes me how much there is to learn and how easy it can be.

Just the other day I was eating in a restaurant and a hot wok like metal pot in a basket was brought to the table.  It was filled with all kinds of crabs, shrinp, shell fish, and assorted fried vegetables and spices.  Along the inside lip of the pot extending to the base or into the peppery sauce were rectangles of dough.  Aparently baked right on the pot, even toasted.  There wasn't much yeast envolved and was more like a thick noodle but it was good and a lot of fun getting it off the sides with chopsticks.  Sometimes a 2 person operation.  SO what am I saying?  There is more to life than sourdough but sourdough is also interesting.   
Mini Oven

SourdoLady's picture
SourdoLady

Don't give up on your starters! How many days old are they now? I think mine was about 2 weeks old when I first used it in dough. I think you guys are almost there. Have you tried adding a tiny bit of vinegar or ascorbic acid (vitamin C)? Sometimes that makes a huge difference. Another thing that sometimes works, and I don't know why, is to pop the starter in the fridge overnight and then take it out the next morning and continue with your normal routine feeding. No matter what, keep stirring and discarding and feeding.

Yes, by all means go ahead and bake some yeasted bread while you are waiting for the sourdough to be ready. You can practice your shaping skills!

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Alright, you convinced me otherwise. I will add the viniger as you say. I must admit this can become a bit tedious. Yesterday was day # 7. Nothing realy changed, but I did discard and feed. I am currently working on the very basic hearth bread in th BB. I've never used a biga before, so this will be interesting. I found it so fast and easy to use my new scales. No measuring cups, glas or other such devices to clean made making bread this morning alot more enjoyable.

Anyways, I will let you know this evening how the viniger worked.

Thanks, Chuppy 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Do you mean how long after starting a starter did I use it in bread?  


One time I took a spoon of starter out to feed and didn't want to waste the rest so I threw it into my poolish for the loaf I was making at the time.  After 10 hours, I finished mixing my loaf but added com. yeast so I have no idea if it would have worked on it's own,  I just thought of it as flavor.  Normally 2 or more weeks old. 


I did get a loaf, that rose on it's own, my first loaf with my Austrian starter.  The starter had up to that point not doubled as expected after feeding it but after 4 hours I used it anyway.  It had bubbles and smelled cheesy, yeasty, sweet and sour.  It worked!  The next time I fed the left over starter, it doubled.  It is nice not to get so stressed out over a starter for a change.  Dry chips to bread? About 6 days.  It's a strong starter so I have to shorten my fermenting times.  I like Susan's method.  --Mini Oven

Ok, it's 4:30 in the afternoon and I got signs of life, bubbles the size of say the "O" on the computer but not lifting much they pop when they reach the surface, maybe one cm. higher.  But I have made bread dough with less. Smells mild sour and flour, and in order. No alcohol smell.  7 hours after mixing 1:5:5.  Now what?  OK checked with the thread at top of page and Sourdough-guy says 12 hours, just let it rise.  Looks like I get to stick it into the fridge overnight.  I'm set up for a winner!   
My instinct says to feed it now and make bread dough in the morning.  Getting too technical drives me almost nuts!  Waiting for it to double seems crazy.  It smells right and that is what I cook with, my nose.  It is 9:30 in the evening.  --Mini

    

chuppy's picture
chuppy

No worries, I haven't lost hope yet! I will be feeding the starter a little viniger like sourdolady suggested. I am working on my first hearth bread using a biga. This is exciting because of the prefermentation method. I used the recipe from the bread bible. I'll let you know how both turn out.

I forgot to mention the other day, I visited a very sweet couple from El Salvador and thier house was filled with a sweet bread smell.......rice bread!! There was not alot of rise in the bake. Usualy in the Latin American bread there isn't a lot of rise, but the smell was terific!

Ciao, Chuppy  

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Rice Bread could be also worth investigation.  My mother had given me some recipes from Okinawa and I've seen a very interesting bread made in Java, that was almost clear but amber in color.  You could see every bubble and it's trek upward.  Served cut into slices and dipped into something like pancake syrup.  It smelled like cinnamon rolls.   Goodness knows I have an endless supply and variety of rice flours!  --Mini Oven

sourdough-guy's picture
sourdough-guy

 Sounds like gluten free bread I made Mum. It was more like crumpets than bread but nice, sourdough too, nothing like the gluten free bread she bought though, that's not a good thing by the way. : -) I only gave up on the venture because the starter started to stink but now I know to work through that phase. 

Sourdough-guy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Chuppy, I think we are about 12 hours difference.  China has no DST and is in one time zone so the sun comes up pretty early now.  Checking on the starter,  my instincts were right but waiting over 12 hours did no real harm.  I have a cool kitchen so left them on the counter top.


My Austrian starter had peaked and will use less than 1/5  loaf weight in a recipe.  For me that means for a one kilo loaf or 1000g, I will add less than 200g starter.  When I use 200g, and the starter has gone over the peak, it will only make it too sour, so I will reduce it now to 150g in my recipe OR take 50g of starter add 100g flour and 100g water and let it multiply and start my dough in 4 hours with 200g of starter with just enough left over to continue my starter.   (or do both, I have enough flour and starter)


My new starter is just peaking, so to speed it up, I will take the above 50g/100g/100g or (1:2:2) and apply it to my new starter. 


It looks like I'm set up to make two loaves each with a different starter.  I will have my own race and make comparisons.  It is 8:30 am and three loaves are in the making.  1. 150g Austrian peaked starter   2. 200g Austrian starter    3. 200g Chinese Breakfast starter   All with same ingredients and weights.--Mini Oven

L_M's picture
L_M

Can't wait to hear the results....sounds like you are going to have a lot of bread on your hands!

L_M

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Well I have the results but I'm having a hard time writing, transfering what I wrote in to this little box.  Guess I'm not technical enough.  When I copy and paste, I start out very grey and at a -3 rating!  yikes!  Also my table gets scewed.  What's the trick? --Mini Oven
At least I've got lots of bread to chew on......

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

doing?  Fall off the planet?  Got any aliens?  Mini Oven

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Mini Oven,

Yes, many planets and aliens were I am at right now. Actually I'm quite emaressed to say I haven't touched dough in about 5 days. I'm trying to finish term papers.

In the most unfortunate event, my starter was pitched of the table and broken by my two year old. I had fed the mixture for two weeks strait and nothing really changed for me. I credit that to a lack of experience I suppose.

I have been trying more recipes from the BB. I really like working with the sponge method in bread baking. It is a very dense and high quality result. One of the most crucial aspects for me happens to be the shaping. If I can shape the loaf better my bread heart will completelystay together. In any case I am really enjoying the sponge method and will continue to progress........I'll post pictures of my results.

Ciao, Chuppy 

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

That takes presidence.  Are you at Perdue?  I was there many years ago for a Youth Jamboree, "Joy for You and Me"   Sang in the band.  Anyway, I did get my starter to loaf.    Am posting my results.    --Mini Oven

chuppy's picture
chuppy

Negative, I am attending a community college until my 60 credits are up and I can tranfer to Notre Dame or Indiana University.

I read your comment about the two sourdoughs, were you pleased, frustrated or just having fun? Does the orient provide good climate along with the quality or ingrediants necesary for creating good loaves?

See you in space, Chuppy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven



I've been racking my calcified brain trying to figure out the best way to present my little experiment.  It started in the comments above.  Set up by testing a new starter with a (1:5:5) ratio (starter: water: flour) in the morning and by afternoon, my second older starter was also being tested.  Also (1:5:5)  just for fun.  When the 12 hours were up to test the starter, both starters were at same foamy bubbly stage.  I left them out on the countertop in my 20-21°c kitchen overnight. (This is when I should have put them into the fridge but I didn't.) 

The plan was to make three one kilo loaves: 1) with an over-ripe Austrian starter, 2) with a refreshed Austrian starter and  3) with a new refreshed (oat starter converted to wheat) Chinese Breakfast starter.   2) and 3)  will be racing each other.

  

That was the plan, this is what happened.

 

The next day, I started measuring but somehow threw out too much Chinese Breakfast starter before I realized my mistake.  No problem, refresh again to get the right amount for my recipe.   And from what I'd been reading, an extra refreshment wouldn't hurt anything, probably help things a bit.  In looking over Susan's Recipe I thought I would add a sponge or preferment to the 2) and 3) loaves by  dividing the water and flour adding egg white,sugar, salt and oil after preferment time was up.

 

 

Recipe:            1)         2) 3)          sponge/ loaf

 

Starter               150g       200g

egg white           40g         40g

water                300g       275g         (250g,25g)

salt                  10g         10g                (salt seemed too low)

sugar                10g         10g

olive oil           15g         15g

flour                500g       475g         (250g,225g)

total 1025g        

 


I went ahead and mixed my ripe Austrian starter into dough and started to wait, and wait, fold and wait, fold and wait.   Put it into a proofing bowl and I panicked around 4:00 in the afternoon and added commercial yeast softened in a little water.  It was Saturday and I needed bread for Easter.  Let it rise, knocked it down, split into 1a) and 1b),  shaped and proofed in two lined bowls for two 500g loaves.  By 10:00 pm  1a)  went into the oven.  Meanwhile I had already mixed my preferment (1:1.25:1.25) for loaves  2) and 3) and put them into a 18°c room overnight.

 

 Note:  Ratio is (starter:water:flour) In the recipe water, oil and egg are combined.  Flour is AP Chinese white flour sold for steamed buns and cakes and low protein so one egg white has been added to the recipe for better handling and rising of dough.   Following (ratios) are ( amounts) and then hours that  mixture has been allowed to stand, covered. 


1)Austrian (1:5:5) (20g:100g:100g)  5+12 hours  (1:2.4:3.3)  (150g:355g:500g) 6.5 hours (9g c.yeast + 10g water)  6 hours  Baked

 

2)Austrian (1:5:5) (20g:100g:100g)  5+12 hours  (1:2.5:2.5) (20g:50g:50g)  4 hours  (1:2:2)  (50g:100g:100g)  7 hours (1:1.25:1.25) (200g:250g:250g)  11.5 hours overnight  (1:0.11:0.32)  (700g:80g:225g) 12 hours   Baked 

 

3)Chinese B (1:5:5) (10g:50g:50g) 12+12 hours (1:2.5:2.5) (20g:50g:50g)  5 hours  (1:2:2) (50g:100g:100g) 7 hours  (1:1.25:1.25) (200g:250g:250g)11.5 hours overnight (1:0.11:0.32)  (700g:80g:225g)  13 hours    Baked

 

 

Upon awakening (Easter), ran to my preferment and could see that the Austrian was twice as high as the Chinese Breakfast.  The Chinese Breakfast had not risen much.  Now here I'm are supposed to wait for Chinese Breakfast to catch up and double and loose the race, right?  Wrong!  Today I have to suddenly go off on a day trip and will be back in the evening.   The SD's will be on their own today and I will see what's up in the evening  so I added the rest and remaining ingredients, kneaded and cuddled them a little and stuck them into a 17° room for the day. 

 

When I returned, I folded them and parked them over bowls of warm water ( cool  enough that I could hold my hand underwater without jerking away).  Folded again and let dough rise over warm water:  loaf 2) in glass 2.5 casserole,  loaf  3) ceramic 2.5 casserole.   I was not too happy with the dense sour loaves but did take a picture.  

 

Taste:

1)  Very sour,  ate some for breakfast but not much.  too sour.   Getting more sour as days go by.  The dogs want to know when they get it.  

2)  Sour, but  dense.  Prefer a little less sour.  Flavor not same as first loaf with this starter 3 weeks ago.   Tasty crust.   The better of the three loaves   Four days old still edible.   Still would not brag with this loaf.  Hubby won't  eat it.  

3)  Sour, but rather bland.  Prefer a little less sour.  Has a little more flour taste than the other loaves.  Big bite of four day old bread creates a ball of dough in mouth. 

 

Other observations:

In mixing two starters with equal ingredients, identical bowls, spoons, etc., I couldn't help but notice the differences the starters made in stirring and kneading.  The texture of the starters were different and carried through to the preferment and dough.  The Austrian starter had more stretch and was coarser.  The Chinese B. starter creamier and thinner with a flatter texture.   They were so different, that if I took the labels off, I would still know which was which.

 

I doesn't help that my new mini oven has a cold spot in the middle on the bottom on the oven.  I  was having trouble getting loaves out of my casserole.  When looking at cut loaf pictures it is easy to see that the bubbles start at the outside bottom and move toward the middle,  this results in wedging the loaf in the pot, volcano shaped tops and under-developement of the bottom center of loaf.  The ceramic casserole was parked onto a dark metal disk on the rack, glass not, too dangerous.  Lids were left on until loaf was done otherwise top would burn.  Picture forth coming.  Somewhere along the line I mixed up ratios, instead of using (starter: flour: water)  I used (starter: water: flour)  this was consistant in this work because it makes sense to add water before flour.

 

 Mini Oven

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I decided to refrigerate my starters for a while and amazed how fast  a hooch formed on top, maybe I've been leaving my starters out at room temp too long.  Now that I know that my low protein flour is like KA 00 Italian, I've been searching around and negative comments on the flour sound all to familiar.  I have limited choises and must make the best of the situation. (Bake a cake instead.) So.... playing with my starters,  I've been refreshing 10g starter + 50g flour + 50g water  or (1:5:5)  letting them sit out in my kitchen for about 6 hours and then parking them in the fridge.  Been doing that for about a week and must say they look nice. Since my flour turns to pea soup anyway, I don't notice any rising other than an extra milimeter or two of fine foam on the top that is much lighter in color and starts at the meniscus and slowly covers the top,  tiny pearly bubbles under the surface reminding me of tapioca pudding.  Chinese Breakfast having the larger of these bubbles.  
Yesterday, i took them out at lunch time and gave them lunch, instead of taking out 10g and feeding, I just set them on my scales and added 20g flour.  They thickened up real fast but still soft and in about 2 hours had peaked, Austrian naturally taller, and put them into the fridge.  They will have to survive the weekend alone so I'm starting early and plan on taking 20g starter each and mixing with enough flour to make a billiard ball, then refrigerate.  They will probably flatten out but not rise.  I predict they will turn themselves into something like cake yeast after about a week.  
The guy who tampered with his oven for love of pizza, wrote some interesting things making me think I'm going about this process backwards.  I would like to try first chilling the fresh fed starters for a few days, then warming them up and allowing yeasts to multiply for use.  The long chilled starter have a better flavor but under-developed yeast.  --Mini Oven

audra36274's picture
audra36274

there is no hope for me. I think I learned a lot reading your threads today. (catching up while the kids are at grandma's, which ain't often) I think minioven and chuppy, the more I learn, the less I know. Oh well, as they say, it's the journey not the destination....

                                                                                     Audra

redivyfarm's picture
redivyfarm

Audra, I must share that I too, am nurturing Sourdough Lady's starter formula but there is absolutely no drama in my kitchen. The starter is one week old and it does just what it is supposed to do.

New and Old Starters

New and Old Starters

I really enjoyed following the installments of the Chuppy/ Mini Oven fusion of Star Wars and Babette's Feast. I was dismayed when the heathen vandal destroyed Chuppy's chance at victory for once and for all. We can hope for a sequel!

I would encourage you to try the rye sourdough starter if you can keep those vandals in check!  I used Bob's Red Mill Dark Rye flour purchased from a store that moves a lot of flour so it should be fresh. I substituted fresh squeezed grapefruit juice because I had grapefruit on hand. I also had frozen pineapple juice that I chose not to use because it is sweetened and the starters I've made with much sugar go to alcohol and/or get bitter. I'm not sure if this starter success is the result of good chemistry or good Karma.

My white starter is a potato water and dry yeast formula that is now about 9 months old and remains wonderful in spite of a lot of neglect.

Sourdough is some of the best fun you can have in the kitchen and as you can see it makes for a great storyline!

audra36274's picture
audra36274

This bread business will not get the better of me! I have thrown away enough bread to feed a small villiage, to finally have some turn out right is all worth it. It's sorta like having kids, about half the time they get on your nerves, but as soon as they are out the door, you can't wait till they're home. I'll not give up. And I try to write down my changes each time- like that will  maybe help. But I try so much, I can't always remember what I did, so down on paper it goes. Now if I could remember what I did with that darn paper!

                                                                                     Audra

sourdough-guy's picture
sourdough-guy

Hi audra36274,

You could always Blog it. That way it'll always be there. Helps focus your mind too. Doesn't matter if anyone reads it but I'm sure they will. : -) Some folks'll.... lol. only joking. 

 

Sourdough-guy

audra36274's picture
audra36274

I have gotten so many things going, that I forget which cookbook I got the idea from. I "lost" some of my favorites last year because of it. I printed my favorites lately and put them in a notebook. I had them stored in the computer and a while back a thumder storm took out my computer while I wasn't home, so there went all I hadn't gotten around to printing, but a blog can be retrieved. Thanks for the idea.

redivyfarm's picture
redivyfarm

If the planets are aligned correctly the following link will take you to the excellent instructions of SourdoLady for building a starter.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/233/wild-yeast-sourdough-starter

I haven't mastered the simple ways to insert a link as of yet.

sourdough-guy's picture
sourdough-guy

Inserting a link if you're on a pc couldn't be easier, you select the text you want to be clickable then click on the chain icon, then just paste you link in the top line. Done.

If you're on a Mac using Safari, it is a bit more complicated, I think it works better in Firefox, but I don't use that very often so use a shortcut to type in a template tag-to-blank-page link for myself. You need Typeit4Me for that.

Sourdough-guy

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

giving up.  Sometimes I go on and on but please don't get too mixed up and think this is complicated.  It's not.  I'm good at going off on tangents.  I'm a confessed experimentor and even in making billiard balls (reference to size & density only), I came up with two of each starter. (the more to experiment with)   Speaking of which.... I ended up with 20g of starter: 40g water: 100g flour  for each billiard ball.  Now I'm off looking for JMonkey's NY SD before I forget what I want to do.  

I still have to solve my oven heat distribution problem.  I can put my stainless stone on the bottom, it works quite well, with parchment, but not with a casserole (danger of super nova.)  If I use a long preferment, my flour gluten can't hold out and I get moon rocks. so far the best solution FOR ME is to make sourdough bread with a combination of starter and commercial yeast.  That is accepted fact in MY kitchen.  So the idea behind the billiard balls is to develope flavor in the starter, add to a poolish and then develope the yeast like it was cake yeast.  I think.  or Just crumble into 60g water, and let it warm up and foam (sponge) and use the right amount in JMonkey's recipe.  Then chill overnight and bake in the morning.  Anyone who could actually follow that can make suggestions.   

Come to think of it; isn't NASA developing an oven for the space lab?  I bet bread baking would clean up that wet dirty sock aroma they have up there!  SD sock starter anyone?  Could that be an invection oven?  If you put a steel ball into the middle of the dough to attract the heat and bake it, would that mean the crust is on the inside?  Something to think about.....Mini Oven

audra36274's picture
audra36274

Mini Oven, everybody really enjoys your Tales From the Fermenting UnderWorld! I also try to look at things with a sence of humor. I was doing rolls several weeks back, and they were finished their second rise and were ready to be baked for dinner. I went to pick up my 4 year old (only a few blocks from my home) oven should be ready by the time I get back, hubby will be home in about half an hour, right on schedule! no. Emily ran inside, dropped her coat on the floor, and as she ran through the kitchen she went right over to the rolls waiting to go into the oven, and as I yell she takes her hands and goes pop, pop, pop, very quickly and very hard on the top of each one. She looked at me and smiled her biggest smile, and said that was fun mama and ran off to play. I let them rise the best I could in the time I had, but mine never look the same after they've had a , let's say an accident! There has been lots of accidents. But I have just enough ones that come out right to keep me going and not give up. The THREE that have been textbook perfect, have been recent. I'm just glad I found you guys! I'm not alone in this battle! Boy I really look up to the people in bakeries now more than ever! But I guess if we had $3500.00 proofing chambers, and humidity control regulators, we might have a higher percentage of sucesses. But I believe the old saying "Its the journey, not the destination". Hey I read somewhere on here your going to Shanghi this weekend. Be careful, and have a good time. I hope you find a lot of baking goodies! There's always room for just one more thing!

                                                                                   Audra

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

Those aren't accidents, That's personality!   And your personality creator will be helping you one day.  I think she's saying she wants to help now.  You show me a 4 yr old that doesn't want to play with dough!  (She must have seen you do the poke test.)  Thanks for the good wishes.  In my searching for maybe a women's club that might know where I can find bread flour, I stumbled upon a new expatwomen.com  very interesting.   I am not the only alien!  It's a funny thing when I'm on this site, this one, just before I hit the (post comment) button a melody pops into my head.....  (BeeGees) ...and she had fun, fun, fun, til her daddy took the T-bird away ay ay   .... Have Fun  Mini Oven

audra36274's picture
audra36274

She does love to play in the dough, and I always save her a piece just for her. She likes it far better than the childrens Playdough that comes in a can. She gets her tools and rolls and squishes, and lets its rise a thousand times. You know, she will probably be a better baker than me, because as a child she will experiment freely. after reading your blogs and such, there is a bit of child still in your heart Mini Oven! I envy you, you free spirit! Maybe if I keep listening to ya'll, I too will loosen up a bit. Motherhood should not only be about: eat your vegetables, and pick up your things, but about blowing bubbles, and staying out roasting marshmellows till the bugs have carried you away! Doctor, heal thyself. You have inspired me today. I will go and mix up a bit of starter, and get the kids ready and go out and play all day. Who cares if sandbox sand is in my undies at the end of the day, I don't have on any makeup, and the house is a toy strown mess. I can clean tomorrow; tomorrow is another day (in my best scarlett o'hara voice) !

Paddyscake's picture
Paddyscake

 At the risk of showing my age...That was the Beach Boys..not the BeeGees  ;-)

Mini Oven's picture
Mini Oven

I guess I'm more calcified than I thought. Maybe I better head for the sandbox too.  Or get more WW and Whole grains in my diet.  Too much of this refined white flour is mucking up my brain.   Thank you, Mini Oven